Curse

Vexed · Jan 21, 2007, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Amy,

I don't know why you think this affects Rangers more than anybody else. Assassins will lose their Critical Strikes breakpoint, Warriors and Paragons lose the extra defense from shields, even dervs are losing energy return on Mysticism kickback. Those are all just as serious as a Ranger's skills costing 1 more energy, probably more so in many situations. Don't forget casters' hexes, enchants, nukes and heals are all losing efficiency. It hits EVERYBODY.

Even still, at worst it's annoying rather than game-breaking. Weakness doesn't exactly last for ages, either.

I think it's fantastic that they've made this condition actually mean something. Before, I think the only time I ever paid attention to Weakness was using it for knockdowns with my hammer warrior.

Evilsod · Jan 21, 2007, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senrath

Personally, I like the change. It makes weakness actually do something now. But I have to post what one of my friends said about this:

"Oh no! My muscles feel weak and now I can't cast spells right!"

And i'll post what i said in another thread.

"Oh no, i'm dazed *little birdies fly around head*, i can't concentrate enough to use spells..... COME HERE YOU LITTLE BASTARD *charges with hammer*"

Yeah? Perhaps dazed should make attack speed 100% slower too. Would be quite fun, least them when my heros use BHA on warriors/rangers i get a useful effect from it.

Quote:

Even still, at worst it's annoying rather than game-breaking. Weakness doesn't exactly last for ages, either.

Have you ever seen a skill that inflicts weakness? They all (i think) make it last for 21 seconds at lvl16 stat. Not only that. They are all spammable, cheap, low recharge skills. Perhaps we should make Broadhead Arrow sacrifice health and inflict foes nearby foes with Dazed? Sound familiar? Enfeebling Blood?

Quote:

I think it's fantastic that they've made this condition actually mean something. Before, I think the only time I ever paid attention to Weakness was using it for knockdowns with my hammer warrior.

Now i'm starting to think you've never played a char that doesn't cast spells. Why do you think Wearying Strike was given a 10 second weakness? What can a dervish do damage wise when they're weakened? Nothing. Weakness may now be as powerful as Blind is as anti-martial but it lasts alot longer.

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Plus.. its a condition, which is the easiest thing to remove (hell of a lot easier than hexes). Perhaps characters should just "call" (i know.. PvP term) when they have weakness on them.

Sorry, have you ever played a ranger? I'm pretty sure if i used Crippling Shot on you... you'd do what? Remove it instantly? Oops, its been covered with Poison... grats your still crippled. Oh, now your suffering Bleeding and Poison again. What a bummer. Oh your an RC monk? Shame you can't cast it on yourself or i just distracted it. Or perhaps you've gone /Mo and brought Mending Touch/Purge Conditions? Great, i crippled you again and instead distracted Mending Touch. But don't you worry, i'll make sure to bring 2 RC monks with me whereever i go to remove this condition.

You do realise that its just as easy to cover a condition you want on a target as it is to cover a hex don't you? If someone WANTS a condition on you, its VERY easy to ensure it stays there.

If this condition gets implemented i want more attribute points and/or lower breakpoints on skills. My entire Cripshot build would need a rework just because it works entirely on the breakpoints of skills/expertise to be as effective as possible.

Quote:

besides... this change in weakness makes almost impossible solo runs in the UW...

Huh? What inflicts weakness in UW... or are you inflicting it yourself :S

I still maintain that this new weakness is more powerful than most elites in terms of shutting down/draining an enemy.

