Curse

frojack · Feb 28, 2007, 11:24 PM // 23:24

Spawning? Piece-a-crap. Next question...

Seriously though, it offers nothing but skills. Would make as much difference to Ritualists if Restoration was the primary line.

The spirit-level idea is interesting, though it would still need more than that to make it actually 'count' for something (fragility will never leave spirits while they are immobile). Spirit creation time and recharge is a good start (after your level idea of course)...

upier · Feb 28, 2007, 11:52 PM // 23:52

i quite love the skills in it - rl, boon, feast, attuned, spirit to flesh, rapture, consume, .... - some very sweet skills!
too bad they completely trashed the skills that would benefit the most from high spawning - yes i am looking at you displacement and shelter!
so as a selectoin of skills - id consider it much better then the insanely bad fast casting. and thats currently the only reason why i like it.

Eroth · Mar 01, 2007, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Painbringer

Personally it is not any good unless you are laying spirits a Minion master or using the skills in spawning, but left over points need to go somewhere. If they did change it I would love an energy return when spirits die in the area. (Yours the parties and the enemy’s) A buff like +1 energy per 3 levels in spawning? Might help out those casting shelter, union, and so on.

that'd just be a bad copy cat of Soul Reaping.

I'd suggest something like +1 energy regen pip every 5 levels. so at 16 spawning you'd have +7 energy regen total 4+3=7. then there are skills to help gain more or sac or lose an energy regen pip to do something

Endurance Extended

Weapon Spell. You suffer from -3...1 energy and gain +5...30 armor and +50...300 maximum health. (Spawing Power) ( or something like that)

It's an example, but I think it'd be a good idea.

Bargamer · Mar 01, 2007, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Minion Bombers LOVE Spawning Power. Ok, Boon's mini-nerf means we no longer get Animate Bone Minions for free, but a cheaper Explosive Growth is nice. Spirit's Gift? Sure, what the hey. As for the additional effect, I love that too. Those few more seconds that a Bone Minion stays alive almost always guarantees that a Death Nova from my Hero or me lands.

The only time I ever really played around with Spirits was when I was under level 5 and those were the only creation spells I had. Once I got Animate Bone Minions from the Shing Jea teacher, it was GOODBYE Spirits, and don't come back! I don't got time to coddle and place a bunch of spirits, I've got quite enough on my plate casting Nova on minions that I can barely see, directing my NPCs, and marveling at the stupidity of noob players. Whammos with Mending and Suicide Assassins, I'm looking at you!

Other builds? Spawning Power is an all or nothing tree. You either love it or you hate it. The thing about Rits is that we don't necessarily need our Primary in order to do well. (Blah-blah-blah, insert more quotes from the wiki. I bore of this.)

Oso Minar · Mar 01, 2007, 03:15 AM // 03:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bargamer

Other builds? Spawning Power is an all or nothing tree. You either love it or you hate it. The thing about Rits is that we don't necessarily need our Primary in order to do well. (Blah-blah-blah, insert more quotes from the wiki. I bore of this.)

And that's exactly the problem.

Other classes have more to offer from those "other Ritualist builds blah blah" that you state. An E/Rt, although the spells don't hit quite as well, have much more staying power through the fights due to their huge Energy pools. Rangers and melee characters can get more out of our weapon skills because they can actually use Runes on the weapon's attribute (Not to mention Expertise, etc).

The fact is, while *some* builds benefit from Spawning Power, a VAST majority do not.

I have occasionally seen Rangers, Paragons, and Dervishes complain that because their weapons draw their major power off a single attribute (Warriors have Strength to augment their skills...a useful primary). Because of this, a subclassed R, D, or P can pump 12 points into the weapon skill and go to town nearly as effectively as the main class itself. However, those skills can't perform all duties as well as the main class; without Expertise other characters have a hard time with E-management, without Mysticism characters can't access the Avatar forms or miss out on free energy again, and without Leadership many shouts and chants lose a lot of effect, not to mention become energy-intensive.

