Curse

crucifix · Jan 02, 2007, 01:40 AM // 01:40

More on forms. The only application of forms is really in PvP, where you have a good backup when you lie vulnerable (or in grenth/ lyssa/ dwaynas case, you're useless until that form comes back up). Gamewide on the other hand i would like to comment on balthazar. This avitar is absolute trailer trash for an elite skill. the only bonus is +40 armor and a 33% increased run buff. this would be great if it was worth my time but its not. plus, av balth just screams noob, probably even more than a wammo does. lets take a look as to why balthazar is crap.

look at this bar:
conviction, armor of sanctity, veil of thorns, pious haste. ok look... thats more or less avatar of balth without the elite, in 4 skills. on top of that, wounding strike, chilling, eremites, res.

theres a good bar without the annoying elite occupation of balthazar. It also doesnt leave you vulnerable for another 60 seconds after your form would drop. Its always fun playing around in trash pvp areas like RA, FA, and AB and having a balth derv chase you. ever heard of kiting? when that form falls you can pretty much garuntee that you will inevitably die.

NinjaKai · Jan 02, 2007, 03:23 AM // 03:23

@crucifix: Since when did the application of forms not matter in PvE. And since when have other PvP areas been 'trash' as you call it. Please atleast give some justification for your opinions.

knives · Jan 02, 2007, 04:54 AM // 04:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by NinjaKai

Avatar of Lyssa doesn't interrupt it only damages foes activating skills. So you won't get the extra damage from frustration. And Dervish have no attacks that interrupt.

I didn't mean to interrupt. It acts the same as AC but has shorter cast time, recharge time, and longer duration. The extra damage is totally irrelevant. Spells take 50% longer = twice as long, no?

Coloneh · Jan 02, 2007, 06:17 AM // 06:17

im just saying that there are better elites. VoS pretty much makes the avatars look like crap. and you could always use an elite from your secondary. im just tired of people thinking that avatars are what make devishes good. its conviction, mystic regeneration, and imbune that make dervishes good.

Kijik Oni Hanryuu · Jan 02, 2007, 07:04 AM // 07:04

Avatars aren't what MAKES the dervish good, the dervishes synergy makes it good, just because the Avatars aren't the only thing that makes a dervish good doesn't mean they suck.. and you forget that VoS has a major drawback.. YOu can't cast spells either.. so if they decide to send their warrior to rage in your face..yer screwed without a competent monk, and even then that monk could be busy with other things, and expecting you to heal yourself, you being a dervish and all. I also know that there are other good elites, I often use Reaper's Sweep on my Dervish when I am going damage.

Oh and Crucifix.. make some sense, then I will take apart your statement and render whatever you say utterly useless mmk? The one part that was clear, I will easily prove you wrong on. 1 do you even know how much damage reduction 40 armor does? Once you do come back to me on that, also, you are suggesting we take out 1 skill and put in 4 SKILLS, that's half our damn skillbar genius!

Superdarth · Jan 02, 2007, 10:01 AM // 10:01

Melandru is probably the most useful because of the immunity to conditions and the +200 hp, the most useless is Lyssa, since it realy only makes a diffrence if the foe is attacking..its a plus but definetly the weakest.

Ayamari · Jan 02, 2007, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Superdarth

Melandru is probably the most useful because of the immunity to conditions and the +200 hp, the most useless is Lyssa, since it realy only makes a diffrence if the foe is attacking..its a plus but definetly the weakest.

Activating skills not attacking. ;_;

Durik Lakmor · Jan 02, 2007, 11:00 AM // 11:00

I wouldn't call any of them useless, I have used all of them in PvE with some use, exception being Grenth I haven't found a use for Grenth in PvE yet, however his PvP strengths are well known and make up for this.

NOT IN ORDER

Balth - +40 armor and 33% run and holy damage. the run is always nice when needed in an emergency. +40 armor seems to do a noticeable job in addition to conviction, vital boon and of course mystic regen. Falls short on dmg...of course unless it is undead.

Lyssa - Underated avatar. That extra dmg can be just plain amazing if combined with some minor tanking skills and the right attacks skills + IAS. The extra energy is decent and the low cast cost kicks major arse. Downside is that it may seem bland at first and the extra damage is conditional.

Dwayna - Yeah, even more ways to keep your dervish alive and well. No real bonus to damage at all is its downside of course your groups monks will appreciate seeing you in this form.

