Curse

Silk Weaver · Nov 24, 2006, 05:16 PM // 17:16

That's purely your choice. I don't run distracting shot on mine, but really, that's not my point. Distracting shot is great for a cripshot or bow ranger, definetly, but when I'm a beastmaster, I think more like a thumper, if you get what I mean. It's not my job to press tab and find the monk who's using dev signet or heal signet, or a rez. Disrupting Lunge CAN be spammed, and WILL hit something, so that's why it's good. I don't prefer Brutal personally, and I love disrupting.

Still, that's personal preference. What I mean is that in terms of pressure, a beastmaster is not exactly weak.

On a side note, I sometimes run it with zealous daggers for the energy gain. Not much of an issue with armor and healing, as long as you watch the AoEs, and well, depends on the area. Pets are silly like that.

With the templates, it's a jiffy to switch for differnet areas anyway.

Evilsod · Nov 24, 2006, 10:06 PM // 22:06

I can understand why you want to run Disrupting Lunge over Distracting Shot... but you don't have to be tabbing round to interrupt things. If your aiming at an enemy monk you don't need to tab to find somet to interrupt, you can just wait till its needed.

What i don't get however. Why in gods name would you want to be stood next to your pet? Between you and a pet any enemy will attack you. Why? The pet has 80AL and if your using Enranged Lunge, you should be running Call of Haste + Protection too. All you do by standing next to enemies is give the monk more work. Because not only can you not heal your pet and yourself (without Heal as one) your also in the thick of it. Enemy spikes can be pretty well coordinated.

The advantage of not been in a stupid position is much better than having a 1.3s attack speed zealous weapon.

Silk Weaver · Nov 25, 2006, 03:27 AM // 03:27

I kinda trust my monks, Tahl and Dunkuro, that is, and -personally- have not had much problems. I could always switch it out. I do have 80 armor, becuase I was stupid and bought a beastmaster's set, so I'm essentially the same amount of headache to the monks as my pet as to how much damage I take.

I play with the build in HA, RA, and AB, etc, and I'm not exactly a priority target. I don't KD, I deal 0-3 damage, I don't really do any conditions. It's obvious I'm the beastmaster, but the good thing is that even if I kite, use rez signet, or /dance, I can still use pet attacks, so I can essentailly run around silly and I'm still providing massive output. It's just that by attacking with zealous mods, and being careful (you do have 80 armor and decent hp anyway), you'll gain a lot of energy, and not really risk yourself much. At lesat you're less of a burden than a sin, not to mention you have no worries about pulling back whenever.

Is it a "stupid position"? Surely there are other melee in the area? In PvE, monsters are stupid, and I can easily manupilate their aggro so I'm pricking away and not getting hurt. In PvP, they are more concerned with over extened frenzy wars, necro, eles, monks, mesmers, ritualists, and at least a cripshot who poses some sort of decicisive danger, than me, who really just step step step. Bah, Pred Bond (I prefer it over protection, since pets have no DP in PvE, and don't die as often with pred pounce and a bit of comforting) is used to make enraged lunge work for me, but it's usually far more than enough to compensate any damage I take from AoE or from the stray warrior attacking me. They never really chase me though, since I have decent armor, healthgain, and because the pet's dealing 100 or so damage while he's chasing me.

Maybe it's not true but -I- have no issue with not attracting attention despite being in melee, and the fact that I'm not a squishee adds to it. Proper manuevering can counteract the danger both PvE and PvP, that is to say, don't just use space bar and number 1-7. That's my experience, and I think you might agree if you try, but you probably won't, and I guess that's okay. And for the record, it's not 1.3, more like 1.2 from double strike. Otherwise I'd use a shield too-- thing is, I rarely get hit.

Hm, you can do the same by using a zealous spear I suppose...

Sha Noran · Nov 25, 2006, 11:20 AM // 11:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

Hm, you can do the same by using a zealous spear I suppose...

Or.. a Zealous Shortbow? >.>

As far as your comments on BM dealing more damage, assuming you're running a single target Bow build and comparing it to an Enraged BM build, yea, you'll deal more damage... if your pet is even attacking what it's supposed to, and assuming it's alive since it doesn't exactly kite like a pro. Basically running BM makes you a Warrior with no Deep Wound potential, which is viable and deals extreme damage(i.e. Enraged), but not... the best.

