Curse

Silent Elvin Ranger · Feb 28, 2007, 01:10 AM // 01:10

In my opinion, Spawning really is not that great. It doesn't help too much and it makes the ritualist a less wanted class. Compare it to any other classes Primary and you will see that this primary, well...sucks.

Adding extra health to spirits is not that significant. I mean it increases the power of a few rituals by increase there health so they have more to lose, but its still not worth the spot of a primary attribute.

What about Resto rits or Lightning Nuker rits? They dont use too many spirits, and draining points into Spawning just makes the build less efective. Only thing that benefits a bit is pure Spirit rits. But ANet is trying to get rid of spirit spammers, so it is becoming less and less favored.

What do you think?

~Silent

Geishe · Feb 28, 2007, 01:22 AM // 01:22

its one of the worst primaries. The only point of spawning for me is Attuned was Songkai, Explosive MM, and Spirits Strength.

Silent Elvin Ranger · Feb 28, 2007, 01:34 AM // 01:34

I know that Rits got a few good buffs recently, but they (like the mesmer), need a huge buff to make them good enough to be a well-balenced character.

Rit as healer=beaten by monk
Rit as Nuker=beaten by ele
Rit as spirit spammer=the best spirit spammer, but they are getting nerfed...so its worthless
Rit as mm=beaten by necro (soul reaping=unlimited casting)

~Silent

Geishe · Feb 28, 2007, 02:25 AM // 02:25

That I disagree with.

Rit as healer beats monk, monk as PROT beats rit. Rits raw healing is unmatched currently... on top of unstrippable weapon spells.

Rit as nuker is currently on par, I have seen some RA matches where people complained rits got OVERbuffed, but I believe this is how channeling should have been in the first place.

Rit as Spirit Spammer... still works, you just cant focus on defense now, including a mix of offensive + defensive (mostly union) is the way to go now. Or full out offense works >.<!

Rit as MM... rits cant play mm >.> Explosive Minionmancer cant be played bt necros... theyre basically two seperate builds of similar skills.

Spawning power is mediocre, but the skills inside are nice.

Rits are very very very very very very verstaile characters, use it to your advantage.

Eroth · Feb 28, 2007, 03:44 AM // 03:44

All the other Primaries match, sorta of a patern. The brutes do more damage (war=Strength), rangers use less energy, monks heal more, mes shutdown or w/e faster, sins do semi-random dmg spikes, so on and so forth but the rt's just sucks. It could have been something to do with health bonuses to the character, enchantment extention, or even additional dmg spirits and channeling does. Something productive. Yeah it was good in the beginning, but the spirits got nerfed.

Calen The Civl · Feb 28, 2007, 03:50 AM // 03:50

Spawning power as an attribute is poor in its influences. As a skill tree it has wonderful utility spells, however.

Generally, spawning power means nothing for spirits because they are so fragile to begin with. At best, it gives a level 8 spirit 1 or 2 more hits.

Rits are not meant to be MMs. However, using a Flesh Golem as a familiar to cast weapon spells onto can be effective.

Perhaps Spawning Power should be changed to the following:

For every 2 attribute levels, all created creatures gain 1 more level.

This would allow for lvl 15 spirits at 16 spawning and 15 communing; it would also allow the familiars of a rit to be a higher level than a necro's (level 21 flesh golem at 12 death + 8 levels at 16 spawning = level 29 golem). Basically quality over quantity.

Both of these would address some of the complaints surrounding extremely fragile spirits. It would not outshine a necro mm because a rit cannot keep any more than a few minions alive and going.

Added: This could lead to more damage to the spirits and minions if designed. However, this would be balanced by making the rit more fragile if they are running 2 superior runes.

Eroth · Feb 28, 2007, 04:05 AM // 04:05

good idea. wonder if we could submit this to Anet and see if enough GW Guru officals and so on (such as leaders from top guilds and the owners of HzH and Cavalon) would sign something to represent as a player acceptance of the change. It we do...

/signed

Cebe · Feb 28, 2007, 09:04 AM // 09:04

My thoughts on spawning...I don't leave home without it.