Melandru - +200 hp (mixes great wtih Vital Boon), condtions...what condtions? living up to the name of the god this is the "ranger" of the avatars, it can be put into any avatar build in place of another and do well in pve situations. Downside, 25e to cast.

I have to say it is hard to rank which is the most "useful" and most "useless" it really depends on the situation, team you have, skills you throw in and such. In a situation where you have a bunch of hexing undead creatures Dwayna or Balthazar would possibly be a better choice than Melandru. Lyssa makes a good spiker and in pve i find that with a balanced group it works best in the dreaded Gate of Madness mission.

draxynnic · Jan 02, 2007, 12:10 PM // 12:10

While I'd admit I haven't really given Lyssa and Grenth a fair go yet, I have a certain fondness for Dwayna. With a build that works off using skills in rapid succession (I generally use enchantments like Heart of Holy Flame which are usually immediately thrown off with Pious Assault or Signet of Pious Light) the healing often simply overpowers the damage coming in.

I had my Survivor track stopped while using Avatar of Balthazar, so I'm not too fond of that form. Admittedly, though, I made a significant tactical blunder that led to that - in hindsight, I shouldn't have been playing a character with an active Survivor track while that tired.

NinjaKai · Jan 02, 2007, 03:01 PM // 15:01

All god forms have the same flaw when a player relies on one solely for their build. Since builds that revolve around a single god form are useless when the form runs out. Balancing a build to be effective when not in god form is definitely a trick to master.

crucifix · Jan 02, 2007, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by NinjaKai

@crucifix: Since when did the application of forms not matter in PvE. And since when have other PvP areas been 'trash' as you call it. Please atleast give some justification for your opinions.

OK, let me explain this then.

Forms in PvE: there are so many better elite options than forms that dont leave you stranded for a huge amount of time.

Trash PvP: FA, AB, RA. hopefully enough said, but im doubting it. FA: just lame, its PvE PvP, or im thinking a lot of the pve scrubs would like to think that. This is useless, dumbass people running around with dumbass builds and to many little PvE nublets QQ ing about luxons and kurzics. AB: see FA. RA: RA just angers me. Its almost impossibe to play in there because of the plethora of noobs that have no concept of what a viable build is. RA is more of the same QQ ing wammo invasion.

sure i may seem like an ass, but its because I am. Theres your justification.

for those of you that still want to play a melee dervish... see onslaught.

ensoriki · Jan 02, 2007, 05:28 PM // 17:28

*takes the drugs away from crucifix*

Str0b0 · Jan 02, 2007, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Forms in PvE, at least to my mind, aren't supposed to be something you base your build on like say SS. Example, I'm very fond of Dwayna, Ok So I'll toss up my enchants and wade on into combat. I won't put my form on yet but it's in my skill bar. As soon as I start stacking up hexes and degen I'll drop Dwayna on and bam I'm good to go. I out heal the degen and lots of the degen goes away as I drop hexes. It's good stuff. The skill continues to recharge while I'm in the form so I'm only really out of luck for about a minute and usually most battles are over because of damage output by the team, long before that minute has elapsed. If the battle is still raging on after that minute then it's usually because there are hexes and degen being thrown around and so now I'm ready for Dwayna to come back on again and save my proverbial hind quarters. Just because it's elite doesn't mean it has to be the main skill in your arsenal. Elites can support your other non elite skills too.

Honestly if you're looking for an elite to build an entire build around then Ebon Dust Aura is probably a better choice for a melee dervish. An Ebon scythe, ebon dust aura, crippling sweep, aura of thorns and you've got the potential to put some hurting on some enemies real fast. That's an elite you base a build around, not forms. Forms are useful in PvE you just have to have a build that can hold it's own without the use of the form or find a synergy with the form.

Esprit · Jan 03, 2007, 04:11 AM // 04:11

Side Note: <3 AB PvP

Avatar of Lyssa is probably my favorite form and the damage spikes are worth the elite spot. I used to run Avatar of Balthazar a lot, but found that I am not the source of focus fire in PvE most of the time.

Grenth may be nice in PvP, but in PvE it's a waste. You really don't run up against enough enchanted foes to make it worth the elite spot, you are better off with Ebon Dust Aura for damage mitigation.