You allow as how you can deal more damage with bows by using certain skills and buffs. So... use them? And.. deal more damage? It's not exactly black and white, and trust me, I know my facts.

fenix · Nov 25, 2006, 12:23 PM // 12:23

wow, reading this thread makes my brain hurt. Do any of you actually play Guild Wars? Otyugh's Cry has a use? Revive Animal is worth a slot? Half the things that are posted are just stupidity. Some of the points are valid though, if you are talking about PvP. Other's just don't apply to PvE, as there is no point bringing skills if you can do better with different ones...

One thing I think is funny, is that this guide is aimed for new/er players, yet all the posters who post "omfg crap thread you're a noob Sha" aren't new at all. This thread is good for PEOPLE WHO HAVE JUST STARTED AND NEED TIPS. My god, stop being retarded.

Sir Mad · Nov 25, 2006, 01:00 PM // 13:00

^ I guess this post belongs to the 50% of stupidity of this thread according to you. Yes, I do play the game - hence my comments. Thanks.

EDIT - And yes, experienced players criticize the guide, despite the fact that it's aimed to new rangers: were you expecting novice rangers to do that? And you contradict yourself: you blame us not to play the game, and then to be too experienced.

Concerning Revive, I wouldn't replace Comfort by this, indeed. But I may replace 5 Comforts by it, if I know who I'm playing with.

XvArchonvX · Nov 25, 2006, 03:48 PM // 15:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by talon

wow, reading this thread makes my brain hurt. Do any of you actually play Guild Wars? Otyugh's Cry has a use? Revive Animal is worth a slot? Half the things that are posted are just stupidity. Some of the points are valid though, if you are talking about PvP. Other's just don't apply to PvE, as there is no point bringing skills if you can do better with different ones...

One thing I think is funny, is that this guide is aimed for new/er players, yet all the posters who post "omfg crap thread you're a noob Sha" aren't new at all. This thread is good for PEOPLE WHO HAVE JUST STARTED AND NEED TIPS. My god, stop being retarded.

Yea, and experienced players were never noobs right? If the people that didn't go through the process of being new to the game can't give advice on how to better guide those who are, who should? And yes, revive can be worth a slot, depending on the situation (more than one ranger in a group lvling a pet? Why have 2+ comforts when you can have one revive?). Otygh's Cry was pointed out because Sha missed the point of the skill entirely. It is a niche BM skill, but is a good skill for training a dire pet. I would refer you to Jenosavel and Epinephrin's Pet Guide if you don't see it's usefulness:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...ad.php?t=89491

Sha Noran · Nov 25, 2006, 04:47 PM // 16:47

There is never a time, ever, that I would take O's Cry over a better skill. Ever. Never. Sorry.

XvArchonvX · Nov 26, 2006, 12:14 AM // 00:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

There is never a time, ever, that I would take O's Cry over a better skill. Ever. Never. Sorry.

Good for you, but I hold Jenosavel and Epinephrine's opinion in a higher regard than yours. If you can learn how to make a guide that is as informative, fact based and unbiased as theirs, I'll change my mind, but not until then. I think this whole debate is getting a bit skewed, so I'll lay this out like this:

Should you reccomend Otyugh's Cry in your guide?
No. It is a niche BM skill that finds use to rangers who specifically want to train a low level pet to dire. No one ever said that it was a good idea for a new ranger to use this.

Is Otyugh's Cry completely useless?
For the purposes of this guide, it doesn't matter.

Why was this skill even mentioned in this debate in the first place?
Because it Sha's remark on the skill showed that he didn't even understand what it was intended for.

Sha Noran · Nov 26, 2006, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Their guide is less biased because there's very little to be biased about, and most of their information is just undisputable statistics. In this guide, some skills suck while others do not. I lay it out in a simple format that has helped hundreds of people. Stop q.q'ing because I'm telling people that Incindiary Arrows blows while Punishing Shot rules. Or that O's cry is garbage. There will never be a group in the game, ever, that can bring that skill and not have something better in the spot. There is no niche for suck.

