Curse

FalconDance · Dec 01, 2006, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

There is no "best build" for a ranger, only a build that is best for the situation. Even then, personal play style often makes one build more effective for one person, while another build may be best for another.

Exactly.

My NF ranger just started exploring in the Desolation (quite an odd place). Her skillbar at present: Burning Arrow, Apply Poison, Hunter's Shot, Crossfire, Power Shot (seldom used), (Cap Sig), Troll Unguent, and Sunspear Rez. Use of these quite efficiently kill anything I've come across so far.

Are there "better" skill sets to use? Probably. But right now, it works well.

Evilsod · Dec 01, 2006, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by FalconDance

Exactly.

My NF ranger just started exploring in the Desolation (quite an odd place). Her skillbar at present: Burning Arrow, Apply Poison, Hunter's Shot, Crossfire, Power Shot (seldom used), (Cap Sig), Troll Unguent, and Sunspear Rez. Use of these quite efficiently kill anything I've come across so far.

Are there "better" skill sets to use? Probably. But right now, it works well.

Aren't 2/3 of hte enmies in the Desolation immune to both Poison and Bleeding? Been as they're either made of stone or undead.

As a Thumper goes in PvE. How about using Strike As One? Its nice n spammable and gives a pretty decent +x damage that would be kept up for 2/3-3/4 of the time.

lennymon · Dec 01, 2006, 09:26 PM // 21:26

heh, I actually have just been going barrage or judges/barrage in desolation. Lazy I know, but heck its cheap and works.
burning arrow is great for either hordes of undead or anything else for that matter, but yeah for the stone/undead land id go read the wind, burning arrow, xfire(love this skill), savage shot AND/OR distracting shot (there's really no reason for a marks ranger to not have at least one interrupt), natural stride or dodge, troll ungent (I'd put the cap sig here for troll) and rez.
Only thing ever gave my ranger trouble in the desolation was the necro boss when I capped order of undeath, then I loaded one of my monky heroes as a smiter and well.... heh lets just say it went a little smoother.

Jeff Highwind · Dec 01, 2006, 10:13 PM // 22:13

I've been meaning to try Bunny Thumper for AB recently. My pet is unevolved though and I lack a hammer but I can afford the skillz after a few rounds of UW Trapping.

For AB though, does Thumper require a group of thumpers or can you fly solo with other guys (I got an alliance with a couple thumpers, hence why I ask.)

SnipiousMax · Dec 01, 2006, 10:19 PM // 22:19

^ A thumper fits in where a warrior normally would. Difference being that a Thumper is pretty front-loaded (very little defense) with stronger offensive pressure.

lennymon · Dec 01, 2006, 10:20 PM // 22:20

heh, I actually have just been going barrage or judges/barrage in desolation. Lazy I know, but heck its cheap and works.
burning arrow is great for either hordes of undead or anything else for that matter, but yeah for the stone/undead land id go read the wind, burning arrow, xfire(love this skill), savage shot AND/OR distracting shot (there's really no reason for a marks ranger to not have at least one interrupt), natural stride or dodge, troll ungent (I'd put the cap sig here for troll) and rez.
Only thing ever gave my ranger trouble in the desolation was the necro boss when I capped order of undeath, then I loaded one of my monky heroes as a smiter and well.... heh lets just say it went a little smoother.

For thumpers in AB, I really liked starting with the Lightning Hammer build on wiki and adjusting from there. It offers very strong offense as well as defense and gives you the idea.

FalconDance · Dec 01, 2006, 10:21 PM // 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Aren't 2/3 of hte enmies in the Desolation immune to both Poison and Bleeding? Been as they're either made of stone or undead.

Yes, but Burning Arrow and Crossfire take them down with little trouble. It's rather amusing to watch stone burn

.

XvArchonvX · Dec 02, 2006, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

As a Thumper goes in PvE. How about using Strike As One? Its nice n spammable and gives a pretty decent +x damage that would be kept up for 2/3-3/4 of the time.

Yea, I capped that and I'm sure it would work fine, but I still prefer the speed boost from RaO. Even though enemies don't kite like in PvP it still helps get you to your target faster so that you start dealing damage sooner. I'm not sure I would see it dealing more damage than RaO, but even if it did I just find RaO more fun.

Jeff Highwind · Dec 02, 2006, 08:04 AM // 08:04

I just capped RaO and it's fun as hell! I've been thinking though, if I can get a sup Beasty rune on me and put more points into expertise for a defensive stance, would it be possible to cover the loss of 75hp with the evasion provided by Whirling Defense? With both RaO and WD up it'd be alot harder to hit me physically than with just RaO and 560 HP.

