Curse

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Dec 27, 2006, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Two things on the bunching up thing. One: people bunch up in pvp for three reasons: wards, being morons, and being afk. To explain why you would *all* bunch up in wards against a mostly elementalist team, see the latter two options. Two: PvPers are not complaining because we cannot beat SF, we are complaining because it is indeed overpowered. We can counter it and beat it quite easily, but we need extra skills, which in turn cause us to get omgwtfpwned by other builds when we cannot pack counters for those. In comparison to other fire ele skills, it is overpowered, thus its overusage. That is why it needs a nerf, is it far outstrips any other fire skill, or any other AoE guildwars skill for that matter.

Xpl0iter · Dec 27, 2006, 04:38 AM // 04:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

Two things on the bunching up thing. One: people bunch up in pvp for three reasons: wards, being morons, and being afk. To explain why you would *all* bunch up in wards against a mostly elementalist team, see the latter two options.

Wards, Understood. But Ward against ELES is good enough for you for such reason to deal with SF.

For the Latter, it is not SF's or ELE's issue that you have idiots and morons in PVP team who go AFK. Entirely your issue to deal with, Not the Spell's issue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

Two: PvPers are not complaining because we cannot beat SF, we are complaining because it is indeed overpowered. We can counter it and beat it quite easily, but we need extra skills, which in turn cause us to get omgwtfpwned by other builds when we cannot pack counters for those.

So if there are two builds which can kill you, you would prefer getting SF nerfed and not the other build...?

just for that reason, You are going to get SF nerfed which will let you walk into PVP arenas without the NEED of having COUNTER for?

a retarded reason is how i take it as.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

In comparison to other fire ele skills, it is overpowered, thus its overusage.

Now you tell me that SF is over used because of the fact that other ELE fire skills are Underpowered? Which leads to the over usage of SF in general?
Are you out of your freakin mind?
You are telling me to NERF SF to make it Balanced in Comparision to OTHER FIRE SKILLS so PEOPLE STOP using SF in general?
How often did you see those eles using OTHER skills BEFORE SF came out in General?
IF people did not use those skills, there was something not right with them. If you want SF to be in the same category as those skills, then something is NOT right with YOU. Period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

That is why it needs a nerf, is it far outstrips any other fire skill, or any other AoE guildwars skill for that matter.

if i recall, the Point of Nuking was AOE dmg, was it not?
How many other professions claim to be the AOE damager of GW, beside the ADVERTISED ELE profession ofcourse?
Could you KINDLY list the ATTRIBUTES which you considered in your argument when comparing them with Fire Magic Attribute? Just being curious.

What ever.

Riceboi · Dec 27, 2006, 04:39 AM // 04:39

Enjoy it while you can because it will get nerfed! Too many whiny babies!

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Dec 27, 2006, 05:02 AM // 05:02

Sigh. First off, the afk thing was sarcasm in case you didn't notice. What I meant by the counter comment was that SF requires things such as mantra of flame, ward against elements, etc. because it is OVERPOWERED. Other builds require counters due to combinations of skills and them working in synergy, builds such as spirit spam. Other ele skills are not underpowered, they work just fine. I saw people using other fire ele skills in PvE and PvP EVERY DAY many times before searing flames came out. Other AoE skills: dervishes, mysticism, scythes, spiteful spirit, barrage, need I go on? Last but not least, please stop bringing up the issue of PvP and searing flames, as you quite clearly know nothing about PvP.

twicky_kid · Dec 27, 2006, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Francis Crawford

Why don't you help us out by explaining the arithmetic and skill sequence on that?

For one thing, it sounds as if you're assuming three straight SFs all cause damage. So was there a MoR as a predecessor?

And by the way -- if you want to bunch up in PvP, maybe you should devote a single slot on somebody's skillbar to Ward Against Elements.

Ya since ward camping is such a good counter to SF why don't you go try that. Spreading out doesn't work as well as you would think. Some halls don't allow enough room for even a good team with great positioning to spread enough.

You can cast SF 3 times during the burning duration which is 357 dmg vs 60 AL. 98 dmg from burning duration. Shave off 1 second of the burning duration and you have the dmg over 6 seconds from 1 SF. Now lets multiply that by 2-6 and you have the best dmg output on the game.

If you increase the recharge to 3 seconds you are taking 1 casting out during the burning duration so that is a decrease in dmg of 119 vs 60 AL. That is too much of a decrease in dmg.

Even if you increase the recharge the spike dmg alone will still be enough. You need to lower the base dmg so SF spikes are not as effective. The pressure from 1 SF is fine. When you get nailed by 3 of em at a time and watch 3 people drop to about 25% life you can't save them all. Even if you do heal them the burning duration ist still going dealing dmg while you heal the others.