If you're tired of the thread Archon, then stop posting in it. You just look completely confused half the time you post anyway, it's not exactly making you the star of anyone's friend's list.

anshin · Nov 26, 2006, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Sha...

thanks for this guide....i am also a ranger addicted....

although i do have to say... relax people...

anyways...can you comment on this build of mine please

quick shot {E}
distracting shot
screaming shot
apply poison
whirling defense
troll unguent
capture signet
sunspear rez signet

marks 16
wild 8/9 (can't remember right now O.o)
expertise 13

my weapon:

Zealous Amber Longbow of Fortitude
dmg: 15-28(req 10/9 can't remember right now O.o)
15%
-5 energy
-1 energy regen
+1 energy per hit
+30 hp

screaming shot makes bleeding for 21 seconds....apply poison makes poison for 9 seconds....

as someone said in the first posts.... a zealous string is the best thing when you have 13 in expertise...

i use capture signet because i am playing the new terrains in Nightfall and i don't know when i can find monk bosses or ranger bosses >.<

feedback on my build please...thanks in advance...

ume kurosaki · Nov 26, 2006, 03:52 AM // 03:52

your bias aside; good guide.

The best way for new players to learn is through experience, naturally. But yeah, this guide provides a good lowdown on the ranger skills, that's for sure.

i enjoyed reading the constructive criticism (and flames...*coughs*). But anyways. I run with several different builds. Right now, I'm playing with barrage + GftE with ranger hero henchies, and it's pretty fun to play with. Plus you throw in stand your ground and never surrender, it gets even better.

(p.s. props to Archon for being civilized)

XvArchonvX · Nov 26, 2006, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Their guide is less biased because there's very little to be biased about, and most of their information is just undisputable statistics. In this guide, some skills suck while others do not. I lay it out in a simple format that has helped hundreds of people. Stop q.q'ing because I'm telling people that Incindiary Arrows blows while Punishing Shot rules. Or that O's cry is garbage. There will never be a group in the game, ever, that can bring that skill and not have something better in the spot. There is no niche for suck.

If you're tired of the thread Archon, then stop posting in it. You just look completely confused half the time you post anyway, it's not exactly making you the star of anyone's friend's list.

The point you are missing is that there is a difference between:
"Incendiary arrows sucks, never use it."
and
"Incendiary arrows is not a very effective elite because it has a very short duration time compared to it's recharge. The combo of Practiced Stance and Choking Gas is generally prefered because it can provide constant AoE interupts without any down time"

The difference between the two statements is that one is informative and gives a reason for judgement while the other comes across to many people as being arrogant and gives no insight into reasoning.

anshin · Nov 26, 2006, 03:15 PM // 15:15

can someone please comment about my build???

the topic is not about how Sha Noran wrote the stuff!!! is just about the stuff!!!!

please!!

Program Ftw · Nov 26, 2006, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by anshin

can someone please comment about my build???

the topic is not about how Sha Noran wrote the stuff!!! is just about the stuff!!!!

please!!

Fairly Bad.

Thanks,
Program~

Sir Mad · Nov 26, 2006, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by anshin

can someone please comment about my build???

I'm confused with your build, as I don't know how you use it. If it's a condition spreading build (swithing targets to try to keep all the foes poisoned, using the refire rate of quickshot to speed it up), I'd say the idea is good on the paper but it's probably less effective in reality (I haven't tested it so tell me if I'm wrong): with Quickly you can roughly shout 1 arrow per second, so in this case that would be poisoning one foe per second. But this is the theory. In reality, scrolling between targets takes time, and it's going to slow it down. In this case, a warrior IAS may help and you can save your elite for something else.

Now if you focus on only one foe with this build, I'd advice you to bring Read the Wind instead of Apply Poison, as it adds 10 damage per second with Quickshot and increase the speed of your arrows. Savage Shot instead of Distracting Shot may be interesting then to keep a high DPS while interupting. You may want to check Needling Shot too.

Concerning the attribute points, if you choose the 2nd option, then 16 in marksmanship and 13 in expertise is what you need. For the 1st option, you can maybe lower marksmanship a bit to boost WS and increase the poison duration. But I generally don't recommand rangers to have 2 or more sup runes as your att points repartition suggests, unless the build definitely requires it.

You may also want to check the different Quickshot builds posted in this topic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

The point you are missing is that there is a difference between:
"Incendiary arrows sucks, never use it."
and
"Incendiary arrows is not a very effective elite because it has a very short duration time compared to it's recharge. The combo of Practiced Stance and Choking Gas is generally prefered because it can provide constant AoE interupts without any down time"

The difference between the two statements is that one is informative and gives a reason for judgement while the other comes across to many people as being arrogant and gives no insight into reasoning.