Darkpower Alchemist · Dec 02, 2006, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

@ Darkpower:
I don't see anything wrong with running traps in a bow based build for PvE, but I don't see how you can pull them off without having some sort of evasive stance in there.

Well,actually,it's not tough when you have played a ranger for as long as I have now. 3 chapters of ranger play make you rather proficient,imho. What I do is flag my heroes at the edge of aggro range,very close to enemies. since I usually keep a ranger hero with me in my party,they will be able to trap as well. I lay dust trap first, so in case the monsters cross into the aggro bubble and charge me, the first thing that happens is that they are blinded. This makes the use of a defensive stance not as needed since I never start the aggro before the dust trap is laid down.

When the times when the dust trap is interupted,my ranger hero usually has laid dust trap on her side so all I need do is kite them into her trap,and the effect is essentially the same. From there, it becomes rather academic. if applying poison,then I'll barb the dust filled area, apply poison,then strike with Burning Arrow. Once that happens,I retarget, then strike the monk(If any,which in Elona, is very likely) poisoning him with Screaming and then interupt with savage. The monk is usually pretty dead from that point from a next shot from my ranger hero.If not, then he can get a burning arrow,too

.

Essentially, I don't use a stance due to the fact of how I play my trapper/archer build. When capping,I remove a trap,usually flame trap. If trapping with people,things may not go as well,since I'm not in control of the second person. In that situation,I might bring Whirling Defense, but mostly,I wouldn't. But, if I were to recommend a trapping/archer build to someone with less trapping experience,then I would recommend a stance to prevent most interupts. Maybe something like this;

[skill=card]Apply Poison[/skill][skill=card]Screaming Shot[/skill][skill=card]Savage Shot[/skill][skill=card]Burning Arrow[/skill][skill=card]Whirling defense[/skill][skill=card]Dust Trap[/skill][skill=card]Barbed Trap[/skill][skill=card]Resurrection Signet[/skill]

This works well in most PvE scenarios, and if you feel the need to change anything,it will more than likely be the elite, depending on what you prefer to use.

Also,in the desolation, you can poison,bleed,and set on fire the things that aren't dead(Like demons), which are found in some large mobs, but i would rather use Read The Wind to be on the safe side.

XvArchonvX · Dec 02, 2006, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

Well,actually,it's not tough when you have played a ranger for as long as I have now. 3 chapters of ranger play make you rather proficient,imho. What I do is flag my heroes at the edge of aggro range,very close to enemies. since I usually keep a ranger hero with me in my party,they will be able to trap as well. I lay dust trap first, so in case the monsters cross into the aggro bubble and charge me, the first thing that happens is that they are blinded. This makes the use of a defensive stance not as needed since I never start the aggro before the dust trap is laid down.

Just because you're not the first to aggro doesn't mean enemies won't attack you. I don't see this as a reliable strategy. Also, if you are spending that much time trapping, then you are better off going as a full out trapper. Imho, traps on a bow ranger build are best for support/snare or just to lay down before you aggro. If they are being used for primary offense, then switching to your bow instead of continuing to trap doesn't really give much advantage.

Sir Mad · Dec 02, 2006, 08:34 PM // 20:34

Actually I kinda agree with Darkpower here. I used a trapper without an evasive stance for the Deep in the early stage of Factions. The main reason was we needed someone with Maryr and I thought having it on a ranger would save the elite of one of the monk, and let them do a better job, while it was not that an inconvenient for me - which means I couldn't take either Oath Shot (to recharge traps and have WD up most of the time) nor Trapper's Focus. However, in order to spam traps without EW/QZ and Oath Shot, I needed Serpent's Quickness. So I decided to completely drop WD and take Throw Dirt. And surprisingly, it worked well.

The strategy was very simple: let the warriors take the aggro, step in the mellee, use Throw Dirt just in case, drop Dust Trap, and start spamming the other traps you carry. Sometimes a mage in the backline will start wanding you. When it happens, don't try to drop another trap, as it's useless. Instead, just step back and he will target someone else (well at least they did - I haven't tried since the AI change). This build was completely inefficient in the 1st room once you have nuked the first foe as the spirits of the rits seemed to be unable to target anyone than me. But past that, it worked very well (erm... ok, except in the room where you're teleported to the closest foe every few seconds, but still...). I'd say 3/4 traps were not interupted, which is pretty good IMO.

