Jul 06, 2006, 10:57 PM // 22:57
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#181
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Perfectly Elocuted
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xnightmythx
Anyways, I don’t want to stop the flow of your posts. I also want you to know Snipious I value your discussions and you opinions very much. In no way am I starting an argument with you or anyone else. I just think that to help new players, we have to see it more from their perspective.
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The feeling is mutual of course.
^ The reason that many of these posts are nit picky, or polar opposites of what Sha's posted, is because to many (myself included) the guide made some very strong statements that many felt weren't justified. For example the strong insistance and resulting arguements in favor of Oath Shot trapping is a direct result of this comment here:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sha Nora
Oath Shot: Possibly the worst Ranger PvE skill in the game, definitely the worst Ranger PvE Elite.
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It's fine that he personally doesn't like it. If it doesn't work for him that is fine. But to make such a strong statement about it... is only going to draw flak. It's leaps in the right direction the way he re-worded it.
To label Apply Poison as inferior was another strong statement that he should have realized was going to draw an arguement. Rather than label anyone using it as ignorant, he should have listed pros and cons to both skills, and left it to the reader to make a judgement. Arguement aside, I think most people were arguing more with his tone than his philosophy.
Now, I've rambled on, and I'm not answering your last post. I do understand your point. We are indeed getting away from the original intention of the OP, and it would be much better if we could present our arguements subjunctively (I think that the recent pages are good examples). But you have to realize that a strong opinion in one direction is going to be a magnet for a strong opinion in the other direction. My posts were hardly subjunctive, but I was reacting to comments like "Oath shot is shit" and "You are wrong." But in the intrest of improved community participation, I'll keep a reign on my bias.
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Jul 06, 2006, 11:05 PM // 23:05
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#182
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Moe's Pub
Guild: Pigs Can Fly [Pigs]
Profession: R/
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Charm but no comfort? O.o
Also, having barrage and a preparation is maybe not the best idea in my mind... Same goes for power shot as barrage is spammable. If you want to degen, why dont you take Posion Arrow, and replace Apply by Ignite or Kindle for example?
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Jul 06, 2006, 11:26 PM // 23:26
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#183
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Perfectly Elocuted
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Sorry for double, but Epine was posting while I was.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epinephrine
I can see the logic of attribute based discussion, but for example, discussing all the preparations under the subject "Preparations" might allow for easier comparisons, as discussing "Speed buffs" in a group would allow comparing and contrasting Dodge, Escape (actually a pretty good skill, since it's a speed buff and defense), Storm Chaser and Run as One.
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I agree. Since a ranger will be filling any number of roles, I think that rather limiting your discussion by attribute (or maybe in addition to discussion by attribute) should should add a "Comparasion by Function" type of section.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epinephrine
Awfully strong statement. Especially given that many builds (Judge's Insight, Conjure, Victory is Mine trapper and so on) use one skill from another skill line. Perhaps temper it - as in "IF you are tempted to invest points in an attribute for a single skill, ask yourself if it is essential? Can I get this effect another way, using the attributes I'm already investing in?" or something. I don't like "never".
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I also though this was a little strong... you might list 'exceptions to what is generally a good idea.'
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epinephrine
I guess I just mean that there are times to do it - but I wouldn't pack two damage preps - one is generally to deal with something (a utility skill) and the other is a damage prep. Again, I just find "Never" to be a bit too strong - there are times to do it, just think before packing a skill that will sit on your bar.
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This is another good mention. RtW and Kindle both on your skill bar is not needed of course, but again, perhaps a few exceptions to the rule.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epinephrine
<snip> ... EoE.... <snip>
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Just to get a taste of what this skill can do, take it to the Vizunauh Square mission, and watch the baddies melt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epine
<snip> ...Tiger's Fury... <snip>
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I think Tiger's Fury Barraging should be mentioned. Using a Horn Bow and Tiger's Fury, the damage output is impressive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epinephrine
TOTALLY agree. Barrage/pet isn't the only build out there folks.
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But it's effectiveness can't be completely downtrod because of its lack of flare or originality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epinephrine
You know I disagree strongly with this. Zealous is one of the best strings, especially in a build that fires fast. More energy = more skill use. If you don't need the extra energy, lower your expertise, put the points into other attributes for more damage. Since a ranger is essentially turning energy into damage, more energy is good.
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I can see where he's coming from though Epine. It's extremely effective and hardly the worst, and In many situations it easily keeps pace with other mods. But I think his point is that a ranger shouldn't neccesarily run into energy problems, and he'd be better off getting more benefit from another mod. I'd say I'd disagree with this, but I can understand it certainly. I think a change in phrasing would make it seem less stubborn.