I, more often than not, go spirit spamming and in doing so I max out spawning...this is mainly to make Rit Lord work as well as possible. I like to able to use spirits such as Displacement as much as possible since they go down so fast. which I see as being important for spirits like Union and Displacement which take damage when they make something happen. I use a custom-made staff with Communing +1 (20%) on it so 1/5th of the time my spirits are a higher level than they normally would be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Geishe

Rit as healer beats monk, monk as PROT beats rit. Rits raw healing is unmatched currently... on top of unstrippable weapon spells.

Although I agree with you (Rit Healers > Monk Healers) last time I made that statement on this forum I got totally flamed by a lot of angry monks. Evidently they still want a monopoly. I just shut up about it because I didn't see the point of arguing...I'm just sitting here quietly knowing that my Rit can chuck out some, frankly, rediculously huge party heals. Nice to see someone else thinks the same thing. Now watch your back...the monks are coming to feast on your eyes!!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calen The Civl

Generally, spawning power means nothing for spirits because they are so fragile to begin with. At best, it gives a level 8 spirit 1 or 2 more hits.

A good Ritualist knows where to place their spirits on the battlefield. Protective spirits stay at the back right out of harms way. This means that they don't get hit as often, if at all. Let's look at Union for example. A Level 8 Union with 0 Spawning can take 14 lots of 15 Damage. The same Level 8 Union with 16 Spawning can take about 23 lots of 15 damage. So providing you know how to place your spirits, they shouldn't get hit too much, and so Spawning will make them considerably more useful due to their higher health.

Umm, as for the Spawning change... /notsigned.
Spawning is fine as it is and if your spirits are dying too fast...put them somewhere else...or take Draw Spirit to move them out of harms way. To do that to Spawning would make RItualists very overpowered imo.

lightblade · Feb 28, 2007, 09:21 AM // 09:21

Ritualist beats both monk and elementist when its in the right hand.

In newbies' hand, monk and elementist do look better because their use are pretty much mindless button smashing. Only thing that monk need to do is seen who ever is low on hp and heal! There's plenty of time I've seen monk cast [skill]Guardian[/skill] on people that's low on hp but NOT being attacked by melee.

In experienced player's hand, Mo + E and Rt are evenly matched. Both can be good. But in expert's hand Rt actually exceed both of them.

Example.
1. Barrage + Splinter Weapon hit 500 AoE dmg over 3 seconds. I don't see any elementist can do that. If you precast Splinter weapon on all your allies, you can go beyond this.
2. Warmonger Weapon need to be casted on the right target to interrupt infinitely. I don't see any mesmer can do this.
3. Attuned Was Songkai + Restoration Magic. Ritualist can be more durable in battle than monks. By the time monk is out of energy, Rt can still be going.

Spirit Spamming is just as brainless as monk and elementist's play style. Weapon spells are the true power of Ritualist, because unlike enchantments, this canNOT be removed.

noocoo · Feb 28, 2007, 09:40 AM // 09:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by lightblade

Spirit Spamming is just as brainless as monk and elementist's play style. Weapon spells are the true power of Ritualist, because unlike enchantments, this canNOT be removed.

Yes,

but spawning power attribute is almost useless for weapon spells, restoration spells and channeling attack spells.

That is the point from OP I guess.

Cebe · Feb 28, 2007, 10:00 AM // 10:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by noocoo

Yes,

but spawning power attribute is almost useless for weapon spells, restoration spells and channeling attack spells.

That is the point from OP I guess.

I wouldn't go do far to say Spawning was useless for anything other than Spirit Spamming. The thing I've noticed about most primary attributes is that they incorporate the energy management for most classes (mesmers excluded). This basically means that you can't effectively use another profession's primary attribute as your energy management.

Example being Elementalist...both Master of Magic and Ether Prism do nothing at 0 Energy Storage...Elemental Attunement is only JUST usable providing you are also using other elementalist skills (in which case...just go play ele). Rit e-management is in the spawming line (Spirit Chanelling, Attuned was Songkai, Renewing Memories..). Ranger e-management is their attribute, Expertise, itself, as is the Necromancer's primary Soul Reaping. This all seems to be to force you to use your own profession's energy management.