Now I must say if I had had any choice I definitely would have taken either Oath Shot + WD or Trapper's Focus. Yes, that's better. But even without, provided you have some experience with aggroes and such (making a foe switch to another target) and generally rangers do (and they'd better, since rangers are THE pullers of the team), it's still OK - although, I definitely wouldn't recommand such a build to a new ranger.

EDIT - Erm I was talking about trapping without an evasive stance - I agree concerning the use of a bow.

XvArchonvX · Dec 03, 2006, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Mad

...So I decided to completely drop WD and take Throw Dirt. And surprisingly, it worked well.

Yea, I can see running traps with no evasive stance, but still having throw dirt. The problem I saw with Darkpower's approach was that he had no way of preventing or reducing interupts until he actually dropped a Dust Trap.

Bloodied Blade · Dec 03, 2006, 04:26 AM // 04:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Yea, I can see running traps with no evasive stance, but still having throw dirt. The problem I saw with Darkpower's approach was that he had no way of preventing or reducing interupts until he actually dropped a Dust Trap.

It's not impossible to manage it...just rather annoying. If I run traps with a bow they're usually as a defensive measure (dust/barbed in 1 slot on my bar as more of a novelty backline item). I really wouldn't run traps as my main offense and then run a bow as my extra damage...it's just too much slower than simply shooting down the mob or laying 1 backline trap and engaging.

I could, however, understand laying a dust trap as a minor aid to keep an npc warrior off of you for a moment or two while you kited away from it.

Darkpower Alchemist · Dec 03, 2006, 06:11 AM // 06:11

It doesn't make much since to start quoting all the particular comment parts, so I'll address the whole of the previous comments.

First,as I stated previously, my build is useful to me because I am experienced with its use. It's not used as a primary trappers build,since 2 traps doesn't make a trappers build, but part of an overall supporters build. I may be in control of the team, but a ranger has to ALWAYS play his position. This goes back to what I have said in previous ranger threads.

"A ranger has to know his place, and, in such knowledge, play his position to the best of his ability, for the continued success of the entire team.!"

This being said, I never recommended the build that I use to any new rangers. I recommended an alternative IF a ranger wanted to use traps with his bow. I use traps for two reasons in general.

1) To impede and hamper my enemies.
2) I need a real excuse for Wilderness' use, since Troll Unguent alone seems to not be using it to its full potential.

Also, my build is primarily an archer's build, since my attributes are normally spread so;

Marksmanship 16(12+3+1) Wilderness Survival 10(9+1) Expertise 10(9+1)

This being the case,I always intend to use my bow as my primary weapon. Now, in the statement of Archon feeling that I should either go full trapper or full archer, that is an opinion based on your style of game play. You seem to think on a defensive level, using all traps and using defensive stances to prevent interuptions. However, take into account that very few monsters will make a ranger as the primary target of their attack. Not even people playing against a ranger target the ranger first, thus they are usually caught by ALL the traps laid by any ranger worth his salt.

Also, take timing and play style into consideration. A trapper using Trapper's Focus may not be as interuptable, but once he has laid his traps, what good is he for at least the next 30 seconds or so to his team?

Not much good really. Where as in my build, being a primary archer, and a trapper second, it is useful throughout the duration of the combat scenario. Traps laid, set off by encroaching enemies, the archer is then able to attack with his bow on an effective level. The traps are not meant to kill, but to impede and ensnare the masses that are usually descening upon the team.

Positioning and timing are more useful with my build, where using WD+ Oath Shot would make for a more aggresive ranger approach, as in jumping into the fray as the primary attacker and making the same ranger the primary target of aggro.

Is that the way that a ranger normally plays in a team situation?

As for being a novelty backline defense, that means like a smoke and mirror situation,correct? Something to throw off the enemy attack and cause confussion. This is the nature of ranger traps in the first place. Trappers are most deadly in a group of 4, as we all well know, and thus an individual trapper isn't doing anything more than hampering the enemy advance long enough for the rest of the team to help take them out. Novelty is an understatement for trapping in an archer/trapper style build,imo.

Traps on one ranger are not enough to kill anything that can be considered a real threat. However, in a build like what I said that I use, the build causes bleeding,crippling,poisoning,blindness, and burning damage.These, all coming into play at the moment an enemy crosses the dust trap.Also, Throwing dirt may be quick in practice, but takes as long as a trap to recharge,if not longer and once it wears off, never caused the enemies damage like a dust trap, but that is also a matter of preference, since both are quite effective in practical application.

It's usefulness and implementation are all a matter of perspective and playing style.

