Curse

jesh · Jan 24, 2007, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Mend Condition has a recharge of 2.
Mend Ailment has a recharge of 5, but can target the caster.
Restore Condition {E} has a recharge of 2, and removes all conditions.
Mending Touch has a recharge of 4, but removes 2 conditions and is touch range.
Signet of Malice has a recharge of 5, and costs no energy.
Remedy Signet has a recharge of 4, same for this one.
Plague Touch has a recharge of 0.

Two monks and another caster removing conditions is not uncommon. Tell me again how weakness can be applied faster than removed.
It just occured to me this is another point in Melandru's favor. Haha.

If any team worth it's salt could keep a condition on a target, then you would see a lot more of Dazed in GvG, wouldn't you?

Effigy · Jan 24, 2007, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Meet my friend, "It's just a flesh wound."

5e, instant cast, 1 sec recharge, removes all conditions? Yes, please.

By the way, guys, the sky is falling.

Sir Mad · Jan 24, 2007, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

Mend Condition has a recharge of 2.
Mend Ailment has a recharge of 5, but can target the caster.
Restore Condition {E} has a recharge of 2, and removes all conditions.
Mending Touch has a recharge of 4, but removes 2 conditions and is touch range.
Signet of Malice has a recharge of 5, and costs no energy.
Remedy Signet has a recharge of 4, same for this one.
Plague Touch has a recharge of 0.

Two monks and another caster removing conditions is not uncommon. Tell me again how weakness can be applied faster than removed.
It just occured to me this is another point in Melandru's favor. Haha.

If any team worth it's salt could keep a condition on a target, then you would see a lot more of Dazed in GvG, wouldn't you?

No, because Dazed cannot be spread as often as weakness. Compare it to crippling if you wanna compare it to a condition used in PvP, or blindness. And yes, you see that a lot. As said by Evisold before, covering a condition is easy. So is reapplying it. If dazze is uncommon, it's because of the recharge time and energy cost of the skills causing this condition (and the unreliability of some of them actually).

BaconSoda · Jan 25, 2007, 12:33 AM // 00:33

I hate to say this, but some people are really throwing a hissy around about a new game element that can, and probraly will, change the game.

Ranger being my first class since April 2005, I know full well how much help Expertise is, and how high of energy cost good ranger skills are. What eactly was it's counter before? Quickening Zhepher? That's right, nothing. Energy storage has a counter, exaustion. Divine Favor has a counter, Scourge Healing, Defile Flesh. Fast Casting has a counter, Arcane Corundrum, Frustration, Migraine. Strength has a counter, Evade/Blocking. Soul Reaping, doesn't have a counter at the moment, but that's alright, Anet will think of it later. Spawning Power's counter is any possible dmg. Critical Strikes, Stoneflesh Aura, Block/Evade. Leadership.....I think Paragons are underpowered anyway. Mystycism, Enchant strips and Energy Draining.

Now we can add Expertise to that list, with Weakness. Soul reaping is affected too, but to a lesser extent. But like all those other counters, Weakness is easily averted . Condition removal, c'mon! Weakness was always underpowered anyway! Now it's actually useful. Instead of throwing a hissy, learn how to adapt. We did that with the AoE nerf, we can do it here.

GO AHEAD! CALL ME A NOOB! I DARE YOU! (let the flaming begin!)

Jetdoc · Jan 25, 2007, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

If any team worth it's salt could keep a condition on a target, then you would see a lot more of Dazed in GvG, wouldn't you?

I can't think of a skill that can apply Dazed once every five seconds...

Sir Mad · Jan 25, 2007, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

I can't think of a skill that can apply Dazed once every five seconds...

The only one is concussion shot. How much does it cost exactly? Rangers have 3 pips of regen - a necromancer with 20ish more energy, one more pip of regen, and Soul Reaping for extra energy management can spam Weakness as often, for only 5 energy. And Concussion Shot only dazes the target if you interrupt something. Most of the skills causing weakness, including the Enfeeble(s) are not conditional.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaconSoda

I hate to say this, but some people are really throwing a hissy around about a new game element that can, and probraly will, change the game.