So what you have from those characters is only ONE aspect of their character that can successfully be performed by an outside character; I can load up a decent spearchucker Rt/P, for instance, but there's no way I could do anything else without Leadership points.

However, with a primary attribute with as useless an effect as Spawning Power, as long as the build doesn't focus directly on the few Spawning builds out there, a different character could easily pick it up. I've seen Restoration healers with both Elementalist and Necromancer primaries (they have great e-regen skills). A Channeling subbed class is viable, due to the location of good elites (DwG, OoS, SoS) actually IN the Channeling tree. Heck, as I've said before Rangers can get great benefit of our weapon spells, especially 'cause they can pump a Rune on Marksmanship and Barrage away.

And so.
Ritualists can viably take on ONE aspect of other classes (DPS) without their primary.
Other characters can take MANY aspects of the Ritualist class (DPS, Healing) without their primary.

That just presents a problem to me, in my eyes. There needs to be an incentive to actually play the Ritualist class, and not simply relegate us to a "Good Secondary Class". There needs to be some sort of e-management or bonus to our damage in the Primary attribute; the one we have is simply too narrow and as I've said before, is not necessary or even useful for all builds.

lightblade · Mar 01, 2007, 05:55 AM // 05:55

Spawning's inheret effect may not be much, but the skills under the tree offers a lot.

Bargamer · Mar 01, 2007, 07:42 AM // 07:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oso Minar

Ritualists can viably take on ONE aspect of other classes (DPS) without their primary.
Other characters can take MANY aspects of the Ritualist class (DPS, Healing) without their primary.

It took me a few re-reads to parse that. So essentially, you're saying that without Spawning Power, the only viable Rit builds is DPS, and that there are many viable Any/Rt builds?

Oso, I applaud you on a well-written post. The fact that Anet all but admits the former in a State of the Game article, the wiki entry on Spawning repeats both, and a casual scan of the PVE and PVP builds pretty much cements that you've got a point.

HOWEVER: If you ARE a Primary Rit, Spawning Power is a Attribute you want to put points in, (if not max, then at least close to it,) or none at all. Or you're a DPS build, of which there are plenty others, or a Resto/Healing Rit, which some argue has more raw healing than a Divine/Healing Monk-Primary. (Though I've yet to try it, as Monks have a tough job. Healbot comic, anyone?) Could it be more versitile? Sure. A lot of the suggestions in this and other threads have explored this topic. The closest that Rits get to full flexibility is Attuned was Songkai, and to a lesser degree, Renewing Memories. Do Rits get less love than the Core classes? You can't deny it. Is that ever going to change? Not a chance in hell.

The sad truth is, most Ritualist builds are defined by or invited for their secondaries, and most secondary Rits get most of our versatility without the taint of association, as they can easily switch when the novelty wears off, and pretend nothing ever happened. We got one week of glory when a bunch of Rits rioted through HA, but that will probably never happen again, and we're likely to be nerfed afterwards for our impertinence.

There are exceptions, of course. I run an effective Rt/Monk Attuned Resto build that can run no Monk spells, but if I didn't (falsely) switch my secondary, I'd have a hella time getting invited AS a Resto Rit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oso Minar

The fact is, while *some* builds benefit from Spawning Power, a VAST majority do not.

Which of five probable meanings do you mean by that? I don't want to offend you (and waste my time) by assuming one meaning, when you really mean another.

Edit: Found out another meaning. Responding as well to your last paragraph.

The way I read the the State of the Game article, Anet wants to lock us in as Rit Lords or Spirit Spammers. Given that, we do have Energy Management in Spawning Power: Attuned, Boon of Creation, Renewing Memories, Reclaim Essence, etc. Yes, it's narrow. Yes, I do believe it's unfair. Part of the reason I even made the Minion Bomber build to buck this reputation. It took lots of creativity, testing, and endurance. Which is why it succeeds in PVE. Few thought it would work, and I experience a great sense of gratification every time some nay-sayer is proved wrong, or a new player decides to try my build. That's why I play Guild Wars.

frojack · Mar 01, 2007, 11:46 AM // 11:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oso Minar

And that's exactly the problem.