Quoted for truth. I may also add that in my opinion, the best guide wouldn't be a list of builds a new player would copy (and I'm not saying this is the case of your guide) but a tool to help him make his own builds, depending on the environement, and what's required in the team.

anshin · Nov 26, 2006, 04:20 PM // 16:20

well

actually i only concentrate on one target at a time because with the henchies i kill one guy in less than 10sec...

guess the degeneration is not that usefull...

thanks....it helped

im noob btw...

Sha Noran · Nov 26, 2006, 05:03 PM // 17:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

The point you are missing is that there is a difference between:
"Incendiary arrows sucks, never use it."
and
"Incendiary arrows is not a very effective elite because it has a very short duration time compared to it's recharge. The combo of Practiced Stance and Choking Gas is generally prefered because it can provide constant AoE interupts without any down time"

The difference between the two statements is that one is informative and gives a reason for judgement while the other comes across to many people as being arrogant and gives no insight into reasoning.

You know man, you could've said that probably 16 pages ago and we could've avoided alot of grief. A ton of the arguments I've been having with you (all) is that your attitude has been, "Who the f*ck is Sha Noran to come in here and tell people (x) skill(s) suck!?!?! These skills rule lol!!" I can go back and make it more clear why they suck if that's the biggest problem with it all.

EDIT: I edited quite a bit, and then Guru is messing with me and showing the old version still. >.> ... saved it to Word either way, so I'll update it again later if it really isn't fixed.

Silk Weaver · Nov 26, 2006, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Well, yes, essentially that's what I (and others I think) mean by saying that you come off as arrogant and biased.

Personally, I've never used the cry or revive seriously either. But to completely ignore the positive points of a skill, and they do exist, as mentioned about the AoE +Armor, is to make this guide incomplete and misleading. I think it important to have a balanced view, especially when writing something that will likely influence the thoughts of newcomers. It is important to open the readers' minds to new possibilities, and to understand things on different levels. The cry's example was mainly to show that skills do more than they say.

Hypochondria was a more effective example. The intended use was not to trigger fragility, just as the Cry wasn't meant for armor, but people exploited the Frag bug anyway.

If you're intending to change it -so it's more neutral-, then you'd be in the right direction and I'd be fine with it. I'm not here to simply be antagonistic.

XvArchonvX · Nov 26, 2006, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by anshin

well

actually i only concentrate on one target at a time because with the henchies i kill one guy in less than 10sec...

guess the degeneration is not that usefull...

thanks....it helped

im noob btw...

If your objective is to take out single targets as fast as possible, then I would suggest you choose another prep besides Apply Poison. Apply is a great skill, but is an energy heavy choice if you are only targetting one enemy. Poison Arrow {E} isn't a bad idea, but you may want to choose Burning Arrow since it does more direct damage and is an easy skill to cap in NF as opposed to Poison Arrow that is deep in Prophecies. I would agree with Sir Mad's suggestion to choose a warrior type IAS in your build as opposed to Quick Shot. Flurry may be a good option if you go with a prep such as Kindle Arrows or Read the Wind. Flurry will reduce the base damage of your attacks, but won't reduce any bonus damage you do with your attack skills and your preps. Burning Arrow with Screaming Shot will also result in a 10 health degen on your target, which is the maximum health degen one may experience. (you can inflict more than 10 degen, but it will only counter any additional health regen an enemy may have). If you were to make these adjustments, your build may be as follows:

Burning Arrow {E}
Distracting Shot
Screaming Arrow
Kindle Arrows or Read the Wind
Whirling Defenses
Flurry
Capture Signet or Troll Unguent
Rez

If you run Read the Wind, I would suggest you use a Flatbow if you can to maximize your refire rate (since all bows under Read the Wind have minimum arc), but your longbow should be fine either way. You could likely lower your expertise to 12 if you find that you are stable with energy since 12 is the cutoff for 10 energy skills (http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Expertise) and invest more in wilderness survival for Kindle Arrows if you choose as well.

Just remember to take all suggestions as a grain of salt and find what you are comfortable with. After all, it doesn't matter how effective your build is if you aren't enjoying the game.