Curse

Livingston · Feb 11, 2007, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Just wondering if any number crunchers have compared a good Dragon Spammer build to an Eviscerate build.

Dragon Spammer:

[skill]Serpent's Quickness[/skill][skill]"For Great Justice!"[/skill][skill]"To the Limit!"[/skill] [skill]Frenzy[/skill] [skill]Sun and Moon Slash[/skill] [skill]Dragon Slash[/skill] + Two optionals.

Serpent's Quickness is optional but does decrease the down time of "For Great Justice." While "For Great Justice" is activated you can constantly use "Dragon Slash" and "Sun and Moon Slash" as they automatically recharge each other.

Can be used with any secondary or with Ranger if SQ is used.

Shock Axe:

[skill]Frenzy[/skill][skill]Eviscerate[/skill][skill]Executioner's Strike[/skill][skill]Shock[/skill][skill]Bull's Strike[/skill] + 3 optionals

Requires Elementalist as the secondary.

Basically my true question is whether the Eviscerate/Executioner's Strike combo can out damage the Dragon Slash/Sun and Moon Slash combo, when supported with (Serpent's Quickness) "For Great Justice!" and "To the Limit!"

Livingston

-.- · Feb 11, 2007, 06:04 PM // 18:04

Isn't the Dragon Slash build in PvP: [skill]Sever Artery[/skill][skill]Gash[/skill][skill]Sun and Moon Slash[/skill][skill]Protector's Strike[/skill][skill]Dragon Slash[/skill]?

Akuma · Feb 11, 2007, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Dragon Slash is really DPS pressure, and shock axe is a straight spike..

Livingston · Feb 12, 2007, 09:55 AM // 09:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by -.-

Isn't the Dragon Slash build in PvP: [skill]Sever Artery[/skill][skill]Gash[/skill][skill]Sun and Moon Slash[/skill][skill]Protector's Strike[/skill][skill]Dragon Slash[/skill]?

Yes that is the Dragon Slash build, but I'm not talking about the Dragon Slash build, I'm talking about the Dragon Spam build.

The Dragon Spam build does heaps more DPS than the Dragon Slash build, though the Dragon Slash build may be more suitable for PVP, as there is no down time.

Livingston

qvtkc · Feb 12, 2007, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Livingston

Basically my true question is whether the Eviscerate/Executioner's Strike combo can out damage the Dragon Slash/Sun and Moon Slash combo, when supported with (Serpent's Quickness) "For Great Justice!" and "To the Limit!"

The only "damage skills" in shock axe are Eviscerate and Executioner's Strike. Assuming that they are used as soon as they are reloaded, and assuming that every swing hits...

This thread says that axes have a DPH (damage per hit) of 35.55, and swords have a DPH of 34.12.

It takes 8 hits for Eviscerate and Executioner's Strike to charge up, and two more hits to use them. 10 hits in total, 35.55 x 10 + 33 + 42 = 430.5

Assuming Dragon Slash is already charged once, and assuming FGJ is up, Dragon Slash and Sun and Moon Slash will charge each other, meaning that in two swings you hit three times and do 42 bonus damage. 34.12 x 3 + 42 = 144.36
That's two swings. For 10 swings we need to multiply by 5, meaning: 144.36 x 5 = 721.8

So, while FGJ is up, "dragon spam" have almost twice the damage output compared to shock axe. Even when it's down, you will still do more pure damage with a Dragon Slash build. However this doesn't take into account the deep wound or the sudden spike of the axe build. Then again, a decent DS build (at least one for PvP) has deep wound.

Effigy · Feb 12, 2007, 06:48 PM // 18:48

I'm not so sure about the use of Serpent's Quickness. While it would allow you to get more mileage from TtL and FGJ, an IAS or run stance would boost DPS as well as adrenaline gain (depending on whether the target is kiting or stationary, of course). The recharge on SQ is too long for stance switching to be very effective.

Acidic Won · Feb 12, 2007, 07:06 PM // 19:06

I know this good skill called Enduring Harmony. He would love to join your build and could also be combined with a nice skill called remedy signet. Tell him I said hi.

Shadowfox1125 · Feb 12, 2007, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Well, you're causing Deep Wound and KD with the Axe build, but pressure and pure damage with the Sword build, so I doubt you can compare the two.

jesh · Feb 12, 2007, 10:55 PM // 22:55

I've posted on using Enduring Harmony with FGJ before.. never actually tried it though. I guess it might be worth it if you just don't want to make an assassin or dervish for some reason.

BTW Remedy Signet isn't too useful if your monks can remove conditions. Hard res skills are always nice, though.

Dzan · Feb 13, 2007, 12:26 AM // 00:26

If you measure the effectiveness of a build on how quickly you can kill the dummies on the isle of the nameless, the dragon slasher wins.

If you measure by how quickly you can kill real monks in GVG, the shock axer wins.

You can imagine which one most people will prefer.

Livingston · Feb 13, 2007, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acidic Won

I know this good skill called Enduring Harmony. He would love to join your build and could also be combined with a nice skill called remedy signet. Tell him I said hi.

Dude...

Much better than SQ.

