Curse

Sir Mad · Jul 04, 2006, 03:50 PM // 15:50

A lot of amens there, but I have a few points to comment:

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Sentry’s: This armor’s bonus offers an additional 10 armor while your Ranger is in a stance. That’s decent I suppose… but if you’re in a stance, you’re generally already evading a good percentage of damage anyway. There are better options, particularly if you’d like additional armor, such as…

The only time I can think of when this would be nice is when you're using Tiger's Fury. With its tiny downtime and its IAS, it's a rather nice stance to have up continuously. It's not for everyone all the time, but it definitely is a common scenario that would benefit from the Sentry's armor.

Let's be serious: you're definitely right in most of the case when you have one and only one (defensive it is) stance. When do you you use it? When you're in trouble. What's its effect? You avaid 75% of the attacks (generally). Low benefit then. However, there are a few builds where you're always in a stance. Mainly R/Me solo builds with Mantras. In this case, that may be a nice armor, especially since with Mantra of Fire/Frost/etc you gain energy and therefore druids is not really needed.

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Scout’s: Now this armor is actually decent. If Druid’s wasn’t so incredibly just what a Ranger needs, this would be the armor of choice. If you’re doing anything reasonable with your Ranger (i.e. NOT Barrage) you’ll be under the effect of a Preparation all the time, meaning you’ll have bonus armor all the time. That’s a big thumbs up from me… but Druid’s is still better. :-P

No need to imply that Barrage usage is being unreasonable. There are definitely times when Barrage is an excellent skill.

That point aside, this armor's usefulness comes down to the fortitude vs. defense mod argument. Is it better to have extra health or extra armor? How much extra health is equivalent to how much extra armor? It really depends on what the enemies you're facing at the moment are doing, and I'm not sure you can make a definitive statement one way or the other. Sometimes one will be better and sometimes the other will.

As many players I think you misread the description. The bonus is not when you have a preparation active but when you're activating one. At least that's how it was during the fpe. I haven't tested it since. Did they change that?

Concerning the chapter about bows,I would add one thing (that was suggested above): the key-word is switching. Learn to press F1-4. Do not let than to PvPers. I may post a few situations as examples to show what bow to use nd when later I guess...

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You're absolutely right here in that short bows are a prime bow for close-quarters combat but not what you'd want to make your primary weapon. I would say that hating them is a bit severe, though you're entitled to your opinion there. If I don't have a Flatbow ready in a quick-swap spot, then I always have at least one shortbow at the ready. There really is no replacement for that 20% damage bonus from the fastest refire rate, especially when that 20% is a boost across all damage, preps and vamp mods included.

Short bows are indeed not my primary weapons but that's still my favorite bows. I'd like to point out one situation where they should be your primary weapon however: in the competitive missions. I know it's a PvE forum, but I consider those missions as a mix between PvP and PvE. One typical example (I use to go Luxon in Aspenwood): I rush on the right side near the kurzik teleporter with a hornbow on (I use a vamp shortbow so I switch to it only when I use it). Usually there are a few warriors, soon blinded (throw dirt FTW), and a few casters dodging my arrows (hornbow) when they're not casting. I use to let them dodge one or 2 arrows to get confident. Then I switch to my shortbow. I just never miss. They can run, it will hit. They will think the first arrow not avoided was just bad luck. Then they'll start wondering what going on with the 2nd arrow that hits them. But it's too late then to run. This defintely one case where a short bow is my main weapon. Of course even there I switch if needed.

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This bow is really usable any time your bow damage doesn't particularly matter, though there may be better bows to be had for such cases. There are always the odd ball drops or Prophecies quest rewards (that if you're like me, you never kept and later hated yourself for) which offer damage reduction and the like. Depending on your situation, one of those might or might not be preferable.

I wouldn't suggest the Candy Cane Bow for interrupting, however, as a recurve is much nicer than a shortbow.

Candy Cane bow is a must-have for me when I go oath shot trapping with 36 WS and 13 expertise...

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I think you've got a bit too much generalization here. Some base mods were removed from the game, and it might be beneficial to separate between those that have and those that haven't.

I think he's refering to the 15/-1 bug with zealous strings. One of the 2 -1 energy degen was sipped and if you replaced the zealous mob by another one, it became +15 unconditional.

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No, it's not decent. It even out does the Sundering String as far as worthlessness goes. The Marksmanship grip does not increase the bow's base damage or chance of critical hit when it triggers, and there isn't a single bow attack which gains more than a +1 damage from a 1 point increase in Marksmanship. That means that at best you're getting +.2 damage per skill you use.... utter crap.

Never say that XD I use this grip on 2 bows: a silencing bow and a crippling bow. Indeed I won't use that on my main bow. But when you have a bow you use only for 1 skill or so and then switch to another one, this may be the best choice.

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I agree that these mods are pretty much a joke. Unless you plan on extensive farming against a particular enemy type, I'd just ignore the slaying mods. To create a collection large enough to make efficient use of these mods simply isn't worth the investment when there are already so many other mod combinations that are important to have on hand.

See my post above. Once you have completed the game the main areas you go generally are the tombs, FoW and UW (well ta least that's where most of the people used to go before factions). Getting a grip for those areas may be a good idea then.