Back to my point...I use a Spawning/Restoration build when I go Healing Rit. Having said that, I only use one spawning skill...and that is Spirit Channeling which I use as my e-management (yes, sometimes I go AwS + Serpent's Quickness, but I favour Spirit Channeling atm). So it is almost always beneficial to use your primary attribute. Exceptions would be Warriors and Mesmers where it may not make a great deal of difference. I find Spawning to have some pretty robust energy management skills in though.

lightblade · Feb 28, 2007, 10:10 AM // 10:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

...The thing I've noticed about most primary attributes is that they incorporate the energy management for most classes (mesmers excluded). This basically means that you can't effectively use another profession's primary attribute as your energy management.

...

How come I never noticed that before...

Warrior - Strength: Have skills that build adrenaline and recover energy
Ranger - Expertise: Reduce energy cost.
Monk - Divine Favor: Additional healing to reduce overall energy spending
Mesmer - Fast Casting: Exception
Elementalist - Energy Storage: Help recover energy
Necromancer - Soul Reaping: Recover energy on creature death
Assassin - Critical Strike: Recover energy on critical hits
Paragon - Leadership: Recover energy on shout/chant
Dervish - Mystism: Recover energy on enchantment end

Primary attribute really is that energy management line.

Terra Xin · Feb 28, 2007, 11:28 AM // 11:28

I don't like the inherent bonus you get from Spawning Power. It's easy for me to make builds that don't require spawning power. For any other profession, it would hurt me when I don't have skills in that primary attribute...

Cebe · Feb 28, 2007, 11:40 AM // 11:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terra Xin

I don't like the inherent bonus you get from Spawning Power. It's easy for me to make builds that don't require spawning power. For any other profession, it would hurt me when I don't have skills in that primary attribute...

But would you consider the "not requiring of Spawning Power to make good builds" a good thing or a bad thing? Or like me do you feel there should always be a reason to use the primary attribute and that the primary attribute is there for a reason?

Geishe · Feb 28, 2007, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

I wouldn't go do far to say Spawning was useless for anything other than Spirit Spamming. The thing I've noticed about most primary attributes is that they incorporate the energy management for most classes (mesmers excluded). This basically means that you can't effectively use another profession's primary attribute as your energy management.

Back to my point...I use a Spawning/Restoration build when I go Healing Rit. Having said that, I only use one spawning skill...and that is Spirit Channeling which I use as my e-management (yes, sometimes I go AwS + Serpent's Quickness, but I favour Spirit Channeling atm). So it is almost always beneficial to use your primary attribute. Exceptions would be Warriors and Mesmers where it may not make a great deal of difference. I find Spawning to have some pretty robust energy management skills in though.

That, I never noticed!! However, the problem I see is that Ritualists have more than one facet for energy management... and that screws up spawning power for me. Like Channeling, including an essence strike can already help out a LOT (and with bloodsong, spirits are easy to keep up.) Restoration is extremely versatile, with needing only one attribute line to heal effectively... thus you can easily use AwS as e management or just grab a /me secondary for inspiration. So its viable to say spawning power provides ritualists energy management, but unfortunately, its not the only way... unlike Soul Reaping or Energy Storage... (cant complain about the otherl primaries ^.^)

Offering of Spirit is another form of energy management in the channeling line... most can argue its not the best elite, but it just reinforces how you do not necessarily need spawning to get the benefits of energy management. Its other benefit (the spirit's health benefit) can greatly help SOME builds and hinder other builds.

However, every once in a while, I just like grabbing a pair of daggers and stabbing people with spirits strength for 100+. Oh, joy!

Painbringer · Feb 28, 2007, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Personally it is not any good unless you are laying spirits a Minion master or using the skills in spawning, but left over points need to go somewhere. If they did change it I would love an energy return when spirits die in the area. (Yours the parties and the enemy’s) A buff like +1 energy per 3 levels in spawning? Might help out those casting shelter, union, and so on.

Calen The Civl · Feb 28, 2007, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

A good Ritualist knows where to place their spirits on the battlefield. Protective spirits stay at the back right out of harms way. This means that they don't get hit as often, if at all. Let's look at Union for example. A Level 8 Union with 0 Spawning can take 14 lots of 15 Damage. The same Level 8 Union with 16 Spawning can take about 23 lots of 15 damage. So providing you know how to place your spirits, they shouldn't get hit too much, and so Spawning will make them considerably more useful due to their higher health.