Never thought I would have a real reason to use Paragon as a secondary...

The signet is pretty nice to for high condition areas.

And yes I mostly do PvE, and am aware of the benefits and drawbacks of Spike vs DPS.

I'm just not sure exactly how much extra damage deep wounds really put in over say a 15 sec battle. Which is why I was asking about specific damage number value compared to situational use. As once that knowledge is acquired you can then figure out what you have to tweak in order to make it viable in either a PVP or PVE situation.

Livingston

-.- · Feb 14, 2007, 12:03 AM // 00:03

For PvE, I would go with the Dragon Spammer. Targets die too fast for me to even unleash a full combo with the Axe build. While a Dragon Spammer can just keep gathering momentum.

Yukito Kunisaki · Feb 14, 2007, 12:34 AM // 00:34

If damage really was all that mattered, wouldn't we end up with nothing but damage damage damage skills on our skill bars?

However, damage itself is the easiest form of combat 'result' to nullify. [just do dmg reduction enchant and heal it off]

When the warrior swinging at you chops off 100hp for free [deep wound], reduces your healing [deep wound], and knocks you flat on your ass [shock is unblockable yes? ^_^], I think we know where the 'real' power lies...

[solemnly salutes the axe]

/salute...

Katari · Feb 14, 2007, 06:35 AM // 06:35

In PvE, knockdowns hardly matter. You'd really be better off with distracting blow if you want some disruption on a PvE war. As long as stuff can bleed, I like going with Dragonslash over axes. I also happen to like the Enraging Charge and Flail combo in PvE. An IAS really helps with spamming attacks.

Racthoh · Feb 14, 2007, 06:56 AM // 06:56

With FGJ, I prefer a Dragon Slasher to have Dragon Slash -> Standing Slash (assuming Flail, PvE afterall) -> Silverwing Slash/Galrath Slash. A string of +42/43's is more effective against a higher AL vs. the two hits of Sun and Moon Slash (since they don't add any +damage). Takes an extra slot, but you're a warrior with 16 weapon mastery you might as well use those high +damage skills.

Thom Bangalter · Feb 14, 2007, 07:09 AM // 07:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Livingston

Just wondering if any number crunchers have compared a good Dragon Spammer build to an Eviscerate build.

Dragon Spammer:

[skill]Serpent's Quickness[/skill][skill]"For Great Justice!"[/skill][skill]"To the Limit!"[/skill] [skill]Frenzy[/skill] [skill]Sun and Moon Slash[/skill] [skill]Dragon Slash[/skill] + Two optionals.

Serpent's Quickness is optional but does decrease the down time of "For Great Justice." While "For Great Justice" is activated you can constantly use "Dragon Slash" and "Sun and Moon Slash" as they automatically recharge each other.

Can be used with any secondary or with Ranger if SQ is used.

Shock Axe:

[skill]Frenzy[/skill][skill]Eviscerate[/skill][skill]Executioner's Strike[/skill][skill]Shock[/skill][skill]Bull's Strike[/skill] + 3 optionals

Requires Elementalist as the secondary.

Basically my true question is whether the Eviscerate/Executioner's Strike combo can out damage the Dragon Slash/Sun and Moon Slash combo, when supported with (Serpent's Quickness) "For Great Justice!" and "To the Limit!"

Livingston

First, Serpent's quickness is terrible. You know what else increases uptime on adrenaline skills? Enraging charge.

Second, a dragon slash will always hit higher DPS than a shock warrior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dzan

If you measure the effectiveness of a build on how quickly you can kill the dummies on the isle of the nameless, the dragon slasher wins.

If you measure by how quickly you can kill real monks in GVG, the shock axer wins.

You can imagine which one most people will prefer.

This is kinda untrue. The problem is, most warriors don't truly know how to pressure, and it's easier to build around shock axe. Plus, with a dragon slash guy, you probably are fairly physical heavy, and it ties up slots on an 8 man team, which could be used for the utility of an ele or mesmer.

qvtkc · Feb 14, 2007, 09:43 AM // 09:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

[shock is unblockable yes? ^_^]

Almost... [skill]"Can't Touch This!"[/skill]

Not that anyone would ever use it though.

Dzan · Feb 16, 2007, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

This is kinda untrue. The problem is, most warriors don't truly know how to pressure, and it's easier to build around shock axe. Plus, with a dragon slash guy, you probably are fairly physical heavy, and it ties up slots on an 8 man team, which could be used for the utility of an ele or mesmer.

You're right the theoretical Dragon Slash numbers are great, but in actual GVG you'd know well better than me which one is more common at the top of the ladder where people do know how to pressure.

Arkantos · Feb 16, 2007, 01:44 AM // 01:44

Dragon Slasher = Pressure
Shock Axe = Spike

Why do you want to compare the two?

Franco Power · Feb 16, 2007, 01:56 AM // 01:56

mmm, if I'm not mistaken PUFF and some other top guilds use a Dragon slash and a shock or YAA, Why are Dragon and YAA similar? Utility and DPS, shock axe are popular in HA and spike builds because a monk can't heal if his knocked down from Shock, still don't see why you want to compare them two, they both have different purposes