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My own collection is similar in size, though I recently trimmed the fat and brought it down to 10 bows. I think it's interesting to note that I have not a single slaying mod and still managed to find more than 10 different bow combinations that I absolutely need.

I'd also like to comment that it is never a good idea to make your entire bow collection out of one kind of bow. The different bow types all have different strengths, and thus its a very good idea to have different bow types catering to different situations you may encounter.

Amen, but again... cough... slaying.. prunning...

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*coughvampiriccough*

Provided you're not dumb enough not to unequip your vamp bow when you're not fighting lol. I see so many players with a vamp who don't seem to know about F1/4. Sometimes you even see ranger use keep troll onguent active all the time (when they're not fighting) just because they're too lazy to switch to a non-vamp bow when they don't use it. As a monk I generally don't heal this kind of player btw when they're not fighting...

About the poison string. Yes and no. If you're poisoning multiple targets and have a presure build, then of course go for a poisonous bow. But if you're focusing on one single target and poison is just here to add extra damage, then don't use it since you're going to shoot a new arrow every 2 sec / 2.7 secs and poison the dude again.

Jenosavel · Jul 04, 2006, 04:38 PM // 16:38

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Originally Posted by Sir Mad

Let's be serious: you're definitely right in most of the case when you have one and only one (defensive it is) stance. When do you you use it? When you're in trouble. What's its effect? You avaid 75% of the attacks (generally). Low benefit then. However, there are a few builds where you're always in a stance. Mainly R/Me solo builds with Mantras. In this case, that may be a nice armor, especially since with Mantra of Fire/Frost/etc you gain energy and therefore druids is not really needed.

Ah yes. I knew there were other cases, but when faced with the amount of info I was posting there, all but Tiger's Fury slipped my mind. ...even though I mentioned soloing with Mantras elsewhere...

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As many players I think you misread the description. The bonus is not when you have a preparation active but when you're activating one. At least that's how it was during the fpe. I haven't tested it since. Did they change that?

Actually, since there had been so much confusion about how it works, I tested it myself just prior to making that post. You get the extra armor so long as you have a preparation up.

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Short bows are indeed not my primary weapons but that's still my favorite bows. I'd like to point out one situation where they should be your primary weapon however: in the competitive missions. I know it's a PvE forum, but I consider those missions as a mix between PvP and PvE. One typical example (I use to go Luxon in Aspenwood): I rush on the right side near the kurzik teleporter with a hornbow on (I use a vamp shortbow so I switch to it only when I use it). Usually there are a few warriors, soon blinded (throw dirt FTW), and a few casters dodging my arrows (hornbow) when they're not casting. I use to let them dodge one or 2 arrows to get confident. Then I switch to my shortbow. I just never miss. They can run, it will hit. They will think the first arrow not avoided was just bad luck. Then they'll start wondering what going on with the 2nd arrow that hits them. But it's too late then to run. This defintely one case where a short bow is my main weapon. Of course even there I switch if needed.

Shortbows are my favorite as well, along with Flatbows. The point about Competitive missions is an interesting one, as I haven't yet played them enough to get a good grasp of the strategy.

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Candy Cane bow is a must-have for me when I go oath shot trapping with 36 WS and 13 expertise...

The point I was trying to make is that in builds like the Oath Shot trapper, your bow damage really isn't going to make or break you. You're laying traps the majority of the time, and your damage is going to be reliant on them. The bow auto-attacking with the Candy Cane will of course add to your damage, but you're not going to be attacking enough for it to be a point of worry if you don't have a Candy Cane Bow. Because of this, sometimes it's better to go with a bow that offers other effects.

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I think he's refering to the 15/-1 bug with zealous strings. One of the 2 -1 energy degen was sipped and if you replaced the zealous mob by another one, it became +15 unconditional.

He could have been. I just thought it could use a little clarification.

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Never say that XD I use this grip on 2 bows: a silencing bow and a crippling bow. Indeed I won't use that on my main bow. But when you have a bow you use only for 1 skill or so and then switch to another one, this may be the best choice.

For a spare bow you're not going to use for more than an attack here and an attack there, then yeah the Sundering is just as good as any other string. However, due to their popularity Sundering Strings are vastly more expensive than other options. Why pay so much plat for a string on a bow you'll almost never use?

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See my post above. Once you have completed the game the main areas you go generally are the tombs, FoW and UW (well ta least that's where most of the people used to go before factions). Getting a grip for those areas may be a good idea then.

Its true, but building up an entire set is probably a waste of time.

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About the poison string. Yes and no. If you're poisoning multiple targets and have a presure build, then of course go for a poisonous bow. But if you're focusing on one single target and poison is just here to add extra damage, then don't use it since you're going to shoot a new arrow every 2 sec / 2.7 secs and poison the dude again.

This is definitely true. I see too many people using a poisonous string when they only sit on one enemy. When each arrow is refreshing the duration, this is a complete waste. Of course, you also have to keep in mind how much condition removal you'll be running into, since that will make the extended duration pretty useless as well.