Ranger being my first class since April 2005, I know full well how much help Expertise is, and how high of energy cost good ranger skills are. What eactly was it's counter before? Quickening Zhepher? That's right, nothing. Energy storage has a counter, exaustion. Divine Favor has a counter, Scourge Healing, Defile Flesh. Fast Casting has a counter, Arcane Corundrum, Frustration, Migraine. Strength has a counter, Evade/Blocking. Soul Reaping, doesn't have a counter at the moment, but that's alright, Anet will think of it later. Spawning Power's counter is any possible dmg. Critical Strikes, Stoneflesh Aura, Block/Evade. Leadership.....I think Paragons are underpowered anyway. Mystycism, Enchant strips and Energy Draining.

Now we can add Expertise to that list, with Weakness. Soul reaping is affected too, but to a lesser extent. But like all those other counters, Weakness is easily averted . Condition removal, c'mon! Weakness was always underpowered anyway! Now it's actually useful. Instead of throwing a hissy, learn how to adapt. We did that with the AoE nerf, we can do it here.

You miss the point. First the new effect of weakness doesn't affect rangers only. What about a warrior with suddenly -20 AL because he no longer has 13 strength for example?

And it's not about countering the primary attribute of rangers, and actually the examples you quote are kinda flawed. You're saying the only counter to expertise is QZ so it doesn't count. But the only counter to Divine Favour you mention does? You're saying the counter to Strength is block/evade. Why doesn't it count for Expertise to then? If you dodge and arrow, or kite, then expertise doesn't matter as well... Stripping enchants as a counter to Mysticism? But you get energy and health when the enchantement is stripped, which is the point of the attribute. etc.

BaconSoda · Jan 25, 2007, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Mysticism is countered because you might not get the energy/health when you want it. QZ is just awful towards everyone, not rangers in particular. In fact, rangers get the most benifit out of QZ, because f expertise. Not everyone wears Sentinal's armor also. My strength never goes above 8 personally. Tactics shields FTW! Block/Evade desn't affect it since you still saved energy from the skill. Thanks for dazed arguement also, counters FC as well. Geez, what if I am a noob and everything i said here means nothing. That's exactly why i wrote that comment at the bottom. Everyone these days fights to their last breath to defend their beliefs....We're all so fanatical in them. It's like these games are our religions or something.....

Evilsod · Jan 25, 2007, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaconSoda

I hate to say this, but some people are really throwing a hissy around about a new game element that can, and probraly will, change the game.

Ranger being my first class since April 2005, I know full well how much help Expertise is, and how high of energy cost good ranger skills are. What eactly was it's counter before? Quickening Zhepher? That's right, nothing. Energy storage has a counter, exaustion. Divine Favor has a counter, Scourge Healing, Defile Flesh. Fast Casting has a counter, Arcane Corundrum, Frustration, Migraine. Strength has a counter, Evade/Blocking. Soul Reaping, doesn't have a counter at the moment, but that's alright, Anet will think of it later. Spawning Power's counter is any possible dmg. Critical Strikes, Stoneflesh Aura, Block/Evade. Leadership.....I think Paragons are underpowered anyway. Mystycism, Enchant strips and Energy Draining.

Now we can add Expertise to that list, with Weakness. Soul reaping is affected too, but to a lesser extent. But like all those other counters, Weakness is easily averted . Condition removal, c'mon! Weakness was always underpowered anyway! Now it's actually useful. Instead of throwing a hissy, learn how to adapt. We did that with the AoE nerf, we can do it here.

GO AHEAD! CALL ME A NOOB! I DARE YOU! (let the flaming begin!)

Why bother. Your asking for it, its no fun then.

Your counters are awful. But i seriously can't be arsed to list faults.

Also Dazed is a very priority condition... if a monk is dazed. What are you gonna remove first? Blind off the warrior or Dazed off the monk?

lennymon · Jan 25, 2007, 01:08 AM // 01:08

did anyone mention that [skill]Mending Touch[/skill] is rumored to be affected by expertise as a touch skill?

Amy Awien · Jan 25, 2007, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaconSoda

Energy storage has a counter, exaustion.

That is not even a counter, but the caster's choice to use a spell that causes it.

Quote:

Divine Favor has a counter, Scourge Healing, Defile Flesh.

Nope

Quote:

Fast Casting has a counter, Arcane Corundrum, Frustration, Migraine.

Affects all equally.

Quote:

Strength has a counter, Evade/Blocking.