Other classes have more to offer from those "other Ritualist builds blah blah" that you state. An E/Rt, although the spells don't hit quite as well, have much more staying power through the fights due to their huge Energy pools. Rangers and melee characters can get more out of our weapon skills because they can actually use Runes on the weapon's attribute (Not to mention Expertise, etc).

The fact is, while *some* builds benefit from Spawning Power, a VAST majority do not.

I have occasionally seen Rangers, Paragons, and Dervishes complain that because their weapons draw their major power off a single attribute (Warriors have Strength to augment their skills...a useful primary). Because of this, a subclassed R, D, or P can pump 12 points into the weapon skill and go to town nearly as effectively as the main class itself. However, those skills can't perform all duties as well as the main class; without Expertise other characters have a hard time with E-management, without Mysticism characters can't access the Avatar forms or miss out on free energy again, and without Leadership many shouts and chants lose a lot of effect, not to mention become energy-intensive.

So what you have from those characters is only ONE aspect of their character that can successfully be performed by an outside character; I can load up a decent spearchucker Rt/P, for instance, but there's no way I could do anything else without Leadership points.

However, with a primary attribute with as useless an effect as Spawning Power, as long as the build doesn't focus directly on the few Spawning builds out there, a different character could easily pick it up. I've seen Restoration healers with both Elementalist and Necromancer primaries (they have great e-regen skills). A Channeling subbed class is viable, due to the location of good elites (DwG, OoS, SoS) actually IN the Channeling tree. Heck, as I've said before Rangers can get great benefit of our weapon spells, especially 'cause they can pump a Rune on Marksmanship and Barrage away.

And so.
Ritualists can viably take on ONE aspect of other classes (DPS) without their primary.
Other characters can take MANY aspects of the Ritualist class (DPS, Healing) without their primary.

That just presents a problem to me, in my eyes. There needs to be an incentive to actually play the Ritualist class, and not simply relegate us to a "Good Secondary Class". There needs to be some sort of e-management or bonus to our damage in the Primary attribute; the one we have is simply too narrow and as I've said before, is not necessary or even useful for all builds.

This is essentially the crux of the matter. Most (80%) of the skills in spawning I can live without. So in essence, the only consistent advantage of being a primary ritualist is the fact that you can go beyond 12 in your attributes. That and the use of ghost-forge armour...

By the way, I missed your earlier post about accelerated spirit creation time. It seems most of us are on the same page. We just need to introduce Anet to the book it seems...

Terra Xin · Mar 01, 2007, 12:29 PM // 12:29

Well as long as improvement is more than just a lousy +4% health for spirits, that currently has no inherent leveling of the spirit to provide armor. You can even convert it into an enchantment that does the same thing as the inherent Spawning Power, and it wont even be overpowered :S...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

But would you consider the "not requiring of Spawning Power to make good builds" a good thing or a bad thing? Or like me do you feel there should always be a reason to use the primary attribute and that the primary attribute is there for a reason?

The good thing about Spawning Power is that Ritualists suffer the least if they dont invest points into their primary attribute, which allows them to spec higher into other attributes. The problem is that if a Ritualist does specify into Spawning power for the direct purposes of using the inherent benefits, that they will gain the least benefits compared with the other classes. The other thing I don't like about Spawning Power is that its got the feeling as though it's a 'Miscellaneous Attribute Line'. You have skills like Spirits Strength, and then you have Weapon energy management skills, anti-blind... a little diverse in some ways, none of the skills I mentioned reflect the use of +4% health towards spirits.

Pick Me · Mar 01, 2007, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Attributes only?