Epinephrine · Jul 04, 2006, 05:04 PM // 17:04

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Originally Posted by Jenosavel

Shortbows are my favorite as well, along with Flatbows. The point about Competitive missions is an interesting one, as I haven't yet played them enough to get a good grasp of the strategy.

Ditto. Flatbow with RtW is a great combo; range, speed, damage. If I have RtW on my bar in PvE you can bet it's a flatbow in my hands. Otherwise Longbow/Shortbow swapping is the way to go (in my mind) unless doing something specific (Ranger spike, interrupting...)

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Originally Posted by Jenosavel

The point I was trying to make is that in builds like the Oath Shot trapper, your bow damage really isn't going to make or break you. You're laying traps the majority of the time, and your damage is going to be reliant on them. The bow auto-attacking with the Candy Cane will of course add to your damage, but you're not going to be attacking enough for it to be a point of worry if you don't have a Candy Cane Bow. Because of this, sometimes it's better to go with a bow that offers other effects.

Agreed - I like a modded Ithas bow (of Defense) for the +10 AL, or the reward bow from the Blankets for the Settlers quest, as it's a -2 damage in stance bow; stick a defensive grip on it for the 5AL and -2 reduction. Ithas works better for big hits, Blankets bow is better versus numerous smaller damage hits.

Sir Mad · Jul 04, 2006, 05:04 PM // 17:04

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Originally Posted by Jenosavel

Shortbows are my favorite as well, along with Flatbows. The point about Competitive missions is an interesting one, as I haven't yet played them enough to get a good grasp of the strategy.

The point I was trying to make is that in builds like the Oath Shot trapper, your bow damage really isn't going to make or break you. You're laying traps the majority of the time, and your damage is going to be reliant on them. The bow auto-attacking with the Candy Cane will of course add to your damage, but you're not going to be attacking enough for it to be a point of worry if you don't have a Candy Cane Bow. Because of this, sometimes it's better to go with a bow that offers other effects.

Oh yes I definitly agree. When I wrote "must-have" I meant for a player whose ranger is his main char and have a few Ks to spend in a candy cane bow (and is maniac enough to be willing to a hopefully one more damage point than with a starter bow).

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For a spare bow you're not going to use for more than an attack here and an attack there, then yeah the Sundering is just as good as any other string. However, due to their popularity Sundering Strings are vastly more expensive than other options. Why pay so much plat for a string on a bow you'll almost never use?

I may have misquoted there. I was refering to grips of marksmanship, not surrending strings. I use them with crippling bows and silencing bows, mainly in PvP or GvG. Concerning their price, fortunately it's way cheaper than surrending mods and I found a few for 1k in the auctions part of this site. Again, that's not a big deal.

EDIT - Shame on you who quoted my typos by the way! Now I can't edit my other post

EDIT - Thanks for the clarification about the AL bonus with preparations.

XvArchonvX · Jul 04, 2006, 05:24 PM // 17:24

First of all, I'd like to thank Jenosavel for joining us on this thread. Whether I agree or disagree, I have found that he always states a mature response with well thought out counter points. There are just a few things I thought I would touch on from this debate.

Concerning the Tiger's Fury debate, I would argue that this is a legitamate skill to put in the right build, even if there are no other BM skills used. However if there is room to provide, bringing a pet with Disrupting Lunge may be a decent addition for the added damage as well as ability to spam an interupt while attacking or using attack/damage skills. Of course this is a situational substitution and the interupting with Disrupting Lunge can often be a sort of "Hail Mary" approach unless you are experienced with how pet attacks work and are going against enemies with long cast times.

One example of when I did find this useful was when using a Practiced Stance + Choking gas build against Golems in between Granite Citadel and Copperhammer Mines. The Disrupting Lunge added a bit of extra damage and allowed me to continue to interupt even when recasting choking gas. The damage from the pet was nice also since I didn't do much damage with my bow from Choking Gas.

To link this to the substitution of Practiced Stance + Choking Gas with BHA, I think I have to agree. I don't think this substitution can be legitamate considering the strengths of PS + CG is that it is an AoE interupt designed to go against large collections of casters and BHA is designed to center on interupting a single enemy.

Just as a side note:

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Originally Posted by Jenosavel

The first area which springs to mind is the Fire Island Chain where there's at least one area swarming with Meteor-Shower-packing fire imps.

It's been a while since I've been back in the fire islands since the release of Factions and all, but if I remember right, the Imps use Rogdorts Invocation and the Hydras use Meteor Shower. Of course if this is true, it really has no impact on the argument since PS + CG is very effective against either/both of these skills.

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Barrage: Ugh, I'm gonna take some crap for this because I know there are a lot of Barrage fans out there, but I'm gonna lay it out there for you. Barrage is a crappy Elite. Maybe if it were a normal skill that cost a bit extra, it would be ok. But it strips your preparations, and for what? 6 arrows. Sounds great.... until you begin to try to remember when the last time there were 6 PVE enemies close enough together to take the hits. You're much better off with Poison Arrow or Melandru's Arrows.

One thing I disagreed with Sha on that I never really got around to discussing was the usefulness of Barrage. I think Jenosavel summed up the reasoning for this rather well. The ability to multiply your damage so easily is really what makes this skill shine. The lack of a preparation does lessen damage per arrow, but the multiplying of damage makes up for this and also allows you to have an extra skill slot when preparing your build (This also allows you to bring a pet for even more damage if you choose). This skill also makes Favorable Winds a legitamate choice in many arrows since you will be spitting out more arrows than your enemies at many points.