Affects all attacks, not only strength.

Quote:

Soul Reaping, doesn't have a counter at the moment

The whole 'counter' POV doesn't make to much sense to me anyway. Countering is about skills, not attributes.

[/quote]Spawning Power's counter is any possible dmg. [/quote]

And that is the silliest of all, like saying damage is the counter to runes of vigor, or even your character's existance.

You've been driving the counter-POV into the absurd. Nice try, but it's not a usefull aproach, counters is about skills and their interaction, not attributes.

[quote]Critical Strikes, Stoneflesh Aura, Block/Evade. Leadership.....I think Paragons are underpowered anyway. Mystycism, Enchant strips and Energy Draining.

Quote:

Weakness was always underpowered anyway!

Hold on, 66% taken from physical damage is not underpwered.
And isn't bleeding underpowered? Is poison not underpowered when compared to burning? The more power an effect has, the harder it should be to apply. The (proposed) change to weakness makes it more powerfull, but it is still as easy to apply as always.

And the effect is unbalancing. Some - already underrepresented - classes are far more affected then others. The possible effect on balance should be carefully looked at and the this whole change looks a bit ad-hoc.

Amy Awien · Jan 25, 2007, 01:17 AM // 01:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaconSoda

Everyone these days fights to their last breath to defend their beliefs

Look at yourself first, It didn't help opening your post with calling this concern "throwing a hissy".

lennymon · Jan 25, 2007, 01:27 AM // 01:27

we should change the title of the thread to weakness overnerfs our beloved touch ranger build due to energy constriction

yes, weakness as presented over the weekend was abused, people will develop counters I'd guess, and I'd further postulate that due to some clear abuses involving this condition it may be that this exact change will not be adopted. I'd also like to point out that the thread here will do nada if the goal is to block this particular change. I think either there probably already is a thread discussing this issue in the test weekend forum or there should be. I think we got us some very good points in this thread, on either side....like this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amy Awien

T
Hold on, 66% taken from physical damage is not underpwered.
And isn't bleeding underpowered? Is poison not underpowered when compared to burning? The more power an effect has, the harder it should be to apply. The (proposed) change to weakness makes it more powerfull, but it is still as easy to apply as always.

While as I've posted that my personal opinion is that the mechanic change isn't life threatening (in the form of suicide induction), this is a good point. Weakness would in fact be strengthened by this change and perhaps a de-spamification is warranted. Keep in mind how readily blind can be spread though, and which IS worse? The old weakness IS quite good against melee oponents... but it didn't effect skill damage.

Falconer · Jan 25, 2007, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaconSoda

Ranger being my first class since April 2005, I know full well how much help Expertise is, and how high of energy cost good ranger skills are. What eactly was it's counter before? Quickening Zhepher? That's right, nothing. Energy storage has a counter, exaustion. Divine Favor has a counter, Scourge Healing, Defile Flesh. Fast Casting has a counter, Arcane Corundrum, Frustration, Migraine. Strength has a counter, Evade/Blocking. Soul Reaping, doesn't have a counter at the moment, but that's alright, Anet will think of it later. Spawning Power's counter is any possible dmg. Critical Strikes, Stoneflesh Aura, Block/Evade. Leadership.....I think Paragons are underpowered anyway. Mystycism, Enchant strips and Energy Draining.

Now we can add Expertise to that list, with Weakness. Soul reaping is affected too, but to a lesser extent. But like all those other counters, Weakness is easily averted . Condition removal, c'mon! Weakness was always underpowered anyway! Now it's actually useful. Instead of throwing a hissy, learn how to adapt. We did that with the AoE nerf, we can do it here.

GO AHEAD! CALL ME A NOOB! I DARE YOU! (let the flaming begin!)

Fine... this shows that you don't realize that the counter to a ranger is e-denial. It's the rangers achilles heal, and the one most people don't realize. Though, rage as one, has started to clue some people into this moreso.

Expertise is a double edged sword, it both amplifies a small starting supply and an inferior regen rate. But by the same token it also amplifies energy denial. If I burn 8 energy off a caster w/ their 50'ish pool... they don't care, even if they are running on regen... 8 energy is less than the average 10 energy cost of a spell. But that 8 energy to a ranger reflects the energy to activate 1 or 2 skills and is far harder to deal with. It's just as damaging to a warriors energy bar as well, but the warrior also has adrenaline making it much harder to deny.