Xpl0iter · Dec 27, 2006, 05:19 AM // 05:19

i do not know the PVP arenas while you with the claim of "ele skills working fine" do. yes ofcourse, sure.

So... Could u elaborate on those teams which used eles for other than flag runners, blind bots, and heal party? (ofcourse BEFORE SF CAME OUT)
and how often did you find them existing in pvp arenas?

The stupidest idea that YOU hold is that SF works alone and requires no other skill usage in PVP.

if they are being given enough time to spam sf and you are stupid enough to allow more than 2 or 3 allies getting the dmg with that spam, i would say, stop assuming any thing about me.

Any person who thinks fire skills other than SF are fine, needs to check his own knowledge before questioning others.

beside dervishes, how many of those professions claim to be the AOE damage dealers?

Until now, you have been arguining with the most ridiculous ideas that i have seen and arguing with you seems like a waste of my time to be honest.

Xpl0iter · Dec 27, 2006, 05:23 AM // 05:23

by the way twiky, how much dmg reduction are you looking for any way ?

Draiyne Valure · Dec 27, 2006, 05:28 AM // 05:28

I've read this thread from page one, and the one thing that is clear is that whatever happens, a lot of people are going to be angry.

I can't see why people would complain about SF in PvE, so I'll leave that subject alone.

I can see how having to take specific counters for SF in PvP "wastes" skill slots and makes you vulnerable to other builds. But isn't that inevitable with the release of new skills and classes anyway? There was going to be a point when a build couldn't be general enough and would have holes.

I suppose the only thing you can do is come down to the most basic of anti spellcasting tactics, edenial, interrupts, daze etc. I don't PvP as much as you lot probably do so I'm not sure how viable those solutions are. =)

Just my few useless thoughts ^^

Vital · Dec 27, 2006, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xpl0iter

...... LOL
sure, what ever you say /sarcasm
so.. why am i carrying GG any way ?

You are carrying GG, after this hypothetical balance, because you can still get a net energy gain off of it with high attributes and attunement.

However, you can still balance SF without touching GG...this will probably be the case.

Lower the damage, keep it "Searing"...Im sure Zhed will cry a little, but ponies cheer up fast.

Xpl0iter · Dec 27, 2006, 07:57 AM // 07:57

a skil that is conditional enough to return energy shouldn't break even at 12.
Thats my opinion. That net energy is still not enough to support SF and it almost as if i must run GoLE to support my energy spam.

As for Dmg, As long dmg it self is reduced from the description without touched the cost, charge and cast, i got no issues. but reducing cost to make it lame enough is still not a good idea. 105 dmg is fine by me at 16fire

Enko · Dec 27, 2006, 07:57 AM // 07:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

and you have the best dmg output on the game.

and that was supposed to be the intended purpose of the Elementalist to begin with . ..

I say again, Searing Flames doesn't need to be changed at all. If PvPers are complaining about it, then they need to start bringing counters for it. Oh so you have to use a skill slot that will make you weaker against a tougher build? Tough, that's the gamble of fighting against other teams. There are plenty of counters to Searing Flames that any change isn't needed.

S_Serpent · Dec 27, 2006, 09:44 AM // 09:44

This is all idiotic, why nerf a perfect balanced skill, it doesn't' own HA it's not overpowered (just look further then you noses, start nerfing rangers and rits and necro's like the eles have been in the past = trust me nobody would play gw anymore then). If they are going to nerf the ele again, they beter just delete the ele profession (it was, but was nerfed before, now it got back to its basic feats and again seeing the nerfbat for something that can be dealt with very easily).

Just image removing all spirits from a ritualist, that would be the same as removing all raw dmg (its not even armor penetrating for gods sake) the ele can put out atm.

Or maybe we could ask a.net to remove soul reaping from the attibrute list for a n necromancer.

If SF is that overpowered, how come that some many other teams are winning from SF teams in HA????

But ok, lets nerf the elementalist again they are so overpowered with there with there ultra hard armorlevel, dmg reduction from there staffs and almighty boots of haste so you can't even catch them.

"Wake up and see the reality of the skills"

Mouse at Large · Dec 27, 2006, 10:53 AM // 10:53

As for the "damage" caused to targets in PvE by SF, I hardly think the 30-45 ish numbers I've seen rising up from lvl 24 mobs in Mirror of Lyss makes this excessive.

Enko · Dec 27, 2006, 04:46 PM // 16:46

Many people have brought up a good point. Why is SF even being on the table for a "skill balance"? SF teams aren't winning HoH. They're not that successful in TA as far as I can tell. And in RA, they work well only since most teams aren't that cohesive.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Dec 27, 2006, 05:16 PM // 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xpl0iter

i do not know the PVP arenas while you with the claim of "ele skills working fine" do. yes ofcourse, sure.