As for the argument that enemies are not close enough often enough for this skill to be legitamate, I would have to argue here. Although this is true of some areas (in which case a Barrage build is not optimal), the majority of places you will go will allow you to still hit at least 2-3 enemies at once with barrage.

The damage done from Barrage in many areas is very close to the damage done from Spiteful Spirit in some areas. Like SS, it is also one of the few AoE skills that don't trigger enemies to flee.

Using Barrage is also one skill that really makes a vampiric mod shine, even though if is useful in other builds as well.

I have to agree with Jenosavel on the evaluation of the bow mods discussed in Sha's guide. I remember a while back I posted a thread asking what others thought of the +1 Marks 20% mod, and after reading the responses, I decided to scrap it. The damage is really negligible whereas the defense of a fortitude or defense mod is much more noteworthy. Although I have been tempted to get a sundering bow string since it's buff to 20/20, I think I'm still going to stick with my vamp mod. The degen only is harmful when you are not attacking and having another bow to switch to in those cases is the easy cure for this.

I tend to keep a poison mod on most of my bows for financial reasons as well as due to personal preference in my builds (I'm loving the fact that there are so many fleshy enemies in Factions ~.^). I do however like to keep my vamp bow on me when I'm going for straight damage or running a barrage build since the +5 damage does come in handy (the health regen when using Barrage is also quite nice).

I've never really bothered with Ele bow strings much myself. They do work well against some enemies with weaknesses to certain elements, but I tend to bring spirits to deal with them when I can. The extra damage against warriors can be nice, but ele strings also have a weakness to rangers and elementalists. I know these bowstrings can be useful, but I've never felt it to be enough to justify buying a new bow or modding a current one.

As for the rest of the arguments that I did not comment on, it can be generally assumed that I agree with what has been said. I understand why Sha's guide has not been stickied, but I think if there are some corrections made, it could be worthy of such and I would like to see this happen. Some of the resources are found lots of other places (such as the info on bow types), but having all this information in the form of one compact guide would be helpful to a lot of people looking to get a bearing on using their rangers without spending all week researching. Contributions to the GW community FTW!

SnipiousMax · Jul 04, 2006, 07:24 PM // 19:24

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Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Ditto. Flatbow with RtW is a great combo; range, speed, damage. If I have RtW on my bar in PvE you can bet it's a flatbow in my hands.

It's uncanny how well it preforms under RtW. It's kicked my longbow out of my bow rotation almost completely.

Another bow that I've been using lately is a Hornbow. I use Tiger's Fury in my barrage builds now, and the damage output is incredible with the constant AP, a vamp mod and FW. Just as Jeno said, the close packed map with large mobs make Barrage a nice option.

Jenosavel · Jul 04, 2006, 07:39 PM // 19:39

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Originally Posted by Sir Mad

I may have misquoted there. I was refering to grips of marksmanship, not surrending strings. I use them with crippling bows and silencing bows, mainly in PvP or GvG. Concerning their price, fortunately it's way cheaper than surrending mods and I found a few for 1k in the auctions part of this site. Again, that's not a big deal.

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Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

I remember a while back I posted a thread asking what others thought of the +1 Marks 20% mod, and after reading the responses, I decided to scrap it.

I remember that thread.

I bookmark some of these things where I take the time to do the math, so that at a later point I can reference it (because I will eventually forget what results I got). When the Marksmanship Grip litterally only comes out to +.2 damage per attack, there's really no reason to bother. It's a rediculously pathetic amount, so even if it is the only offensive grip I can't justify it.

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It's been a while since I've been back in the fire islands since the release of Factions and all, but if I remember right, the Imps use Rogdorts Invocation and the Hydras use Meteor Shower. Of course if this is true, it really has no impact on the argument since PS + CG is very effective against either/both of these skills.

Normally this is the case, but I believe there was one spot in one of the missions (Ring of Fire?) where if you took the 'short cut' suggested by the Visier it actually lead you through swarms of enemies which used Meteor Shower, and I believe they were imps regardless of the fact that the normal imps use Rodgort's Invocation.

Psst, Archon. I'm a she.

Lasher Dragon · Jul 04, 2006, 07:52 PM // 19:52

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Originally Posted by Epinephrine

....Otherwise Longbow/Shortbow swapping is the way to go (in my mind) unless doing something specific (Ranger spike, interrupting...)

That's been my setup for nearly all of my ranger play time: longbow/shortbow switchups. I've played around with all the rest, and I always end up coming back to the longbow/shortbow combo. I don't like the hornbow class because they seem so incredibly slow (especially compared to shortbow), I don't like the recurve because it just doesn't stand out enough for me, and I don't like the flatbow because without RtW or FW it shoots like a water-balloon launcher.

Of course, there are plenty of reasons and situations to use all these bows I dislike, but I guess I'm just getting stodgy in my old age and don't want to carry around any more bows. I've got so many damn bows they are starting to spill over into my other character's inventories lol. I don't mind getting in the thick of battle, so the shortbow is my workhorse. It works for DPS and it works for interrupts.