XvArchonvX · Dec 03, 2006, 06:39 AM // 06:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

However, take into account that very few monsters will make a ranger as the primary target of their attack. Not even people playing against a ranger target the ranger first, thus they are usually caught by ALL the traps laid by any ranger worth his salt.

I don't think we are playing the same game. The GW I know has enemies that often switch target and cause a widespread pressure from variety in damage targetting. The GW I play has enemies that run past tanks and start hitting people in the backlines. The AI may attack the ranger less, but all it takes is a couple hits from a wand to disable one of your skill slots for the next 20-30 seconds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

A trapper using Trapper's Focus may not be as interuptable, but once he has laid his traps, what good is he for at least the next 30 seconds or so to his team?

A trapper that has no speed buff for his traps (i.e. Trapper's Speed, SQ, EW/QZ) is not really good for his team no matter how you look at it. However, most competant trappers don't have to wait 30 seconds between traps since they bring one of such suggested skills.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

As for being a novelty backline defense, that means like a smoke and mirror situation,correct? Something to throw off the enemy attack and cause confussion.

I'm curious as to how you think you are confusing computer controlled AI. If you are refering to PvP, then I would argue that you choose another build for PvP, since there's nothing more fun than laughing as you piss off some trapper in RA with your wand/staff as a monk in between spells while he constantly tries and fails at dropping a trap.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

It's usefulness and implementation are all a matter of perspective and playing style.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and leave it at that.

Darkpower Alchemist · Dec 03, 2006, 07:33 AM // 07:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

I don't think we are playing the same game. The GW I know has enemies that often switch target and cause a widespread pressure from variety in damage targetting. The GW I play has enemies that run past tanks and start hitting people in the backlines. The AI may attack the ranger less, but all it takes is a couple hits from a wand to disable one of your skill slots for the next 20-30 seconds.
A trapper that has no speed buff for his traps (i.e. Trapper's Speed, SQ, EW/QZ) is not really good for his team no matter how you look at it. However, most competant trappers don't have to wait 30 seconds between traps since they bring one of such suggested skills.

So,it begins anew! The great debate. You aggressively protect your ideals, but the fact of the matter is that what you are refering to is merely your limit of experience(not that you are inexperienced in the least) on chosing your targets against build preferences. If you play defense from the moment you attack, then you will always be on the defensive. However,if you are passive in your aggression, you will find openings in the enemies attack pattern.

For instance,if your monk stays close to you while trapping, who will the enemies attack? I think we both know that answer. If the warriors rush the monk who is under your traps, then they spring the traps, essentially taking the "bait". this gives you the opportunity to now apply conditions on top of the trap issued conditions,making condition removal rather difficult,even for a computer controlled monk.

Also, the matter of switching targets during attack can go both ways. Since it is not always possible to find the caster in a large group. Also,if you have 2 rangers in a group this makes finding and taking down caster targets much easier, like I mentioned previously when refering to me usually travelling with my ranger hero.

If you scan the enemy group, and find the casters quickly, you can eliminate them before the blindness wears off of the warriors. The point you seem to forget is that in my build I am not a trapper in the generic sense. I lay traps.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

I'm curious as to how you think you are confusing computer controlled AI. If you are refering to PvP, then I would argue that you choose another build for PvP, since there's nothing more fun than laughing as you piss off some trapper in RA with your wand/staff as a monk in between spells while he constantly tries and fails at dropping a trap.

Get dust in your eye, and tell me how you respond

In RA or in PvE, who has the condition removal usually? And if they are dead from a hail of arrows, who then will be removing the blindness,crippling,poison,and bleeding?
Wanding me won't be any good with arrows in their chest and poison in their bellies

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and leave it at that.

Benifit of the doubt,eh? Very well,then. However,if you are truely curious, I am easy to find.

Jeff Highwind · Dec 03, 2006, 08:02 AM // 08:02

I've been using a slight modification to the popular RaO Thumper in AB to counter Luxon Touchers. This build is so Anti-Toucher it's scary

BM 8+1+mask
Expertise 10+1
Hammer 12

Hammer Bash
Crushing Blow
Wild Blow (Cancles WD on toucher) or Irresistable Blow (more damage and doesn't demand adrenaline)
Antidote Signet (f*** Blind)
Rampage as One
Whirling Defense
Comfort Animal
Charm Animal

If you are out to hunt Touchers, keep Wild Blow on. It's a Godsend for thumpers vs touchers. Just be sure to lead with Wild Blow to cancel WD before starting the RaO attack.

