Curse

Muk Utep · Jan 12, 2007, 11:22 PM // 23:22

I've never really played a monk in GW because playing healer types in EQ and WoW made me die a little inside, so I've stuck to other professions until now. But today, tired of never having monks around in RA, I made one to see if it was as bad as I had presumed. It wasn't, in fact it was pretty cool, so I want to improve the build and ask for general advice about monking in PvP. I'll read the sticky threads once Guru calms down and takes less than 5 minutes to load a page, but I'd appreciate any help I can get. Here's the build I used, half improvised and half inspired by something I saw somewhere.

[skill]Zealous Benediction[/skill][skill]Reversal of Fortune[/skill][skill]Aegis[/skill][skill]Feigned Neutrality[/skill][skill]Dark Escape[/skill][skill]Dismiss Condition[/skill][skill]Holy Veil[/skill][skill]Resurrect[/skill]

Attributes are something like this (can't remember exactly and I'm not in GW atm)
Protection: 12+1+1
Divine Favor: 11
Shadow: 8

It worked really well, especially against teams that couldn't deal heavy damage, allowing me to wait for allies to drop below 50% for a free ZB. I felt that Holy Veil wasn't so great against multiple hex sources though. Survival is good and cheap with the assassin skills. Didn't really get a chance use the rez much. Anything I should change?

I Phoenix I · Jan 12, 2007, 11:48 PM // 23:48

First off, if you're in RA, I would take out Aegis. It doesn't seem worth it to carry around a spell intended for party-wide effect when you only have 4 people. You would be better off with Guardian. Aegis is only in effect about 1/3 of the time.

Feigned Neutrality does not seem like the best choice, since it ends whenever you attack or use a skill. I would choose something like Return or Death's Retreat. Return allows you to Shadow-step to a teammate and Cripple people around the location of which you Shadow-stepped from. Death's Retreat allows you to Shadow-step to a teammate, and, if you have less health than that teammate, you gain an amount of health as well.

Resurrect isn't the best choice of resurrection in RA, as it takes 6 seconds and leaves them with little health and no energy. If you really want to take a resurrection skill, I would take Resurrection Signet. However, I would recommend taking out a resurrection totally.

Last thing is, the only real heal you have is Zealous Benediction. I would advise you to take something like Gift of Health with 6 or 7 in Healing Prayers. This gives you a good heal with not much investment either.

Err...last last thing. Perhaps you would want Shield of Absorption somewhere in that skill bar. It is really effective when an ally is heavily pummeled with many attacks and spells.

Overall, the skill bar has the basics, but could use some work.

JYX · Jan 13, 2007, 01:10 AM // 01:10

Try this:

11+1+2 prot
9+1 Divine
9+1 Heal
6 shadow

[skill]reversal of fortune[/skill][skill]zealous benediction[/skill][skill]gift of health[/skill][skill]shield of absorption[/skill][skill]dismiss condition[/skill][skill]holy veil[/skill][skill]dark escape[/skill][skill]return[/skill]

Thom Bangalter · Jan 13, 2007, 04:28 AM // 04:28

what's up with the lack of prot spirits on all these bars?

Sab · Jan 13, 2007, 04:57 AM // 04:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

what's up with the lack of prot spirits on all these bars?

It's hard to find room for it on those bars, plus, you can do without it in 4v4.

I Phoenix I · Jan 13, 2007, 05:08 AM // 05:08

JYX's bar is more or less what I wanted to say. He just expressed it in a clearer fashion lol.

Protective Spirit is a good skill, but it's not really necessary in Random Arenas. In high-level PvP like GvG or HA, however, it's pretty much a necessity.

whobitz · Jan 13, 2007, 05:27 AM // 05:27

The basis of almost all prot/hybrid builds (in the arenas at least) is RoF, SoA, Dismiss, GoH, and Holy Veil. Then you add an Elite (ZB, Blight, and Divert Hexes are common) and usually 2 survival skills, i.e. from the Assassin or Dervish line.

Currently, this is my favorite monk build:

Protection Prayers: 10+1+1~3
Healing Prayers: 8+1
Divine Favor: 11+1
Earth Prayers: 6

[skill]zealous benediction[/skill][skill]shield of absorption[/skill][skill]dismiss condition[/skill][skill]gift of health[/skill][skill]reversal of fortune[/skill][skill]holy veil[/skill][skill]vital boon[/skill][skill]conviction[/skill]

I'm just a person who favors high Divine, even though it means lower Prot. Of course, there's the whole issue of DF coming before ZB - therefore you should run lower DF - but as far as I know, ZB works before DF. GoH isn't completely necesarry on a ZB monk, but it's still nice. And I just love SoA. 5 energy, and based on how many people focus on the monk, or just a single target, it becomes very powerful. JYX posted a nice build as well. And skip the res. If a monk does the job well, there won't be a need for one.