SnipiousMax · Jul 05, 2006, 01:02 AM // 01:02

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Originally Posted by Jenosavel

Normally this is the case, but I believe there was one spot in one of the missions (Ring of Fire?) where if you took the 'short cut' suggested by the Visier it actually lead you through swarms of enemies which used Meteor Shower, and I believe they were imps regardless of the fact that the normal imps use Rodgort's Invocation.

Doesn't that shortcut lead you through a pack of fire casting dryders?

Sha Noran · Jul 05, 2006, 02:44 AM // 02:44

Thank you all for finally having some very positive discussion here. Much better than the bickering that seemed to be going on before. >.>

In particular I would like to thank Jenosavel for her lengthy post regarding specific areas of the guide which needed work. I started writing this quite some time ago and my understanding of the game has progressed since then, but I didn't go back to fix everything. I also didn't spend much time writing about the new Canthan armor sets. I'll be changing a good bit specifically because of your post, in particular:

I'll clarify right at the beginning of the guide that this isn't a solo Ranger guide at all. All of the information is regarding a Ranger built for group activity.

Lightning Reflexes isn't really a viable option, so I'll be taking that out as an alternative to Tiger's Fury (which is absurd).

I'll remove some of my Barrage-hate from the guide, but not all of it. I'm just fed up with groups that ask for Barrage or Traps because that's the only two things they know Ranger's can do, and also with Rangers who don't know what they are capable of beyond these two lines.

I'll be changing my wording around to clarify the possible uses of the Sentry's, Explorer's and Scout's potential uses.

I'll be cleaning up my bow section to a degree to try to make it sound a little less blatantly in favor of one type of bow. I suppose it was a little misleading as to the even faintest possibility of any other bows being useful (which they can be, and are).

I'll also be changing my bow mod section, to a degree. Looking back there are more than a few horrible misinformations that need to be fixed.

Other than those, I have a few things I would still disagree with you about, such as...

Zealous Bow Strings still suck. I'm going to edit what I said about them originally, but I still think that no matter what there is always a string that's better than the Zealous for primary use.

Tiger's Fury still isn't worth it in my mind, and neither is Barrage because of their conditional usage. There is a time and place for everything, but in most situations, I would choose Punishing over Barrage.

In my list of skills to not use, I specifically say that they are skills you should almost never use. There are uses for Edge of Extinction, for example, but new Ranger #6948 should probably not just toss it on his bar unless he's got some idea of when to use it already.

Oath Shot still is not worth it in a group. The skills you mention should not be needed more than once during their recharge duration anyway, and even in the off chance you wish you could Throw Dirt twice in 45 seconds, it's not worth wasting your Elite slot to do so. I may have not made my case very well in the OP, but I'll be fixing it; it doesn't matter if it works. As a Ranger IN A GROUP, it just is not useful.

Anyhoo, I'll try to have the edits up tonight if I don't get too caught up in this whole holiday thing. >.>

EDIT: Updates made. See if that's better...ish.

XvArchonvX · Jul 05, 2006, 04:56 AM // 04:56

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Originally Posted by Jenosavel

Psst, Archon. I'm a she.

Oops, I apologize for the confusion.

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Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Thank you all for finally having some very positive discussion here. Much better than the bickering that seemed to be going on before. >.>

I agree that I think this thread is taking a much well deserved turn for the more civilized, which I am glad to see.

I still believe Tiger's Fury and Barrage have more merit than Sha gives credit for, but I will leave this with subtle difference in opinion. I am glad to see the changes you intend to do and hope this leads to this thread being stickied.

Sha Noran · Jul 05, 2006, 05:33 AM // 05:33

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Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

...intend to do...

Done. :-)

Epinephrine · Jul 05, 2006, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Well, I said I was done here as you wouldn't listen to anyone, and here you are listening to my guildmate's comments.

I still have numerous issues with the guide,and if you'd like I will bother typing them out (much like Jenosavel has done), in an effort to help correct information in some instances and to provide an alternate perspective in others. I don't expect you to stop using a Longbow for example in favour of a Flatbow (which I generally do any time I use Read the Wind) but it would be fair to present both sides of a contested issue - typically authors acknowledge the views of their peers, even if they disagree with them personally.

If you want my input I'll happily provide it, especially as I have an interest in getting a more neutrally toned guide out there; anyone can put a bunch of opinions down, but a good guide tends to remain more neutral, possibly offering opinions while acknowledging the other opinions about an issue. Your guide would (in my mind) be much improved with a more open take on things.

Few major points though, whether you want feedback or not - I just think it's important to mention:

You still have Expertise 10 listed on many builds (9+1); this isn't a breakpoint for the skills you are using, and squanders attribute points. I think an essential point in ANY guide to rangering is a copy of an Expertise cost breakpoint table, stressing that to determine your required expertise you should look at the skills being used (and the frequency of use) to determine investment. Typically the breakpoints are 8 (for predominantly 5-cost skills), 9 (for 10 and 5 cost skill combinations), 13 (for predominatly 5 cost) and 14 (again, for 10 and 5 cost skills). In my mind the consideration of the zealous string comes into this as well; your machine gun build looks like it might be energy hungry for example at the listed 10 Expertise (at 3 energy per quickshot) - Zealous strings can help keep other attributes high by supplementing the expertise, especially with skills that up attack rates.