Am I A Good Sin · Jan 22, 2007, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Wow all u anti-weakness ppl make me laugh. Weakness is a great skill. U throw a fit about 1 energy? What about the 2 handed staff that adds 10 energy at 9 healing? Or the healing ankh? 12 energy at 9 healing. Same scenario. oh no I have weakness on me. Oops there went 10/12 energy. What about all the skills that have a minimum requirement ( such as gale ) 50% failure with 4 airmagic or less. Ill put 5 in air so it works. Oh no I'm weakened. *Gale* eh? It didn't work. I'm screwed >.<
Also this game isn't meant for soloing anyways. U have to work as a team now since u need to add attribute points in case of weakness. OMG! What will I ever do? I HAVE to work with another player!?! Go play FFX12 or something if u wana solo something. Besides have a ranger with high expertise and marksmanship and a bit of wilderness survival. Another ranger with high expetise beast mastery and wilderness survival. Now u have 2 ppl. That's twice as many skills packing more of a punch than a single player with a bit of everything. So to recap
1) weakness forces us to work together
2) evens the field out against an ele and monks on the other team have lesser healing
3) more condition removals
4) less hex time on u
5) less degen from things such as enduring toxin
6) less dmg from warriors or a chunk of health and armour from them as well
Every class gets hit by this. Maybe rangers have it bad but what if u don't have weakness and ur monk does? Who is more important. A monk gets hit with weakness the whole team suffers from less healing. A ranger gets hit. Oh well add extra energy to a skill. Ur the only 1 affected on the team. I think ur just mad cause now ur build sucks cause of that extra energy cost. Am I right? My build isn't affected much. My ranger is but ill DEAL WITH IT. Change my build a bit and geuss what good as new.
Also don't forget u can inflict weakness as ez as the foe can.
Final line
Weakness = good thing

Amy Awien · Jan 22, 2007, 07:36 AM // 07:36

What are you talking about working together for? What does that have to do with it? We've been working together, either with players in PvP or henchies in PvE and that has nothing to do with effect of Weakness.

Did you know that with Critical Strikes at 8 Assassins recieve 2 energy on every critical hit and at 13 they receive 3 points of energy. At 12 they also get 2 energy and that is where Weakness comes into play, by lowering CS from 13 to 12. Wake up.

And raising an attribute from 4 to 5 is hardly comparable to raising it from 13 to 14, or from 14 to 15.

anshin · Jan 22, 2007, 12:23 PM // 12:23

hehe... the UW thing is dumb heh?

the point is... Weakness now sucks... or as Evilsod said... it is overpowered...

but hey... i guess rangers do have it cool... cast time 1 sec of antidote signet ftw

Evilsod · Jan 22, 2007, 03:55 PM // 15:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Am I A Good Sin

Wow all u anti-weakness ppl make me laugh. Weakness is a great skill. U throw a fit about 1 energy? What about the 2 handed staff that adds 10 energy at 9 healing? Or the healing ankh? 12 energy at 9 healing. Same scenario. oh no I have weakness on me. Oops there went 10/12 energy.

Are you a complete idiot? How many skills could you have activated in 21 seconds? Maybe ~5. 1 energy per skill more = ~5 less energy. Staffs don't add energy based on a stat. Focus items do. And as most focus items used are related to the stat your focusing on, chances are its way more than the req of the item. But what if its not? Losing 12 energy for a while seems fair because of a condition? Why not give us a mesmer elite to reduce the foes max energy by X for X seconds... oh wait! Its GAMEBREAKING!

Quote:

What about all the skills that have a minimum requirement ( such as gale ) 50% failure with 4 airmagic or less. Ill put 5 in air so it works. Oh no I'm weakened. *Gale* eh? It didn't work. I'm screwed >.<

= Gamebreaking. I have 5 points in Air Magic. This condition is f*cking everything up so i now have to take off 1 more attribute point elsewhere, leaving me that many spare i can now boost Air Magic to.... 8? I dont need 8, i need 5.

Quote:

Also this game isn't meant for soloing anyways. U have to work as a team now since u need to add attribute points in case of weakness. OMG! What will I ever do? I HAVE to work with another player!?!

Zomg, are you completely ignorant or just plain stupid? Cover conditions? Shutdowns? Or do i have to take an RC Prot with me where ever i go now to shut you up?

Quote:

Besides have a ranger with high expertise and marksmanship and a bit of wilderness survival. Another ranger with high expetise beast mastery and wilderness survival. Now u have 2 ppl. That's twice as many skills packing more of a punch than a single player with a bit of everything.

Are you just throwing random things in here? I'm presuming you just read the title of the thread 'Weakness' and thought you'd come in here to bitch at people. A ranger with high Exp and Marks? Great. Now a ranger with high Exp, BM and WS. What will i do with that? Neither of these rangers can remove weakness without a secondary and can both be shutdown within 5 seconds using Enfeeble. That entire quote paragraph makes no sense and has no connection with anything.