Anyway, good luck with your build.

Wilhelm · Jan 13, 2007, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Both good bars, but I prefer to run Sheild Bash, and Riposte aposed to Return/Dark Escape, whenever i'm in RA.

Far too many Shadow Prison/Burst of Aggression Sins lurking around, and SB/Ripost cuts that combo apart.

JYX · Jan 13, 2007, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

what's up with the lack of prot spirits on all these bars?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sab

It's hard to find room for it on those bars, plus, you can do without it in 4v4.

Pretty much. Large packet damage usually comes slow enough that rof spamming+heal will cover it. Even if I did have room and wanted something, I'd pick Spirit Bond over Prot Spirit for 4v4.

Quote:

Originally Posted by whobitz

...as far as I know, ZB works before DF.

Yes, this is true. You may see old tests/wrong tests with infuse+ZB, clearly showing that the bonus does not activate. This is because you have to be below 50% hp, not at 50% hp, it does still activate before DF. This is fairly common knowledge, but I still see people who get it wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilhelm

Far too many Shadow Prison/Burst of Aggression Sins lurking around, and SB/Ripost cuts that combo apart.

In my experience Shield of Absorption alone stops Burst of Aggression Sins. Dark Escape and Return are also decent if you are caught out on recharge.

whobitz · Jan 13, 2007, 09:11 PM // 21:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by JYX

Yes, this is true. You may see old tests/wrong tests with infuse+ZB, clearly showing that the bonus does not activate. This is because you have to be below 50% hp, not at 50% hp, it does still activate before DF. This is fairly common knowledge, but I still see people who get it wrong.

Thanks for the clarification. After I posted, I did go look it up and found some correct tests, just to make sure I was right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilhelm

Both good bars, but I prefer to run Sheild Bash, and Riposte aposed to Return/Dark Escape, whenever i'm in RA.

Far too many Shadow Prison/Burst of Aggression Sins lurking around, and SB/Ripost cuts that combo apart.

Shield Bash/Riposte are nice, but I find constant protection with the Dervish stuff+SoA plenty to stop them. And Mo/A's have Dark Excape to deal with the spike if they have to. Also, if I ever see an A/W, I'll maintain Holy Veil whenever I need to on myself, unless I find out it's not a Shadow Prison sin. With a quick hand, you can still kill most, if not all, of their chain.

Effigy · Jan 13, 2007, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Prot 12+1+1
Heal 10+1
DF 8+1
Shadow 2

[skill]Reversal of Fortune[/skill][skill]Shield of Absorption[/skill][skill]Gift of Health[/skill][skill]Mend Condition[/skill][skill]Zealous Benediction[/skill][skill]Mending Touch[/skill][skill]Holy Veil[/skill][skill]Return[/skill]

This build works pretty well in RA. Mend Condition has a shorter recharge than Dismiss, which helps for removing blind spam from your melees. Plus the heal is unconditional. Mending Touch is very nice since you'll be getting stacked with conditions most of the time and is has a nice heal to go with it. MT pretty much defuses assassin combos, if you didn't already use Holy Veil or Return before they could get it off. ZB and GoH allow you to pump out respectable healing without taxing your energy too much. SoA will shut down melees that aren't smart enough to change target. RoF is a good general purpose skill and it's great to use on someone at very low health, to keep them alive while you have time to cast ZB or GoH. Cast Holy Veil before combat and remove it either when you get a nasty hex or when you determine that the opposing team has no real hex threat.

Sakki · Jan 14, 2007, 05:51 AM // 05:51

[skill]reversal of fortune[/skill][skill]gift of health[/skill][skill]mend condition[/skill][skill]signet of devotion[/skill][skill]rebirth[/skill][skill]zealous benediction[/skill][skill]protective spirit[/skill][skill]holy veil[/skill]

Healing prayers - 10 (9+1rune)
Protection prayers - 14(12+1hat+1rune)
Divine favor - 10 (9+1rune)

Pretty standard build for everyone i guess, used it for a loong time since I capped ZB. For pvp, you can swap out sig of devotion and rebirth for, dark escape, return, hex breaker or shield bash. Whatever you feel comfortable with.

Effigy · Jan 14, 2007, 06:36 AM // 06:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muk Utep

I want to improve the build and ask for general advice about monking in PvP.