I think that the Vampiric/zealous section is too slim, and doesn't address the issues; Frog Devourer wrote a guide way back about these; obviously the numbers for sundering have changed, but the advice is still good.

You mention the JI /barrage build, and sy that it's better than conjure - but at another point you talk about the advantages of elemental damage. I think these two topics are really the same topic, and deal with shifting damage type to suit your enemy; in PvE you can even plan what to bring that way. So while Conjures may not be universally better than JI, I'd rather go Conjure Flame in the Shiverpeaks and Conjure Frost in the Ring of Fire for example than bring Judge's Insight in either case. In addition, if you know that there are many warrior types out there they suffer the equivalent of 20% or so armor penetration from the elemental damage anyway, since they have 100/80 armor levels. Fitting in with these, I'd say that Enchanting grip isn't needed for a Conjure build so much, but for a JI build it's pretty handy. These builds also benefit from having a "while enchanted" bow - I have many bows myself, among them is an Fiery bow of Enchanting (I think it's +17%, I'm cheap) with +15% damage while enchanted - the ideal bow for me, for that role; it gives me extended Judge's Insight times, it bumps my damage while enchanted, something I try to maintain while attacking, it's fiery to allow me to use Conjure Flame, but if needed I can use Winter to convert damage to cold (I also have an Icy bow of Defense, but it's 15%>50 instead - for if I want to run Conjure Frost instead of winter, though if Cold damage is handy I tend to want to convert everyone's damage - it's handy though with Spinal Shivers, if a necro is bringing it and asks for people to use Icy weapons)

Lastly for now, I think that weapon swapping /multiple bows is a very important concept for any ranger. Having the right bow for the job is essential; while you say that you use a Long bow for everything I have to say I think that's a poor choice, given that it costs you nothing (in terms of efficiency - obviously there is a monetary cost) to have a shortbow in your second weapon slot. Switching to the shortbow once they are in closer range (which is often the case) adds 20% to your damage; that's a really big deal. Pressing F2 isn't hard. Weapon swapping is a must for really efficient builds - I'll admit to not keeping a Recurve around for interrupting, but having Long/Short bow is just sensible, and if you are using Zealous/Vampiric you really want a non-Zealous/Vampiric switch.

Anyway, there is lots more I could say, just tell me if you care to hear it.

Sha Noran · Jul 05, 2006, 09:36 PM // 21:36

Yes, I'd love to hear more about what in particular could be changed for the better in this way. I'm not interested, though, in hearing broad statements about how dumb I am for using (x) skill or whatever. Please do post more specific changes that you think might make the guide better on the whole, it's much more productive than whatever was going on before; I can't promise I'll agree with you, but I'd certainly like to know if there are specific issues that might be incorrect.

I think that I cover quite specifically just how important it is that Rangers have multiple bows to suit their different situations, so I don't know if you're reinforcing what I said or would like to see more of it.

Judge's Insight is a better overall build than Conjure simply due to its versatility, but yes, again, the build you're using should be very specific to your situation. Common sense is quite the ally, and you make good use of it in your specific examples. :-D

You're right regarding the Expertise breakpoints, it would be nice to cover that towards the beginning. I'll add that in.

The reason many of my builds are off is primarily due to the fact that I like my numbers to come out even. I'm wierd like that, and 9 Expertise to get 15 Mark just bothers me. I'll fix the builds though, to show it with breakpoints in consideration, since this is an overall guide and not my little OCD number guide. :-P

As far as the Zealous and Vamp parts, I thought I pretty much covered it but I'll take a look after while and see if I might overhaul it to make it better.

If you had other specific points I'd be happy to look over them and see if changes would really improve the guide. I appreciate constructive critism and such but when someone ROFL's me in the second feedback post it's a little unnerving. >.>

XvArchonvX · Jul 06, 2006, 02:04 AM // 02:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

I'm not interested, though, in hearing broad statements about how dumb I am for using (x) skill or whatever.

Who's calling you dumb? Did I miss something?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

If you had other specific points I'd be happy to look over them and see if changes would really improve the guide. I appreciate constructive critism and such but when someone ROFL's me in the second feedback post it's a little unnerving. >.>

Who are you talking about? The discussion has been quite civil for quite a while now and I'm not sure where these personal attacks you speak of are coming from unless you are simply referencing to discussion from a couple pages back.

xnightmythx · Jul 06, 2006, 03:45 AM // 03:45

I should have checked in more often! I just read from page 6 on out.

???Azog??? Squashed like a bug??

No comment.

I'm sorry to interrupt the on going discussions, but...

Guys I feel I have to remind you that in GW, Rangers like yourselves make up but about 5-10% of the entire Ranger population in GW. Most people that set out to play Rangers do it because they see characters like Aragon/ Legolas in LOTR, and are inspired by the charisma and glamor associated with the Ranger class. Very few of us set out to master the Ranger in the kind of in-depth knowledge and experience that has been written here.