I know this has been said before but let's look at this again:

Strength: % of armor penetration
Mesmer: Fast Casting
Monk: added healing per monk spell on target ally
Necromancer: energy gained per death (not own death)
Elementalist: Max Energy
Ranger: Energy reduction cost for non-spells
Assassin: Energy gain on critical hits
Ritualist: +% boost to created creature's health
Dervish: +health & +energy whenever an enchantment is removed/ends on Dervish
Paragon: +energy for everyone who will listen to the Paragon

Warriors use Strength to reduce the amount of times they must use energy to defend/kill a target

Mesmers use Fast Cast to reduce the amount wasted time to cast long casting time spells (like Ether Feast)

Necromancers still wait for things to die (casts spells slowly, so wait times are still a drag).

Monks must wait for allies to take a certain amount of damage before healing, else they over heal.

Elementalists just takes more time to scream "my energy is 0 of 100".

Rangers utilize Expertise to increase the number of energy attacks they can use before they run out of energy.

Assassins either kill or get killed for staying in the fray too long. Energy regain only comes in face-to-face combat (dangerous).

Ritualists use spawning to create healthier undead (minions/spirits), this means they last longer, so they don't have to waste energy as quickly to respawn them.

Paragons must be heard by allies or energy management is basically 0.

Dervish requires many enchantments on them in order to gain any energy back.

If you look at the abilites of each attribute only, yes, Spawning is poor. But then again, look at a smiting monk with Divine Favor, DF is wasted. A Signet using Mesmer, FC is wasted. A non-enchanting Dervish is pretty much wasted with maxed out Mysticism. Or a non-shouting Paragon, Leadership is useless.

People should stop just looking at the passive abilities of the attribute and also look at the skills in that attribute.

So I'm fine with Spawning, even if I don't use spirits or mininons (yes, I'm a Rit/N).

Silent Elvin Ranger · Mar 01, 2007, 09:16 PM // 21:16

You have apoint there, but its not entirely correct.

Devine Favor IS wasted on smiting, but thats 1 thing. Dervish is wasted with max mysticism and no enchants...but i should hope that all dervs use at least 1 enchant, for a vast majority of the skill are enchants. Paragon has mostly shouts, with some spear attacks etc., but the majority of paragons use shouts. Mesmers FC + sig = suck...but u dont use as many skills compared to spells.

My point is: Sure all primaries can fail on a few things, they are not perfect, but what im saying is Spawning is basically saying "SPIRITS OR DIE!" (not die, but u dont get boost) Most primaries effect the MAJORITY of things for that class. But not spawning, spawning ONLY effects spirits (or minions if thats ur deal). Im saying it must effect all or most builds, because as stated, not all rits use spirits. In fact not many do, only spirit spammers. (yes u use 1 or 2 in a resto build, but still nothing to put a huge amount of points into Spawning)

Oh and this is NOT about spawning skills (which r generelly good), its about the effect.

I agree with the idea of effecting "spawning items, weapons, spirits". I think that weapon spells should last longer, you can hold items for longer, and spirits stay alive longer. I reccomend maybe 2% bonus per level of spawning. With this, even at 16 spawning, things like Weapon of Warding still won't be over powered (3 seconds longer is good, but not overpowering). I think this makes the ritualists primary more equivalent to other primaries.

~Silent

Evilsod · Mar 01, 2007, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pick Me

If you look at the abilites of each attribute only, yes, Spawning is poor. But then again, look at a smiting monk with Divine Favor, DF is wasted. A Signet using Mesmer, FC is wasted. A non-enchanting Dervish is pretty much wasted with maxed out Mysticism. Or a non-shouting Paragon, Leadership is useless.

Erm... Smiting/Protection. I ran it quite well during Prophecies with Zealots Fire. Now i have no need to run Divine Favour at all with smiting since i can spec Deadly Arts for Assassins Promise. But does it matter? I don't intend to use *any* skills from the Divine Favour line.

Signet Mesmers... that was the case. Now Fast Casting has skills to increase the cast time of signets too. But then again signet mesmers are almost completely and utterly useless (if you think you can its not better than a normal mesmer so just keep quiet...). But again, a Signet Mesmer would've had no reason to spec in there primary.