Really, I agree with alot of what Sha's wrote. I really like how he's outlined a number of useful builds, that are great platforms for anyone intrested in playing a ranger. It's great how they're not just gimmicky but rather are extremely functional, and that is something that is found lacking often... I think where we've butt heads, and where many of my comments like 'worthless' and 'waste' come from answering a post that said much the same. It's fine that we disagree (and in all honesty will continue to do so about specifics) but I think your guide should (and definately is now) show more intrest in presenting options, rather than close doors on skills or practices that are entirely functional and effective.
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Jul 06, 2006, 11:37 PM // 23:37
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#184
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Master of Beasts
Join Date: Jul 2005
Guild: Servants of Fortuna [SoF]
Profession: R/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Jameson
A build I typically use for my ranger when I'm doing an all-around group-oriented technique is:
Power Shot
Barrage {Elite}
Distracting Shot
Apply Poison
Conjure Phantasm
Troll Ungent
Ressurection Signet
Charm Animal
It is made specifically for a R/Me and is based on combining Barrage with massive health degeneration and using a pet to keep most enemies off of you while you cast spells and shoot the enemies to death. I know it doesn't come anywhere close to the best ranger build, but it's working very well for me in PvE group situations.
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... *cries*
1. Barrage is a spammable bow attack. Do not take another bow attack in combination with it (unless it's to be used for utility purposes), especially such a horrible bow attack as Power Shot.
2. You've split yourself up into 5 attribute lines. Welcome to fail.
3. Since we're discussing PvE, you absolutely need a pet res to consider bringing your furry friend along.
4. Barrage eats Apply Poison for breakfast. Don't take them at the same time or it just might eat you too.
This may or may not have been your first build, but bluntly put, it's aweful. Really think about how things go together, because PvE is easy. Anyone can beat it. Therefore, whether or not you seem to be getting along fine in PvE is relatively meaningless when it comes down to how good your build is. Start trying to streamline things. What is necessary and what isn't? Where are you spending points for a single skill and is that skill really giving you an output that's worth it? Do some damage calculations to see how your various sources of damage compare to one another so that you can judge which ones are poor and which ones you should keep.
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Jul 07, 2006, 01:22 AM // 01:22
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#185
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: http://tinyurl.com/2jlusq
Guild: Idiot Savants [iQ]
Profession: R/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Jameson
A build I typically use for my ranger when I'm doing an all-around group-oriented technique is:
Power Shot
Barrage {Elite}
Distracting Shot
Apply Poison
Conjure Phantasm
Troll Ungent
Ressurection Signet
Charm Animal
It is made specifically for a R/Me and is based on combining Barrage with massive health degeneration and using a pet to keep most enemies off of you while you cast spells and shoot the enemies to death. I know it doesn't come anywhere close to the best ranger build, but it's working very well for me in PvE group situations.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenosavel
... *cries*
1. Barrage is a spammable bow attack. Do not take another bow attack in combination with it (unless it's to be used for utility purposes), especially such a horrible bow attack as Power Shot.
2. You've split yourself up into 5 attribute lines. Welcome to fail.
3. Since we're discussing PvE, you absolutely need a pet res to consider bringing your furry friend along.
4. Barrage eats Apply Poison for breakfast. Don't take them at the same time or it just might eat you too.
This may or may not have been your first build, but bluntly put, it's aweful. Really think about how things go together, because PvE is easy. Anyone can beat it. Therefore, whether or not you seem to be getting along fine in PvE is relatively meaningless when it comes down to how good your build is. Start trying to streamline things. What is necessary and what isn't? Where are you spending points for a single skill and is that skill really giving you an output that's worth it? Do some damage calculations to see how your various sources of damage compare to one another so that you can judge which ones are poor and which ones you should keep.
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Uh, yep, Jeno summed it up quite well.
SnipiousMax: Thank you for your now very much more constructive comments. The only thing I would say is that your quote of me regarding Oath Shot is now a mis-quote, as I have edited that portion of the guide. Check it out and see if it's better now. :-)
Epinephrine: I appreciate your list of things that might be changed for the better. Let me see here...
At the end of my comments regarding Storm Chaser, I will list other possibilities, i.e. Run As One/Dodge/Zojun's Haste/etc. I list Storm Chaser in my builds generally because they do spec into Wilderness Survival.