While I agree that Sha's guide should be as accurate as possible, bear in mind that the avg Joe Ranger doesn't even know to stay RANGED or which bow he or she should be using. What I am trying to say is that any imperfections or opinions made by Sha only means something to Advanced Rangers, and since they are bright enough to post counter arguments/comments/discussions, and be able to tell a difference in the matter maybe this guide is more intended for helping those who need help even with the most basic of things.

Longbow! Flat bow! Longbow! Flat bow! Longbow!

Most seem to be obsessed with bows such as the Ivory.
(did you guys know the Ivory bow can be dyed in pretty colors

)

You guys have posted some very in-depth, intelligent information, but the bigger picture says most won't even get it. Just bear it in mind. Sha is not writing a book or guide he intends to sell. He has targeted to raise the level of education of the general Ranger population, and has done a great job at it.

PS. For those of you who will reply with, "it still needs to be accurate information." please don't misunderstand me, I agree with that, it just that I'm merely pointing out there seems to be a lot of nit picking, without considering the bigger picture.

Nightmyth

SnipiousMax · Jul 06, 2006, 06:50 AM // 06:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnightmythx

I'm merely pointing out there seems to be a lot of nit picking, without considering the bigger picture.

Nightmyth

That's not an excuse for not accepting nitpicks. Before I turn in a term paper, as this guide was dubbed by the OP, I have several people nitpick my work. Sometimes it's irritating to listen to other people tell me stuff they would change. Sometimes I'm may flat disagree with them. But it's all aimed at presenting a better work. Whether or not Sha agrees with me or others about Apply/Poison Arrow or Trapper's Focus/Anything else is unimportant... But one nail in a board isn't going to hold it straight. Given enough collective experience and views, you can produce something much more accurate and neutral than anything you could do on your own.

xnightmythx · Jul 06, 2006, 07:49 PM // 19:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

That's not an excuse for not accepting nitpicks. Before I turn in a term paper, as this guide was dubbed by the OP, I have several people nitpick my work. Sometimes it's irritating to listen to other people tell me stuff they would change. Sometimes I'm may flat disagree with them. But it's all aimed at presenting a better work. Whether or not Sha agrees with me or others about Apply/Poison Arrow or Trapper's Focus/Anything else is unimportant... But one nail in a board isn't going to hold it straight. Given enough collective experience and views, you can produce something much more accurate and neutral than anything you could do on your own.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XNIGHTMYTHX

PS. For those of you who will reply with, "it still needs to be accurate information." please don't misunderstand me, I agree with that, it just that I'm merely pointing out there seems to be a lot of nit picking, without considering the bigger picture.

Once again bro you misunderstand my point. I don't disagree with that, (see bold text on my previous post) .Too bad I'm at my lunch break atm, or I would go back and find the endless nitpicking over Flat bow vs. Long bow. My point is that some things are always going to be based on opinion and preference regardless of facts.

What works good for one player may not work for another. If you truly aim to better Sha's guide, you would incorporate that into your arguments/discussions and perhaps Sha could then offer 2 or 3 options that will have similar results within reason. Instead people argue about one being better than the other and the problem with that is, "better" can be subjective to how you play.

Anyways, I don’t want to stop the flow of your posts. I also want you to know Snipious I value your discussions and you opinions very much. In no way am I starting an argument with you or anyone else. I just think that to help new players, we have to see it more from their perspective.

Epinephrine · Jul 06, 2006, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Ok, taking time for a commentary now :P I'll not belabor things too much I hope, but I am prone to rambling. For your info, I'm not bothering to include areas where I agree and it's obvious, as saying "Yes, I agree" doesn't matter much. I may have included a few "Yes! I aagree!" points, as they are really worth mentioning, and I didn't want it to only be a list of objections :P

I'm not going to discuss builds; builds are very much a matter of preference, with everyone tweaking to their liking - my only comment that way might be to adjust the expertise values more optimally (which I already said before) and to possibly discuss gear specific to builds briefly here (for example, in the Conjure/Barrage build it might be worth pointing out that a 15% while enchanted modifier may generally be less sought after, but is useful in this build, as you are likley always enchanted and far enough back to not be disenchanted)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Storm Chaser: Storm Chaser is the best non-Elite sprint stance Rangers have, and it can be nice to have along if you know there will be long segments in the upcoming Mission/Quest/Cap Run/etc. that you will just be running through.

It is often good, sure, but many builds don't run Wilderness survival - I think perhaps instead of talking specifically about Storm Chaser it might be worth mentioning speed buffs in general, and within that subject address Storm Chaser. In that vein, perhaps the whole "skills" section would be better organised by skilltype/role than by attribute? I can see the logic of attribute based discussion, but for example, discussing all the preparations under the subject "Preparations" might allow for easier comparisons, as discussing "Speed buffs" in a group would allow comparing and contrasting Dodge, Escape (actually a pretty good skill, since it's a speed buff and defense), Storm Chaser and Run as One.

That's just a layout suggestion though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Whirling Defense: This is, in my opinion, the best Ranger defensive stance. It doesn’t last long, but it can come in handy when it gets down to the nitty gritty of the fight.