So... Could u elaborate on those teams which used eles for other than flag runners, blind bots, and heal party? (ofcourse BEFORE SF CAME OUT)
and how often did you find them existing in pvp arenas?

The stupidest idea that YOU hold is that SF works alone and requires no other skill usage in PVP.

if they are being given enough time to spam sf and you are stupid enough to allow more than 2 or 3 allies getting the dmg with that spam, i would say, stop assuming any thing about me.

Any person who thinks fire skills other than SF are fine, needs to check his own knowledge before questioning others.

beside dervishes, how many of those professions claim to be the AOE damage dealers?

Until now, you have been arguining with the most ridiculous ideas that i have seen and arguing with you seems like a waste of my time to be honest.

Well other than the three you just mentioned, I saw eles in the position of hmmm lets see: starburst, regular fire nuking, warders with about 10 variations, air spikers, speed debuffs, the list goes on. I'm not going to bother responding to the giving enough time to spam comment, go play PvP and you might have a clue WHY on some of the maps. The fire skills other than SF are fine, get over it. Lets see how many other professions claim to be AoE damage dealers.... SS before the nerf, barrage is still used, you cannot simply exclude dervishes, and there are other types of eles than fire you know... Also, did you ever stop and think that maybe you don't need AoE damage to kill something? ZOMFG!!! If its not AoE must be worthless, lets remove rits, monks, warriors, necromancers, paragons, etc., all of which do have selective AoE skills nowhere near as powerful as fire magic. So, now that we're agreed that the fire magic of elementalists is the most powerful AoE in the game, lets just buff EVERYTHING so that all the AoE damage dealing is equal, resulting in ridiculously massive damage amounts. Or we could just remove monks from the game... oh wait...

Xpl0iter · Dec 27, 2006, 11:13 PM // 23:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

Well other than the three you just mentioned, I saw eles in the position of hmmm lets see: starburst, regular fire nuking, warders with about 10 variations, air spikers, speed debuffs, the list goes on. I'm not going to bother responding to the giving enough time to spam comment, go play PvP and you might have a clue WHY on some of the maps.

Starbust was a skill which required fire eles to be in front lines, and totally not doing what the class was suppose to do. Stay the heck Back and do the damage. A suicidal gimmick build does not impresses nobody.

Air spikers? People prefers Me/E air spikers over ele air spikers, a fact. And ele air spikers died a while back, don't bother brining it.
Speed debuf = snares, which is all they are doing, Hindering foes. Blindbots, water snares, wards to reduce dmg, THAT IS IT!
If the class was advertised as the utility class, i have no issues. As long as the class is advertised as a Damage dealing class, shit gotta get fixed.

I have done my share of PVP, and stop assuming that i havn't and act like an ignorant person. If this class was so darn popular, you wouldn't have seen 100s of threads to buff them. You would not see Ensign making a thread of Why Nuking Sucks at first place. Go and get real.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

The fire skills other than SF are fine, get over it. Lets see how many other professions claim to be AoE damage dealers.... SS before the nerf, barrage is still used, you cannot simply exclude dervishes, and there are other types of eles than fire you know... Also, did you ever stop and think that maybe you don't need AoE damage to kill something? ZOMFG!!!

The fire skills other than SF are NOT fine. Hideous Recharge, Worst Cast and Awful high Energy consumption. Forcing an ELE to bring E-Management Elites to manage their mana. Hence why Ether Prodigy was ( and IS ) so popular ( and was nerfed ).

SS was a conditional dmg skill and if you think of it as a pvp skill, let me tell you this. SS is to pwn Idiots who do not know how to react to SS. if the person who has SS on STOPS doing any thing untiol the hex is removed, its working! If he is Not adjacent, it is FINE. One skill does not make the entire curses line AOE dmg.
Go and read threads based on SS and its issues and how legit it is in PVP against well organized players.
Barrage is USED, but I have YET to see ranges claiming that they are AOE dmg professions. Until then, don't pull one skill to support your childish ideas of AOE Dmg Professions Listing.
Ever realized that AOE may not be needed to kill but AOE MAy be a good option to do so? AN OPTION? Currently, that option is not even available without SF availability.
Dervish class has been added JUST now. ELE has been a Core class and existed since GW released. ELES have faced issues for over year! Dervishes are new born babies. Which is why i said don't compare them to eles who have faced hideous number if nerfs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

If its not AoE must be worthless, lets remove rits, monks, warriors, necromancers, paragons, etc., all of which do have selective AoE skills nowhere near as powerful as fire magic.

Your being an Ignorant person who is ignoring every single issue that has ever been listed since last year. GO and check those before you get to this part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gimme Money Plzkthx

So, now that we're agreed that the fire magic of elementalists is the most powerful AoE in the game, lets just buff EVERYTHING so that all the AoE damage dealing is equal, resulting in ridiculously massive damage amounts. Or we could just remove monks from the game... oh wait...