I think I'm going to dump Called Shot. I was sort of nub when I thought that was cool. >.>
Hmm, I think you misunderstand the purpose of the "NEVER" section. There may be extremely situational uses for having two preps (for example) but for someone relatively new to Ranger, I would rather make it very clear that its just a bad idea in general. I'll add footnotes regarding the potential of rare instances of value coming from spreading points into an attribute for one skill/having two preps, but again I would say that it's a bad idea 99% of the time.
As far as Otyugh's Cry, it could potentially be a "Watch Yourself!" for pets if you're group has multiple competant Beast Masters... but if you're group has multiple competant Beast Masters, they probably already know that. Generally it's horrible. :-P
If you are very careful about spec'ing into the appropriate attributes for Tiger's Fury it can potentially be useful, but I've still never liked it. Running it with a normal build to just fire faster is silly... which is what 99% of Rangers try to do, not a very specific Barrage/Tiger's combo. I suppose I'll ease up the hate a bit, but it still is a bad idea for average Joe Ranger.
It is possible to run a R/Rt spirit spammer with Oath Shot and reduced cost of spirits through Expertise... but you can't Oath Shot enough to keep up your spirits as consistantly as you would have to for it to be really a big help. I have tried it, but I found it to be ineffective.
As far as Practiced Stance/Choking Gas... there's another use for Practiced Stance that's really pretty absurd, and wouldn't work in a normal group. You would need two pretty experianced Rangers, if that's a hint. ;-)
Amber/Jade/Bramble/etc. bows generally say their bow type in their name, which is why I felt it unnecessary to list each. (I.E. Bramble Longbow, Bramble Shortbow, Bramble Recurve Bow, etc.)
---------------------------------------
That pretty much covers what you said, not respoding to the things you either agreed with or just had a different opinion on. I'll edit the guide here in a minute, so check back and see if the edits make it better or what.
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Jul 07, 2006, 02:03 AM // 02:03
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#186
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Draconic Rage Incarnate
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Iowa
Guild: Alphahive
Profession: R/A
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sha Noran
As far as Practiced Stance/Choking Gas... there's another use for Practiced Stance that's really pretty absurd, and wouldn't work in a normal group. You would need two pretty experianced Rangers, if that's a hint. ;-)
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Well, as a R/Me using Arcane Mimicry, there is:
Practiced Stance + Incendiary Arrows
Practiced Stance + Melandru's Arrows
Practiced Stance + Glass Arrows
Practiced Stance + Marksman's Wager
Practiced Stance + Trapper's Focus
Now, a lot of those would just be like "WTF?", but a few I can see would be quite devastating - Incendiary Arrows in particular. I've gone out with all ranger/mesmer groups, all using a different elite. It was an absolute blast... of course, I think I had the better end of the bargain as I was the one carrying Oath Shot , but anyway, once you get the hang of who has what elite, it is awesome. Oh, I need defense, BAM there's Escape on my bar. Wow, nobody's paying attention to little old me, BAM Spike Trap is on my bar. Poison Arrow, Crip Shot, whatever you need at the time. If you aren't the ranger with Oath Shot, bring SQ to reduce the recharge on Arcane Mimicry.
Good times - as a matter of fact, I'd be interested in doing it again sometime, if anyone wants to go out and have some fun with it.
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Jul 07, 2006, 02:09 AM // 02:09
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#187
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: http://tinyurl.com/2jlusq
Guild: Idiot Savants [iQ]
Profession: R/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lasher Dragon
Well, as a R/Me using Arcane Mimicry, there is:
Practiced Stance + Incendiary Arrows
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/yes
/cheer
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Jul 07, 2006, 02:23 AM // 02:23
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#188
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Perfectly Elocuted
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sha Noran
The only thing I would say is that your quote of me regarding Oath Shot is now a mis-quote, as I have edited that portion of the guide. Check it out and see if it's better now. :-)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnipiousMax
It's leaps in the right direction the way he re-worded it.
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Yea I read the rewrite and it is much better. It's not nearly so harsh.
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Jul 07, 2006, 05:37 AM // 05:37
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#189
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Nov 2005
Profession: R/
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I thought since this thread had the attention of Jenosavel, I would abuse this to ask her a question. Since others might be interested in, or have input on this I thought this would be better here than in the form of a PM.
I know that using a hornbow with Tigers Fury and Barrage has a greater damage output than Barrage with a Flatbow (even if Tigers Fury is used in conjunction), but the need to spam Tiger's Fury so much seems to guzzle energy so much I have yet to find a decent use of this combination.