Avatar of Dwayna is nice for areas with heavy hex foes and the extra healing is a nice bonus.

Avatar of Melanduru is my least favorite, first it has a high energy cost, limiting you for a bit on what you can use, unless you have someone spamming enchants on you.

ss1986v2 · Jan 03, 2007, 04:57 AM // 04:57

all the forms have their places, and all have some nice effects. for me, i dont like building around the avatars though. work on your build, find something that works, and plug in an avatar for some added bonus. in the end, its all a matter of preference. but heres my take:

melandru: very nice. the +200 hp is nice and the immunity to conditions is cool. my favorite aspect of melandru is the synergy with wearying strike. + dmg, deep wound, and spammable. whats not to like. the cost is the only downside. you cant just throw melandru into any build you feel like, you have to take into account your energy use. the elemental dmg can be a plus or a minus, depending on the situation.

dwayna: has its places, and does its job very well. i noticed that later in the game, hexes get a bit heavier, so the more hex removal you can muster the better. the health is nice but not what the form is all about. you will love this skill when you run into faintheartedness along with cover hexes. dwayna can become a real lifesaver.

baltazaar: i dont hate it as much as every one else, but it is my least favorite. as stated you can get the effect through using other skills. but what if you dont want to devote 3-4 skills? all the effects are ok, and theres not really any downside to using it. the holy dmg bonus is better than the elemental bonus of grenth and melandru. form of choice against undead, but maybe not your first choice elsewhere.

lyssa: my form of choice. low cost, conditional +dmg, added energy, and fits into most any build without any conflict. under an IAS you can dish out some nice dmg, and even when not using an IAS, timing your hits or using a 3/4 sec cast attack will still increase your dmg. can be a casters worst nightmare. or a frenzy/heal sig wammos too.

grenth: arguably the best form in pvp, along with melandru. enchantment rending without the drawbacks of OoA. doesnt have the same power in pve due to limited enchantment use, but you can still find places where it can be effective. as with melandru, the elemental dmg can be a plus or a minus, depending on the situation.

platnium_playa · Jan 03, 2007, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skuld

[skill]avatar of lyssa[/skill] + [skill]Twin Moon Sweep[/skill] + [skill]protector's strike[/skill] ^^

lol..prot strike is str. attr....woot for the +10dmg if there running.

dgb · Jan 03, 2007, 10:08 AM // 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by platnium_playa

lol..prot strike is str. attr....woot for the +10dmg if there running.

Target gains +3 joyfulness. I am the spatula.

Look at the skill again...

draxynnic · Jan 03, 2007, 10:49 AM // 10:49

*looks again*

*is reminded of something he coincidentally noticed about Protector's Strike earlier today*

Ow.

That's just plain devious. My hat goes off to you.

You've been reading Ranger spike builds, haven't you?

(To anyone who hasn't worked it out: The Strength attribute is completely irrelevant. Skuld isn't going to be fulfilling the condition for the damage from Protector's Strike anyway...)

EDIT: Have you considered trying out Swordsmanship for Sun and Moon - although that does require adrenaline, which may result in missed opportunities. On the other side, it does let you throw in Savage Slash... which adds insult to injury by interrupting the skill they tried to use as well as just plain adding injury if it was a spell...

7thPawn · Jan 03, 2007, 11:33 AM // 11:33

Good info here about the various avatars etc. Seeing some different points of view so it's good to see people are using them for different things for different reasons. So seeing that some people are having fun with them I decided to go uncap some of them. Quite hillarious to see like 15 guys in the courtyard surrounding the guy I need to smoke. So I figured I would try to peel them off one/couple at a time and got completely destroyed. Is there any particular way to handle smoking these turkeys if they are in their bloody strongholds? I hope someone has some sort of trick on the nasties for these skills cause I gots owned something nasty for a bit tonight.

Skuld · Jan 03, 2007, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by draxynnic

Have you considered trying out Swordsmanship for Sun and Moon - although that does require adrenaline, which may result in missed opportunities. On the other side, it does let you throw in Savage Slash... which adds insult to injury by interrupting the skill they tried to use as well as just plain adding injury if it was a spell...

Swords have less damage, and you can only get 12 swordsmanship, I wouldn't recommend it, and old guildy was using that; not too impressive.

edit: You can use Twin Moon Sweep with a sword, but I think the higher Scythe damage is better.