Monks have the same problem, divine favour is very similar to expertise in this aspect, while expertise produces the same effect for reduced cost, divine favour amplifies effect for the same cost. A large reason why monks have never had and never will have top-flight emanagement is simply because they're designed like rangers to be very efficient w/ their starting pools and regen. This is the reason edenial can be so devasating against these two in particular.

Monks also have it better than rangers... 8 energy above is a spell and a half, and they regen 8 faster. Similarly skills which reduce energy regen have less effect, losing 1 pip out of 4 is much less devastating than losing 1 out of 3.

You might say fine... both classes get drained to zero. The ranger has enough energy to do something in 2s. But do what... any effect worth only 2 energy has to have some drawbacks or be fairly weak. In fact, the only two things which commonly pop up in PvP in this grade is distracting shot and trolls (which is legendarily easy to interupt). The vast majority of the PvP rangers bar costs start at 4, 4 energy is 4 seconds regen... it takes a caster less than 4seconds to get back 5 energy, and similarly 6-7s to activate a 15 energy skill like cripshot, is practically the same as the time it takes a caster the time to toss out a 10 energy spell.

I've stated long before that if you want to 'fix/change' the ranger and expertise long term you'd need to reduce the effect AND GIVE THE RANGER 4 pips regen like every other non-adrenal class in the game. As it now the first 8 ranks or so in expertise simply amplify the rangers starting 3 pips to roughly 4 pips the same as all the other casters. It's not until you can get up to the 12-14 regime that it starts to get juicy and functiong as some kind of emanagement in the classic sense of giving you more energy over time than your opposition.

The only reason why thumpers can operate at 9 expertise or so, is because they're using 5 energy skills designed for use by a 2 pip regen class while making their own energy look about 4-5 pips and in some cases also cashing in on adrenaline at the same time. It also is a prime case of highlighting how weak the bow is in comparison to every other weapon and especially the only other ranged counterpart the spear.

However, the problem w/ weakness is that is ALREADY PUNISHED RANGERS. Let me repeat that... everyones going nuts over this new effect. But weakness reduces damage by *66%*. So before you were paying regular price for 66% reduced damage, which made it roughly as valuable as bleed or poison. After this change, you were paying 25-50% more for 66% reduced damage. Since many rangers are so consciously or unconsciously aware of their real energy costs, this of course stoked a lot of angry replies.

Not every condition needs to be blind/dazed strength. Weakness was fine as it was, SPAMMABLE and EASILY APPLIED. And a very strong defensive condition, not as good as blind, but given it's applicability, reasonably strong. The problem was that people still saw themselves getting hit and other secondary effects still being pulled off. Compared to blind they 'think/feel' the condition is worthless in comparison.

One final point to mull over... if rangers ever became game dominant forces. How long would it take spirit shackles to come out of it's semi-retirement. Shackes right now is rediculously broken (lose 5 energy per attack), it can stop a dervish, assassin, or ranger in their tracks.

Buce · Jan 25, 2007, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Ha ha, now my warrior want to thumb those pesky rangers with his devastating hammer, before they cripple him of course. And use deep wound as the cover condition! My warrior has always has a deep-seated hate to the bunny thumpers.

On the same subject anyway, should dazed affect not only spell caster but also the projectile attack? How a dazed person can aimed anyway?

jesh · Jan 25, 2007, 07:28 AM // 07:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jetdoc

I can't think of a skill that can apply Dazed once every five seconds...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Mad

No, because Dazed cannot be spread as often as weakness. Compare it to crippling if you wanna compare it to a condition used in PvP, or blindness. And yes, you see that a lot. As said by Evisold before, covering a condition is easy. So is reapplying it. If dazze is uncommon, it's because of the recharge time and energy cost of the skills causing this condition (and the unreliability of some of them actually).

Why is dazed unreliable? Because you can't cover it even if you want to, not well enough to depend on. If you look at the post I quoted, I said that maybe the weakness skills do need to be increased a little on the recycle time. It matters not too much though, because it's still a condition. Yes, it will add more pressure. So will all the buffs to the hexes that were introduced. Why don't we see more threads whining about that instead? The metagame is changing. I suggest some people learn to cope with it.