I agree a good Ritualist knows where to place spirits on the battlefield. There can be an entire science around spirit placement in this game. However, from my experiences I have noticed offensive spirits tend to draw aggro to them despite being the longbow distance away from the enemy. The Ai registers them as a low AL target and tend to run after them even before the monks. The change I suggested would just allow these spirits to be similar to minions in their survivability when this occurs.

Protection Spirits may become a bit overpowered. They would be back to a similar level to the old Ritual Lord build if spawning power was changed to what I proposed. However, unlike the timing of the original Ritual Lord build, now there are many ways to quickly kill spirits a ritual lord would lay down. Such as Gaze of Fury and other spirit specific destroying methods pvp players have at their disposal. Plus a 2 superior rune running ritualist is a very easy target to spike even far in the back line. Another balance for this would be to increase the Sin's shadow stepping distance.

I do agree with lightblade. Weapon spells (and healing for long periods of time) are where the rit especially shines. Ideally, I would like to see spawning power changed to something that would help with most of a rit's potential builds. However, my suggestion just sticks to the spirit of Spawning Power's current effect.

Cebe · Feb 28, 2007, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calen The Civl

I agree a good Ritualist knows where to place spirits on the battlefield. There can be an entire science around spirit placement in this game. However, from my experiences I have noticed offensive spirits tend to draw aggro to them despite being the longbow distance away from the enemy. The Ai registers them as a low AL target and tend to run after them even before the monks. The change I suggested would just allow these spirits to be similar to minions in their survivability when this occurs.

I generally don't get the enemy coming after my spirits straight away, even the offensive ones.

On the odd occaision they do I leave them to destroy the spirits I've made and move elsewhere. This usually throws their aggro.

Oso Minar · Feb 28, 2007, 09:32 PM // 21:32

Spawning Power?

Wonderful skills. Horrible additional effect.

The main problem lies in the Ritualist's versatility. If the Ritualist chooses to focus on anything OTHER than spirit-spamming (which we do quite frequently), Spawning greatly loses its appeal. So much so, in fact, that I'll often see E/Rt or Me/Rt folks popping up instead to take advantage of a bigger Energy pool or faster casts.

I don't know how it can be "fixed", either. All I can see is that other primaries affect ALL aspects of the character, and the Spawning attribute does not. Strength adds damage to ALL weapon types. Fast Casting makes ALL spells cast faster. Energy Storage gives an Energy pool that they can use for ALL spells.

Meanwhile, some Ritualists (myself included) often run bars without a single spirit, making our primary useless.

So how do you fix that? Well, in my opinion, the definition of "spawning" should be looked at.

When we cast an item spell, we create a pot of ashes that we hold. Spawning a pot, if you will?
When we cast a weapon spell, the image of the weapon is changed. Spawning an upgraded weapon, maybe?

So why not have Spawning Power have an added effect on all of our creation spells? Now, having a 4% bonus on all creation spells might be a bit much, having our weapon spells do 48% more damage with 12 Spawning is certainly too much. Why not scale it so that at rank 6 it adds one level to the creation spell's level, at rank 12 it adds two? Even that may be overpowered, but at least it would create an effect that affects ALL aspects of being a Ritualist.

I have no idea. All I know is that our Primary attribute certainly does not affect all aspects of our class. There are some good skills, but the effect that we need is absent.

Calen The Civl · Feb 28, 2007, 10:25 PM // 22:25

You have very good points, Oso. Mostly when I play my ritualist, I either have no spirits on the bar or no points in spawning at all when I do use spirits. I mainly use the spawning line for the great skills in it than the effect.

Perhaps we could get even bolder and rename the attribute line completely. Something like "Spiritual Attunement" for example. That way there would be more freedom to change the effect to influence all aspects of the class than the current definition of Spawning Power allows.

Throwing out another idea that is likely overpowered but might get some other ideas flowing:

Spiritual Attunement: You become more attuned to the spiritual realm, and your tranquility soothes all those around you. For every 5 attribute points, you and all party members within earshot of you use 1 less energy for every spell cast.

Likely this would be overpowered, considering at rank 15 all spells around the rit would cost 3 energy less. Hence 5 energy spells would cost just 2 energy for all party members. It is just another idea to toss around however.