XvArchonvX · Dec 03, 2006, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

So,it begins anew! The great debate. You aggressively protect your ideals, but the fact of the matter is that what you are refering to is merely your limit of experience(not that you are inexperienced in the least) on chosing your targets against build preferences.

Umm, I think you are gettin a bit to excited over this. I'm not really aggressive in protecting my ideals, I just don't agree with you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

If you play defense from the moment you attack, then you will always be on the defensive.

Umm, no. The defensive stance/Throw Dirt is there to make sure the trap sticks. This has no effect on the remainder of the battle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

However,if you are passive in your aggression, you will find openings in the enemies attack pattern.

...or you will just be standing around and missing all the potential do deal damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

For instance,if your monk stays close to you while trapping, who will the enemies attack? I think we both know that answer. If the warriors rush the monk who is under your traps, then they spring the traps, essentially taking the "bait". this gives you the opportunity to now apply conditions on top of the trap issued conditions,making condition removal rather difficult,even for a computer controlled monk.

Enemies don't just attack the monk. Believe it or not, enemies do actually attack rangers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

Also, the matter of switching targets during attack can go both ways. Since it is not always possible to find the caster in a large group. Also,if you have 2 rangers in a group this makes finding and taking down caster targets much easier, like I mentioned previously when refering to me usually travelling with my ranger hero.

If you are running Apply, then you should be constantly switching targets until you have gotten the most poisoning out of your prep as possible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

If you scan the enemy group, and find the casters quickly, you can eliminate them before the blindness wears off of the warriors. The point you seem to forget is that in my build I am not a trapper in the generic sense. I lay traps.

The warriors won't be blind if you can't get a trap down without interupting. Even then, you only get 6 seconds of blind from Dust Trap, while you would get almost double that at 11 seconds with throw dirt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

Get dust in your eye, and tell me how you respond

In RA or in PvE, who has the condition removal usually? And if they are dead from a hail of arrows, who then will be removing the blindness,crippling,poison,and bleeding?
Wanding me won't be any good with arrows in their chest and poison in their bellies

As said, there won't be any blindness if there is no way to put your trap down safely. If blindness is incurred, then 6 seconds of blindness every 30 seconds isn't going to be much threat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

Benifit of the doubt,eh? Very well,then. However,if you are truely curious, I am easy to find.

What would I need to find you for?

Darkpower Alchemist · Dec 03, 2006, 06:40 PM // 18:40

In short,Archon,you are dead wrong!

You are assuming that I would always be stopped.You are assuming that I would never get the trap down. You are assuming that the enemy doesn't attack the monk, and you are assuming that you are right.

You assume too much.

Did you forget that the dust trap causes damage,earth damage if I am correct,and the monsters respond to it like an AoE damage effect, running from the trap, already blinded. 6 seconds is more than enough time to take down and interupt a caster,monk or otherwise, and retarget for the next closest soft target.

[skill=big]Throw Dirt[/skill]

Your Throw Dirt isn't doing anything but blinding,so the enemy will hug up on you and wait for the blindness to be removed or for it to wear off. This isn't blinding flash,my friend, you have roughly 30 seconds before you can blind a with this again. So if the monk removes the condition from the encroaching warrior/attacker then what do you do? WD? Lets's look at that next;

[skill=big]Whirling Defense[/skill]

Your stance of choice has a 75% chance to protect you from being interupted. Do you really think that will stop a good warrior?

[skill=big]Wild Blow[/skill]

Have you ever been hit by a supposedly blinded foe? I have, and so have many others, because being blinded means that their have a very slim chance of hitting with an attack, but not totally unable. If the blind doesn't stick and is removed by the monk, then a good attacker/warrior will have this now popular skill. Your stance is now off and recharging for 60 seconds. Now, that you have thrown your dirt and/or have used WD, what will you do?

[skill=big]Dust Trap[/skill]

While this is my weapon of choice from the very begining. This is my defense and extra damage on one skill slot. Sure, the blind can be removed,but the damage still occurs long enough for me to take advantage of the situation,and as the trap is sprung the blind can be reapplied as long as the trap is setting off. So the attacker will more than likely back off,giving me the next opportunity to place poison on my arrow. Screaming Shot+ Burning Arrow+ Savage Shot = 1 dead caster target or one very hampered attacker/warrior in melee range,either dead or nearly dead. Let's not even throw a second ranger in the mix yet, because that means a 2nd set of traps that this warrior/attacker will be kited into. That means more conditions,more poison, more degen...do you understand my meaning yet?

I doubt you will ever understand or agree with my way of playing, so let's just say that 1 million+ experience points later, and 3 chapters in, my way works for me, and your way works for you.