If you could cover a condition as well as pretty much everyone in this thread seems to think, you'd see Concussion or Broadhead on every single ranger's bar. Who wouldn't want to take it? It sure would make spikes a lot more successful, wouldn't it? That was my point, not that dazed is comparable to weakness. I don't know how you would get that from what I wrote.

Sir Mad · Jan 25, 2007, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

Why is dazed unreliable?

I was talking about the skills causing this condition. The skill with the shortest recharge time, Concussion Shot, dazes only if you catch a spell. The same goes for Beguiling Haze and Skull Crack. Other skills like BHA won't hit the target if he's moving at all. That's what I had in mind.

And if you check the list of skills causing this condition: http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Daze you will notice the vast majority are elite skills.

Now concerning BHA and Concussion Shot that "would be in every single ranger's ranger's bar", I won't repeat what I said earlier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lennymon

*snip*

Yes that's my opinion as well. I actually find the new effect of Weakness very interesting, and the problem for me doesn't come from it, but from the fact skills causing this condition would be unbalanced with the new effect.

Effigy · Jan 25, 2007, 03:03 PM // 15:03

Naturally, if they keep the changes to Weakness then the related skills will have to be balanced accordingly. This is pretty much a given.

That said, I don't see why it would be a bad thing to have Weakness be a useful condition. And before people start repeating, "But it was useful!," let's get serious. No one ever used Weakness for its own sake. It was used either as a trigger condition for another skill, or it was applied as an added bonus to a skill you were using for some other reason. Weakness has always been the bastard child of the condition world.

If the changes stick it might shake things up a bit and I don't see that as a bad thing. It seems to me that Anet is gradually boosting the pressure and force teams to specialize in how they deal with that pressure. Hexes are getting strong, but mass hex removal is mostly either expensive or elite. Now conditions are getting stronger and while mass removal is comparatively easier, application is also easier. People will have to start making hard choices about whether they want to bring Divert Hexes or Restore Condition, and then they might lose to heavy melee pressure with no overload on hexes or conditions. If your team tries to bring counters to everything, your offense will suffer. The end result, as far as I can predict, is faster-paced gameplay. Teams without adequate counters will break much faster.

This isn't just about Weakness. This is the general trend I see in the evolution of GW. Love it or hate it, that seems to be the way we're headed.

dudeimoncoke · Jan 25, 2007, 03:42 PM // 15:42

I don't know why the hell you people care so much about this. Let's say you are playing pvp and the opposing team has a person dedicated to spamming weakness on everyone (which would be a complete waste of a slot). How long do you think he can keep up spamming enfeebling blood? Probably not very long, so what? The other team brings a bip also? I don't think so.

Either fight with weekness on you or bring a condition removal on either your bar or your monks bar. During the preview weekend I was playing "zergway" or whatever the hell it is and we actually went up against a team with a necro that had enfeebling blood.
If some of you don't know what zergway is it's basically 3 warriors with steady stance and desperation blow and fear me that just run around and kill stuff and 3 paragons who pretty much just spam shouts and heal stuff. Anyway, since we are talking about weakness destroying our breakpoints, lets say that the paragons had 12 in leadership and the warriors had 9 in strength. IF weakness was on everyone constantly then, the paragons would only get 5 max energy from shouts and the warriors would only gain half armor from their shields.
You know what the best counter for the so-called "uber weakness" is? Hmm..try killing stuff? It took a whole 5 seconds to seperate the warriors, 1 per monk and 1 on the necro, and then another 15-20 seconds to kill them. Whether the team was coordinated or not it doesn't matter. If you have someone spamming weakness on you then either:
1)kill him
2)remove weakness
3)Forget about weakness and do whatever you are supposed to do.

There is a reason monks in gvg have those strange secondaries, for example warrior and assassin. Even though it helps them stop those warrior spikes, they can also manage their energy by not using skills whenever they are recharged.
If your expertise gets so messed up by being lowered by just 1 then learn when to use your skills and stop complaining.

Amy Awien · Jan 25, 2007, 08:56 PM // 20:56

I don't really care to spent much time on replying the that came out of the keyboard of some retarded monkey.

Don't come here saying we don't know our skills, retard.

jesh · Jan 26, 2007, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Personal attacks don't help anyone.