Dervish's still have 4 regen, even without Mysticism. Of course with the high cost of there attack skills/enchantments Mysticism is needed. But yet again, if you don't spec Mysticism because you don't have enchantments if probably won't be using any skills from the attribute.

As for Spawning Power... The single greatest energy management skill available to a Rit (Namely, Attuned was Songkai) is in that stat. Chances are you'll be using 1 or even 0 spirits but yet you still had to spec in it. Spawning Power is next to useless unless your running a very heavy Communing spirit spammer build, which has also been nerfed alot so is extremely energy intensive. You can try to pass off that Destruction needs all the health it can get... but since when? Draw Spirit or Swap are there to move it in when needed, the other major problem now. Rupture Soul is in this stat... which ironically puts all that extra health to no use what-so-ever as it instantly destroys the spirit but thankfully is an extremely powerful skill.

The skills in this stat are the only reason i ever bother to run it anymore, for all intensive purposes its completely useless.

Eroth · Mar 02, 2007, 11:36 AM // 11:36

I guess the use of Spawning is all up to the player. As you can see, everyone has mixed thoughts about it. Some don't. If it works for you then use it, if it doesn't then don't. Not much I can really say. Each side has it's strong points.

Terra Xin · Mar 02, 2007, 12:17 PM // 12:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Erm... Smiting/Protection. I ran it quite well during Prophecies with Zealots Fire. Now i have no need to run Divine Favour at all with smiting since i can spec Deadly Arts for Assassins Promise. But does it matter? I don't intend to use *any* skills from the Divine Favour line.

Signet Mesmers... that was the case. Now Fast Casting has skills to increase the cast time of signets too. But then again signet mesmers are almost completely and utterly useless (if you think you can its not better than a normal mesmer so just keep quiet...). But again, a Signet Mesmer would've had no reason to spec in there primary.

Dervish's still have 4 regen, even without Mysticism. Of course with the high cost of there attack skills/enchantments Mysticism is needed. But yet again, if you don't spec Mysticism because you don't have enchantments if probably won't be using any skills from the attribute.

As for Spawning Power... The single greatest energy management skill available to a Rit (Namely, Attuned was Songkai) is in that stat. Chances are you'll be using 1 or even 0 spirits but yet you still had to spec in it. Spawning Power is next to useless unless your running a very heavy Communing spirit spammer build, which has also been nerfed alot so is extremely energy intensive. You can try to pass off that Destruction needs all the health it can get... but since when? Draw Spirit or Swap are there to move it in when needed, the other major problem now. Rupture Soul is in this stat... which ironically puts all that extra health to no use what-so-ever as it instantly destroys the spirit but thankfully is an extremely powerful skill.

The skills in this stat are the only reason i ever bother to run it anymore, for all intensive purposes its completely useless.

I can think of 4 skills in Spawning Power that instantly kill your spirits... maybe 5. Two of them are elites, anyway.

Oso Minar · Mar 02, 2007, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eroth

I guess the use of Spawning is all up to the player. As you can see, everyone has mixed thoughts about it. Some don't. If it works for you then use it, if it doesn't then don't. Not much I can really say. Each side has it's strong points.

That's the PROBLEM, as I've been saying the whole time, haha!

I don't see very many Necromancers complaining that Soul Reaping doesn't have any place in their builds. I don't hear Elementalists complaining that they have a larger Energy pool to work with. I don't see Warriors complaining about the damage increase Strength gives them, no matter the weapon.

Spawning Power, in its current form, is simply too narrow to encompass ALL aspects of Ritualist play. That's it, that's the only gripe that people have with it currently. It pigeonholes us into playing a certain style or two, and that makes me a sad panda.

Frankly, I don't know why people are arguing so much. It's not like we're arguing against the current 4% boost. I actually think that's nice...IF you're playing with spirits or minions. However, for those of us who actually like the variety of other styles, the attribute is worthless! And it's just those few people who are content in their little hole who seem to want to argue.

Change the attribute to also encompass other Ritualist styles, and you'll end all arguments on this issue. That's all.