Your build is fine for PvE, but it wouldn't work in PvP. No self-removal for conditions and no prot besides PS.

moko · Jan 14, 2007, 02:49 PM // 14:49

if you are running Zb you DO NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! need gift. :| zb is tempting you guys, your letting people drop on purpose instead of using your prot skills, its wrong, having both goh and zb..why even use prot skills? your whole bar only relies on them in the first place. its the wrong way to go, your supposed to protect and outheal if needed (which it is not in TA, but in RA), not outheal everything without damage reduction.

ZB, Rof, Soa, Holy Veil, PS, CoP, Vital Boon, DrawC

what i used to use, what i would still use in RA if i played that crap place, what id use in TA if divert wouldnt be so much better. >_>

12 prot, 13 divine, 8 (i think) earth

Sab · Jan 14, 2007, 03:34 PM // 15:34

If your only heal is ZB and that gets disabled somehow (Humility, D-shot and Diversion are all quite common), then you might have a problem, not to mention that if two people need healing one after the other, then you can ZB one and Gift the other.

whobitz · Jan 14, 2007, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Running both gives a lot more versatility. If you and someone else on your team are taking heavy damage, and you only have ZB, it's harder to keep yourself alive and still heal them. With GoH, you can use ZB on yourself and GoH on them, and follow up with any more needed prot. It's just my personal preference, especially since I had a hole in my bar because I couldn't find another skill I used enough.

Effigy · Jan 14, 2007, 08:22 PM // 20:22

Running 1 heal skill on a single monk backline is not the greatest idea. Even in GvG, where you have 2 monks, you will usually have a couple heals on your bar. Protting targets is great, but that's no going to stop all the damage. In any event, the juicy prot skills like Prot Spirit and Spirit Bond aren't very effective in RA, so you're left with SoA and RoF.

moko · Jan 14, 2007, 10:57 PM // 22:57

i never mentioned gvg, i know its essential there, so dont even try to argue with that. >_>

if you hit through diversion, thats your own problem. d-shot can happen, if so it might be ouch depending on the situation. humility isnt that common, ive never faced it in ra tbh.

and uh, excuse me? sb not being effective in ra? i see so many ele sf nukers around its just funny. and lol, dervs are common too.

i actually messed up ps and sb in the build, it was supposed to be sb, so maybe its a bit more understandable.

Quote:

Running both gives a lot more versatility. If you and someone else on your team are taking heavy damage, and you only have ZB, it's harder to keep yourself alive and still heal them. With GoH, you can use ZB on yourself and GoH on them, and follow up with any more needed prot. It's just my personal preference, especially since I had a hole in my bar because I couldn't find another skill I used enough.

if you AND someone else are taking heavy damage, you do fail at protection.

in case you people didnt know, rof spam is actually really good in ra. -.-

big edit: i just realised..you guys arent even looking at skill combinations. if you and someone else needs a heal, use zb on your ally and cop your vital boon off which might be covered with other enchantments? huh? ever thought of that? they are in the build for a reason. -.-

whobitz · Jan 14, 2007, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

if you AND someone else are taking heavy damage, you do fail at protection.

in case you people didnt know, rof spam is actually really good in ra. -.-

big edit: i just realised..you guys arent even looking at skill combinations. if you and someone else needs a heal, use zb on your ally and cop your vital boon off which might be covered with other enchantments? huh? ever thought of that? they are in the build for a reason. -.-

Well no one ever said they were running your build, eh? Go look and no other build had CoP in it, and I personally don't like running it anymore. Stuff happens. Lag happens. You do face a decent teams sometimes (not so much in RA). If you face a hex-heavy or just degen-heavy team and ZB is your elite, Holy Veil isn't gonna do much, and neither will RoF or SoA (or PS or SB). So with no GoH, that basically leaves ZB (and maybe Dismiss if you bring it). 10 energy and a four second recharge, and you won't be able to wait for someone to go under 50% all the time.

JYX · Jan 14, 2007, 11:33 PM // 23:33

Your argument appears to be that Gift of Health compromises your protection skills. I don't think this is the case, there is plenty in your build that could be removed for Gift of Health. The skills of damage reduction in your bar are SoA, SB and RoF. In my build I have included RoF and SoA, it is also perfectly possible to include SB without having to drop GoH. In your build for example I could change Vital Boon+CoP to Gift of Health+Shield Bash.

I am not going to say anything against Spirit Bond, even though I did not include it in my original build. Its a good skill.

But then the argument would be whether or not to take Spirit Bond in the build, not about Gift of Health at all. For some reason you'd rather take Vital Boon over Gift of Health. In short then, I am saying it is possible to prot to the same degree as the build you have posted above while still taking Gift of Health.