Tonight when I was playing I was debating on whether to put a new vamp string I got for one of my rangers on a flatbow or hornbow I had. I had tried Tigers Fury with barrage briefly before, but not much. After experimenting around with it a bit more tonight, I just couldn't seem to find a way to maintain a decent amount of energy. I decided to keep 9 att in expertise since the next increase that would do any reduction would be 12 and only reduce TF by 1 point. Since I had to have attributes in Beast Mastery and Marksmanship also, I didn't have much option in splitting up the attributes any more since it would result in downtime with TF or reduced damage with Barrage.
While I suppose it is possible to use a zealous string, the extra energy would rely on barrage hitting multiple targets everytime and the overall damage output would be reduced by the lack of a vamp string.
Basically I ended up putting the vamp string on the flatbow and giving up on the TF Hornbow build since I couldn't maintain enough energy to use TF more than about 3 times before running so dry I had to space out my barrages since I kept hitting 0 energy. What I was wondering is whether there is some factor I'm not seeing that can allow this build to last through a full battle or if it is basically limited to very short durations.
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Jul 07, 2006, 01:05 PM // 13:05
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#190
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Master of Beasts
Join Date: Jul 2005
Guild: Servants of Fortuna [SoF]
Profession: R/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XvArchonvX
I thought since this thread had the attention of Jenosavel, I would abuse this to ask her a question. Since others might be interested in, or have input on this I thought this would be better here than in the form of a PM.
I know that using a hornbow with Tigers Fury and Barrage has a greater damage output than Barrage with a Flatbow (even if Tigers Fury is used in conjunction), but the need to spam Tiger's Fury so much seems to guzzle energy so much I have yet to find a decent use of this combination.
Tonight when I was playing I was debating on whether to put a new vamp string I got for one of my rangers on a flatbow or hornbow I had. I had tried Tigers Fury with barrage briefly before, but not much. After experimenting around with it a bit more tonight, I just couldn't seem to find a way to maintain a decent amount of energy. I decided to keep 9 att in expertise since the next increase that would do any reduction would be 12 and only reduce TF by 1 point. Since I had to have attributes in Beast Mastery and Marksmanship also, I didn't have much option in splitting up the attributes any more since it would result in downtime with TF or reduced damage with Barrage.
While I suppose it is possible to use a zealous string, the extra energy would rely on barrage hitting multiple targets everytime and the overall damage output would be reduced by the lack of a vamp string.
Basically I ended up putting the vamp string on the flatbow and giving up on the TF Hornbow build since I couldn't maintain enough energy to use TF more than about 3 times before running so dry I had to space out my barrages since I kept hitting 0 energy. What I was wondering is whether there is some factor I'm not seeing that can allow this build to last through a full battle or if it is basically limited to very short durations.
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I've had quite the same problem, myself. Tiger's Fury and Barrage together demand quite a lot of energy, and while I still play around with it from time to time, I'm not sure I'll find a good way to use it any more. It's the reason why every time I mention Tiger's Fury + Barrage + Hornbow I phrase it "if you happen to be using Tiger's Fury and Barrage together, then grab yourself a Hornbow" rather than something suggesting that set-up over others. I'm beginning to notice lately just how energy consuming Tiger's Fury is when not combined with Ferocious Strike. My Enraged Lunge builds suffer from lack of energy every time I try to introduce Tiger's Fury, and that's a point I've been working on for a while now.
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Jul 07, 2006, 04:38 PM // 16:38
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#191
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Moe's Pub
Guild: Pigs Can Fly [Pigs]
Profession: R/
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Same comment for Judge's insight I'd say. Even with 9 smiting prayers (which is a damn lot for one skill - well take smite hex if you do so, but still...) you gotta recast the enchantment every 15 secs: 10 energy points, and there is of course no expertise reduction here. With 3 smiting prayers, that's every 10 secs. That's why I think the barrage /JI build id quite hard to use. I'd still go with JI against skelletons, but I wouldn't use it against other foes. You can keep it active all the time while spamming barrager, but that's all. You're very likely if you do so not to have enough energy for a savage shot for example when you need it, or a stance.
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Jul 07, 2006, 06:27 PM // 18:27
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#192
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Perfectly Elocuted
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jenosavel
My Enraged Lunge builds suffer from lack of energy every time I try to introduce Tiger's Fury, and that's a point I've been working on for a while now.
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Yea, I've noticed that too. I've gone back to not using Tiger's Fury with Enaged.
But I've really not had too many energy problems with Tiger's Fury/Barrage. I'll post my specs when I get home...