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So to recap
1) weakness forces us to work together
2) evens the field out against an ele and monks on the other team have lesser healing
3) more condition removals
4) less hex time on u
5) less degen from things such as enduring toxin
6) less dmg from warriors or a chunk of health and armour from them as well

1. Weakness always did if you relied on your weapon to do damage.
2. Doesn't effect them as much. An ele loses 3 energy, no more no less.
3. In place of what? More heals/prots? More hex removals? We have 8 skill slots each, not 80.
4. Eh?
5. Again, eh? Who even uses that.
6. Thats from the 66% less damage right? News flash, its ALWAYS been there. The lack of a shield is just lame.

Quote:

Every class gets hit by this. Maybe rangers have it bad but what if u don't have weakness and ur monk does? Who is more important. A monk gets hit with weakness the whole team suffers from less healing. A ranger gets hit. Oh well add extra energy to a skill. Ur the only 1 affected on the team. I think ur just mad cause now ur build sucks cause of that extra energy cost. Am I right? My build isn't affected much. My ranger is but ill DEAL WITH IT. Change my build a bit and geuss what good as new.
Also don't forget u can inflict weakness as ez as the foe can.
Final line
Weakness = good thing

Wow, you made it through the whole thing and wrote 'ez' at the end... now you just look like silly.
A monk would lose out on maybe 7 points of healing, 3 if they're a prot. Which over time is alot. Coincidently theres no reason why weakness would do that.

We've been making new builds thanks to Anets pointless nerfs for a while. Now we have to make builds to work around the ridiculous change to Weakness screwing over breakpoints too?

This weakness is the dumbest thing Anet have ever thought of.

HalPlantagenet · Jan 22, 2007, 03:57 PM // 15:57

As the OP rightly points out, the effect is catastrophic. For all the professions there are useful builds in which carrying the minimal attribute points necessary to support a weapon or off-hand has been valid. Now that is no longer so. The strategic consequence is a restriction in the variety of options available to apply in a given situation. In game development parlance it is "anti-emergent," the opposite of what makes any game interesting and compelling. I'm empathetic to the desire to make weakness a more serious issue; it's hard to imagine this is the best approach.

roselan · Jan 22, 2007, 05:23 PM // 17:23

for me, it's only one more parameter to handle. So I like it, even if it complicates my life.

weakness has just become one of the most mighty condition in the game imo, with blind and daze. Just with more uncertain output... it's a fcking meta-change ^^

anshin · Jan 22, 2007, 08:29 PM // 20:29

yes... me again...

you know... weakness now doesn't help in PvE... because the bad guys don't use breakpoints like we do... but it being something that reduced damage....

have you ever tried to solo the mesmer or necro bosses? they can kill you physically in 5/6 shots of wands because they do over 50 dmg each glowing bubble...

i might be talking trash anyway....

Pick Me · Jan 22, 2007, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Honestly, I think Daze and weakness should be re-worked. I agree with EvilSod that daze should slow down attacks. I mean in reality, you would be able to hit someone when you suffer a concussion as you would without one. I mean the effectiveness just wouldn't be there.

Weakness should affect all non-magical attacks. Normal attacks and attack skills. Touch Skills like Vampiric Touch or signets or pure magic spells/skills should not be effected.

Antidote signet does not remove Weakness.

The Dervish will suffer greatly, unless they can remove their own weakness (there is a skill that causes weakness when used).

Besides, weakness can do more damage when you use other skills too. Some Hammer skills can cause more damge on a weakened foe, Stoning kds them, etc.

Weakness onto itself isn't bad, it really doesn't do much at all. With this new twist, it can be really abused.

anshin · Jan 22, 2007, 10:30 PM // 22:30

my bad... was thinking weakness instead of disease...

LONGA · Jan 23, 2007, 08:30 AM // 08:30

Easy solution.get a rune with -20% weakness duration.

Sir Mad · Jan 23, 2007, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by LONGA

Easy solution.get a rune with -20% weakness duration.

That won't change anything: cf [skill=text]Enfeeble[/skill] for example - check the recharge time

EDIT - And concerning the new effect, I think I could leave with with it, but the spammability of the condition is nevertheless insane and should be changed. Weakness is now as powerfull as blindness or dazze IMO, yet none of those 2 conditions can be spammed as much. People complain about flash bots, but how often can they blind? And for how long? Now compare to skills causing weakness... You need 11 air magic to keep the blindness on 2 targets with blinding flash - with as many attribute points in curse, you can weaken more than 3 targets, for 1/3 of the energy cost. Check also how many skills can cause perma blind, and how many cause perma weakness. A bit unbalanced methink.