Fire magic is the MOST GIMPED AOE existing at this point if you remove SF from the list. Get your facts straight.

And i will repeat, READ THE Freakin "Why Nuking Sucks" thread! it is for people like YOU who think eles are fine! If Knowledgeable people like ENSIGN can't get through your brain, then i dont expect any one else would. Your one of those kinda people who argue blindly without judging the facts properly and gathering their info.

I have spent most of my time arguing with a person like you who has NO freakin idea about the issues which this class faces. I simply find it in my best interest to ignore you who claims to know PVP without checking things arround.
GO and play the FIRE mage class and see how many groups pick you up. Do the statistics and let us know.
If you don't have time to do such, i suggest you read the threads over here. They might help you get your facts straighten up!

Regardz
Darkest Elemantal.

Xpl0iter · Dec 27, 2006, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

As for the "damage" caused to targets in PvE by SF, I hardly think the 30-45 ish numbers I've seen rising up from lvl 24 mobs in Mirror of Lyss makes this excessive.

IF PVPer whines, PVE means nothing, regardless how gimped the dmg in PVE is. Try 119dmg fire skills against mursat booses who take 21 dmg from you.
All you can do for your team in that condition is to be a Gale Bot.

keli · Dec 28, 2006, 01:03 AM // 01:03

Well, im a big ele player (fow armor 4,7 mil xp) and i hate SF as well, if you play in HA the only build what can kill this is 6 melandrus dervish, or if everybody use frigid armor... this skill is overpovered and yes it needs a big big nerf.

Gimme Money Plzkthx · Dec 28, 2006, 02:00 AM // 02:00

Right, because we know professions other than eles WOULDN'T BE AFFECTED IN THE EXACT SAME WAY AS ELES VS. MONSTERS WITH HIGH AL. As for air spikers, I did not mean an entire team of air spikers, I meant one participating in rainbow spike, balanced team, etc. (get more PvP experience?). Also, in PvP and occasionally PvE, eles are an extraordinarily useful utility class. As for barrage not being an AoE skill and rangers don't advertise themselves as AoE, I encourage you to take a trip to the tomb of the primeval kings sometime. Eles should need to manage energy, just like mesmers, monks, necromancers (gets bored doing a list again) do. I never said the entire curses line was AoE damage (desecrate and defile anyone?) simply that SS is. You are correct in that starburst was stupid as they had to get near the front lines, the issue was not whether it was stupid, the issue was whether or not eles were used. Fire eles are not broken, they are fine. I farm minotaurs and trolls with a mo/e fire ele 55 build, and from initial aggro to death, it takes less than 30 seconds (ZOMFG TOO LITTLE DAMAGE!?!?ONE1). As for the one who is ignorant, I can speak english; as for you doing your fair share of PvP, it does not show.

EDIT: I skimmed the why nukers suck thread, and I would like you to note that it is posted in the PvP section of the forums. Also, if nukers suck so much, I would like to know why people take them into high level areas instead of warriors which apparently wtfpwn them (PvE of course). Nukers don't suck for PvE, and they have their uses for PvP. Get over it.

Xpl0iter · Dec 28, 2006, 02:27 AM // 02:27

simple answers:

If your so much into pvp as you claimn to be, stop asking questions and start giving answers.

Nukers Suck in PVE if they are compared with other characters. I know cause i have used other casters. Don't bother arguing. Dmg speaks on its own..

Yes, UTILITY is what ELES are. You got that one right! That is PRECISELY what they are. They are, however, advertised wrongly. I assume you will agree on this one?

As far as Spike goes. i NEVER said a TEAM of spikers, i said AIR SPIKERS. Be that rainbow spike or Pure specific kind of Spike. They are Me/Es mostly Used. I know cause i prefer FC over More dmg and extra energy.

Farming childish monsters does not make eles good. Hit the high level area and mursaat bosses and tell me the dmg that you dish out, speak to me if you a dmg more than 31 against mursat bosses with fire.
Do not teach me about PVE. i am not efficient in PVP, but PVE is a whole different story.

I am not getting over any thing, i am simply telling you to stop being an ignorant. That is it! Accept it.

Done Skimming Why Nuking Sucks Thread? i think you need alot more time to even SKIM it.
Specially Skimming a thread which is based on 600 + posts.

Nukers DONT suck in PVE, but they suck when compared to other core casters. Simple reason... AL of Monsters So go figure.

As for PEOPLE who hate SF in PVP.... IF GW is all about PVP, advertise this game as such and th3n have skill set up differently for PVP and PVE. The armour that you stand with is 60-85 mostly, while the monster infront of me is over and way beyond that. I need more dmg against this creature, and to me, it is PVP that kills my skills.