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Jul 07, 2006, 11:03 PM // 23:03
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#193
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: http://tinyurl.com/2jlusq
Guild: Idiot Savants [iQ]
Profession: R/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Mad
Same comment for Judge's insight I'd say. Even with 9 smiting prayers (which is a damn lot for one skill - well take smite hex if you do so, but still...) you gotta recast the enchantment every 15 secs: 10 energy points, and there is of course no expertise reduction here. With 3 smiting prayers, that's every 10 secs. That's why I think the barrage /JI build id quite hard to use. I'd still go with JI against skelletons, but I wouldn't use it against other foes. You can keep it active all the time while spamming barrager, but that's all. You're very likely if you do so not to have enough energy for a savage shot for example when you need it, or a stance.
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+Essence Bond
In most of the places where this build is great, there's a Tank with all the agro (ideally). Toss Essence Bond on him and the only time your energy will even dent is when you reapply JI.
... and why are you guys using Tiger's Fury with Enraged? You're spreading yourself out too much I think.
[sarcasm]give ur tiger zealous claws!!!1[/sarcasm]
:-P
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Jul 08, 2006, 01:25 AM // 01:25
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#194
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Perfectly Elocuted
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sha Noran... and why are you guys using Tiger's Fury with Enraged? You're spreading yourself out too much I think.
[sarcasm
give ur tiger zealous claws!!!1[/sarcasm]
:-P
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TIger's Fury disables all non attack skills (thus forcing a recharge) so two staple skills that never leave a beastmaster skill bar (Charm Animal, Comfort Animal) become fuel for Enraged Lunge. On top of that, Tiger's Fury + a Flatbow help your Ranger to dish out respectable damage in addtion to what your pet is dealing. The problem is that you are required to take points out of Expertise to put into marks, and that's where the energy problems come in.
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Jul 08, 2006, 02:49 AM // 02:49
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#195
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: http://tinyurl.com/2jlusq
Guild: Idiot Savants [iQ]
Profession: R/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SnipiousMax
The problem is that you are required to take points out of Expertise to put into marks, and that's where the energy problems come in.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sha Noran
You're spreading yourself out too much I think.
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Mhmm, that's what I said. With the Beast Mastery build I listed in my original post, I don't use a bow at all; I just use the staff I use for trapping (FitE FTW!). Keeping Call of Haste and Pred Bond up all the time keeps them recharging, on top of one or two attacks recharging means maxing out Enraged all the time. I sacrifice that little piddly amount of bow damage for an incredible amount of energy, which means spamming attacks and Enraged Lunge the whole time.
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Jul 08, 2006, 04:22 AM // 04:22
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#196
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Perfectly Elocuted
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^ Well if Jeno's build is anything like mine... It also has a prep in there. It's not piddly at all.
But it's hard to maintain.... So I always look at what types of mobs I'd be facing before deciding on Damage output or Endurance.
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Jul 08, 2006, 04:47 AM // 04:47
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#197
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Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Jul 2006
Profession: W/Mo
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If I were to make a beastmaster what would my secondary class be?
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Jul 08, 2006, 05:14 AM // 05:14
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#198
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Master of Beasts
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Guild: Servants of Fortuna [SoF]
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Yes, the bow damage isn't piddly. With 12 marks and Read the Wind, and Tiger's fury, with a 2 second firing bow... it's substantial. There's no doubt that it pounds out the damage, between the ranger and the pet.
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Jul 08, 2006, 06:00 AM // 06:00
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#199
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Desert Nomad
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: http://tinyurl.com/2jlusq
Guild: Idiot Savants [iQ]
Profession: R/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abaddon Therull
If I were to make a beastmaster what would my secondary class be?
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Monk probably, for a rez, but really you won't even use your secondary for a Beast Master in most cases.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epinephrine
Yes, the bow damage isn't piddly. With 12 marks and Read the Wind, and Tiger's fury, with a 2 second firing bow... it's substantial. There's no doubt that it pounds out the damage, between the ranger and the pet.
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Running your build in that way would indeed do quite a bit of substantial damage, but not for long. With 12 in Mark as you stated and probably a good deal (15? 16?) points in BM, you don't have much left for Expertise, leaving you low on Energy very quickly. Between spamming your pet attacks and Tiger's Fury, and keeping your prep up, you're going to be hurting no matter what you do. I would suggest you try just focusing on Beast Mastery and watching the bad guys blow up with Enraged Lunge.
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Jul 08, 2006, 06:04 AM // 06:04
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#200
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Forge Runner
Join Date: Nov 2005
Profession: R/
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Abaddon Therull
If I were to make a beastmaster what would my secondary class be?
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It really doesn't matter much since you'll have a hard enough time deciding what skills to pack in your bar after Charm and Comfort Animal take up two spots. I'd suggest monk or ritualist secondary myself, but only for the hard rez.
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