Evilsod · Jan 23, 2007, 02:35 PM // 14:35

Exactly. The only thing more overpowering than the fact weakness completely screws with breakpoints is that all skills causing it last forever ages. Dazed can last 21 seconds... and the only 2 skills that can make it last that long are Concussion Shot and Broadhead Arrow. 1 of which if you get hit by in PvP, you deserve it and the other comes at a huge price and still has to interrupt you.
Blind lasts a max of 16 seconds, and thats Throw Dirt (again a ranger skill) with a recharge of twice that. Blinding Surge/Flash are spammable, but come at quite a high price for a ~10 seconds duration. Things like Ebon Dust Aura can be used to make a permanent blind... but Shatter Enchantment can fix that instantly. So can blinding the 1 using it.
And weakness. Enfeeble, 21 seconds, 5 energy, low recharge. Enfeebling Blood, 21 seconds, AoE, small sacrifice in health. Still low recharge. Enervating Charge, reasonable recharge but still spammable, damage, lasts 21 seconds.
All the hammer weakness inflicting skills. Dev Hammer, Staggering, Forceful, all 21 seconds and even the axe skill, Axe Twist at 20 seconds fixed.
Sure they're all adren skills. But Dev is 7 adren, Staggering is 6, Forceful is 5 and Twist is 7.

lennymon · Jan 23, 2007, 04:54 PM // 16:54

Its a great change, weakness prior to this temporary change was the ugly duckling of conditions, was it scary like deep wound or blindness? no. Is having skills cost more worse than not being able to hit because you are blind? no. The fact that weakness never used to do JACK to a caster? Whoopdeedoo! This turns weakness from a 'farmer' only tool into a viable condition in my opinion.

XvArchonvX · Jan 23, 2007, 05:52 PM // 17:52

I ran into a necro in an AB over the weekend (didn't get near as much time to PvP as I hoped, so this may have been more widespread) that was running a build centered on Enfeeble + Parasitic Bond + Discord. It was horribly overpowered imo.

lennymon · Jan 23, 2007, 09:43 PM // 21:43

I don't think it's any more overpowered than any other *3 skill combo*. Seeing as how this IS a ranger forum I'll stick with my personal favorites: distracting shot, concussion shot, read the wind, and plague touch (I know its a great secondary class skill tho). In AB for example when I run cripshot, I also run mending touch and either holy veil or smite hex. It just doesn't make sense to NOT cover your own muscled ranger buttocks in a random arena scene. In a more team build oriented setting, believe in the monk, Heck, go trapper and hold resilient was xiko... (think Melandru's Resilience, but in a held item and it removes conditions when you drop it). The metagame skills *will* change, yes? just adapt, which is after all the ranger strongpoint.

Amy Awien · Jan 24, 2007, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Rangers are already becoming rare, teams don't want them, and they don't need them because they believe other professions have more to bring into the fight. In the longer run, this new Weakness would just be another reason to not take rangers in the team. There is no adapting to that.

jesh · Jan 24, 2007, 05:11 PM // 17:11

The way you adapt is to tell your monk to bring condition removal.
lennymon was right. Now that weakness has some validity to it, people throw a fit about it. It can still be removed just as easily as before. If you're in AB/RA where everyone sucks, then take your own condition removal.
Condition removal is cheap and recharges fast. Why? Because conditions are everywhere.

-=Weakness isn't any harder to remove than it was before!=-

Yes, maybe the weakness causing skills should be toned down a bit compared to the skills that cause other conditions. However, the changes to weakness are a far cry from "game breaking".

HalPlantagenet · Jan 24, 2007, 05:28 PM // 17:28

With all respect to the previous poster's comments, my sense is that any team worth its salt can choose to keep a condition on you all the time, particularly weakness, given it's low cost etc. Current condition removal doesn't solve the problem, as previous posts in this thread have alluded.

A new skill (under Protection or Wilderness Survival) precluding conditions or specifically weakness might be one way of restoring balance. Nevertheless, I stand by my original position that the effect is so global that dramatically disrupts balance in the game.

One further thought: allocation of attributes is one of the specific controls given to players, compromising it, is, at the minimum, questionable if only on the grounds of the implicit increased complexity for new players. At the least it might have been better to test the strategy with more structurally local consequences.