Dr Strangelove · Mar 02, 2007, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Spawning is like strength - awesome skills, piece of crap worthless effect. True, it may not have been the best game design to make a primary effect only one aspect of a character, but it's been balanced out a bit and doesn't feel too much like it needs to be changed.

Coloneh · Mar 02, 2007, 08:08 PM // 20:08

I Like spawning. It makes necromancer MMs look even MORE stupid and useless.

Pick Me · Mar 02, 2007, 08:09 PM // 20:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Erm... Smiting/Protection. I ran it quite well during Prophecies with Zealots Fire. Now i have no need to run Divine Favour at all with smiting since i can spec Deadly Arts for Assassins Promise. But does it matter? I don't intend to use *any* skills from the Divine Favour line.

Signet Mesmers... that was the case. Now Fast Casting has skills to increase the cast time of signets too. But then again signet mesmers are almost completely and utterly useless (if you think you can its not better than a normal mesmer so just keep quiet...). But again, a Signet Mesmer would've had no reason to spec in there primary.

Dervish's still have 4 regen, even without Mysticism. Of course with the high cost of there attack skills/enchantments Mysticism is needed. But yet again, if you don't spec Mysticism because you don't have enchantments if probably won't be using any skills from the attribute.

As for Spawning Power... The single greatest energy management skill available to a Rit (Namely, Attuned was Songkai) is in that stat. Chances are you'll be using 1 or even 0 spirits but yet you still had to spec in it. Spawning Power is next to useless unless your running a very heavy Communing spirit spammer build, which has also been nerfed alot so is extremely energy intensive. You can try to pass off that Destruction needs all the health it can get... but since when? Draw Spirit or Swap are there to move it in when needed, the other major problem now. Rupture Soul is in this stat... which ironically puts all that extra health to no use what-so-ever as it instantly destroys the spirit but thankfully is an extremely powerful skill.

The skills in this stat are the only reason i ever bother to run it anymore, for all intensive purposes its completely useless.

Honestly, I fee the same way with Strength. If I choose to have skills in Strength, then I'll boost it, if I have 0 skills in strength, then I don't invest heavily in it.

If you have attributes but no skills, how much of a point is it to invest heavily in it (Soul Reaping and Energy Storage excluded)?

Even FC & Expertise people don't max out (due to the diminishing of returns).

Example: A Warrior who plans only to run won't care about the % armor penetration.

Soul Reaping was the only passive attribute that you would put points into because of its abilities. Not for any skill, because in Prophecies, there were no skills. FC had Mantra of Recovery, but even then no one maxes it out.

Yes, I agree that as an attribute by itself, it is the worst. But lets look at the reason for its existance.

Strength - adds damage (simple enough right?)
Fast Casting - spells get unleashed faster
Energy Storage - increased maxed energy
Critical Strike - increases chances of getting a Critical Strike (will wonders never cease)
Soul Reaping - gaining energy for the souls released from this world
Expertise - lower energy costs because Rangers knows how to be more efficient with skills (they are experts)
Divine Favor - additional Healing derived from Dwayna whenever a Monk spell is used on an ally
Spawning - added health to anything "summoned/spawned/created" by the ritualist
Leadership - energy gained by allies who hear the shouts/chants made by the inspiring leader/Paragon
Mysticism - energy and health gained whenever an enchantment is removed/ended on the Dervish. Hmmm... not sure about this one.

I'm guessing that is how the developers did the passive bonuses for these attributes.

Bargamer · Mar 05, 2007, 04:58 AM // 04:58

Good points, Pick Me and Oso. I guess if Anet really wanted a flexible jack-of-all-trades Profession, their Primary could be more broad and encompassing. I mean, usually, if someone wanted to play around with undead, they'd either make a Necro or a Ranger. Ritualist is kind of a last-pick.

kylelk05 · Mar 05, 2007, 05:27 AM // 05:27

spawning power is actually important if you're using attuned was songkai for restoration builds and for defensive spirits. why? well, if you have barely any points in spawning power then your spirits are going to die VERY fast. theyre going to need health....