I'm surprised you say it doesn't last long - it can be 21 seconds out of 45, which is pretty substantial. Compared to warrior defensive stances, and indeed other defensive stances like Drider's Defense and Lightning Reflexes this is a long stance. Agaain, comparing stances might be handy under the heading "Stances"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Called Shot: Because this shot moves 3 times faster than normal and cannot be "evaded" or "blocked", this is the best shot to use when pulling (although it should be noted you don’t have to actually hit the group to create agro). Oftentimes when trying to pull your shot will miss or be "dodged" because they are moving (that won't stop the mob from being pulled, but that extra hit early on is nice anyhow :-D). You can also be pulled farther than you'd like to be (agroing more than you wanted) when trying to shoot a slower arrow. If you know you'll be pulling a lot (i.e. UW/FOW) you may want to bring this along.

Seems a bit contradictory - I'm not sure I'd include this. The fact that you can pull with a miss, and in fact that a longer flight time allows more time to retreat makes me question this advice. I know that pulling with a flatbow I can keep a rein on henchmen very easily, as I have a long time before the arrow hits (or misses, and it doesn't matter if it misses) - so I fail to see why you want a faster shot ifor pulling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

NEVER put points into an attribute just to use ONE skill out of that attribute. Find another skill in a different attribute to use, then consolidate your points.

Awfully strong statement. Especially given that many builds (Judge's Insight, Conjure, Victory is Mine trapper and so on) use one skill from another skill line. Perhaps temper it - as in "IF you are tempted to invest points in an attribute for a single skill, ask yourself if it is essential? Can I get this effect another way, using the attributes I'm already investing in?" or something. I don't like "never".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

NEVER have more than one preperation. They don't stack and recharge fast enough that you don't need/can’t use two.

Well, for most things I'd agree, but there are times when I use two. For example, I may bring Read the Wind, but have Seeking Arrows as well since I know that there is a section where I will need to hit through a lot of evasion/blocking (possibly aboss or other part of a mission). Likewise, I've brought along Kindle for a mission, but packed Choking Gas as well to deal with a specific section, where casters are in groups (the Fire imps on the back pathway in Abaddon's Mouth?). I guess I just mean that there are times to do it - but I wouldn't pack two damage preps - one is generally to deal with something (a utility skill) and the other is a damage prep. Again, I just find "Never" to be a bit too strong - there are times to do it, just think before packing a skill that will sit on your bar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Beast Mastery:
Edge of Extinction: I can't believe I actually have to list this, but I see people use it all the time. Think! You're more likely to kill your own group with it than anything else... make sure if you're going to use this that your group, in particular your healers, know ahead of time!

Agreed completely that you must tell your group, and you shouldn't use this randomly - but typically in any fight enemies die more than players, and this is a powerful skill for speeding up kills. For example, at say 40 damage per death and 10 enemies in range the EoE will deal as much as 1800 damage over the fight, for a rather small amount of energy - that's killing power ((9+8+7+6+5+4+3+2+1)*40).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Otyugh's Cry: This shout might be nice if ALL the wild animals in the game weren't level FIVE. Completely worthless.

This skill is also a "Watch Yourself!" for pets. If you have multiple pet rangers it's a great skill, cutting damage to your front line by 30%..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Tiger's Fury: I mentioned this above, but I'll repeat it here. This skill IS decent in certain builds that use Ranger as a secondary (i.e. W/R), but as a primary Ranger, you shouldn't ever have this. It's a Beast Mastery skill that doesn't have anything to do with your pet. Worthless.

Ok, this I disagree with - it bumps up your damage on a very small investment. With 3+1 in it you can keep 70% speed boost, or 35% bonus damage. If you are running a pet/bow build (say 15 BM, 12 marks and 9 expertise, like Jenosavel and I often run) there's almost no excuse not to include it, as it's a 50% bonus to your bow damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Oath Shot: This Elite is simply not a very good one for any Ranger playing in a group atmosphere. Assuming you've got your wits about you enough for this skill to hit realiably, you still will not see enough benefit from it to make much use of the increased recharge. There simply are not enough skills that have slow enough recharges that you need to make use of your Elite slot to bring them back.

Again, I think this simply has to be considered carefully. It can be very handy - remember that you have secondaries as well - even if you don't like the perma-whirling defense and blindness, it can cycle Ritualist spirits for a group for example, and Expertise does reduce the cost of Binding Rituals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Practiced Stance: This might be an ok skill if it weren't an Elite, but because it is you should never use it. Of course, people tend to bring up its effectiveness when combined with Choking Gas, but other than that combination it really has no use.

Sadly, I agree that that's it's only real use so far. I do like CG/PS though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Barrage: Now don't get me wrong; Barrage has its uses. The biggest mistake Ranger's make, however, is capping Barrage and then forgetting that there are other Elites out there.

TOTALLY agree. Barrage/pet isn't the only build out there folks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Choking Gas: This skill would be really nice if it lasted just a little bit longer. As it is, you can't interrupt enough skills with it to make it worth it. You could, feasibly, use this combined with Practiced Stance (and that's pretty much the only way to go about it) but you're better off with something else entirely in most cases.

Well, I like CG/PS builds, and use them very often in PvE. The fact that the AoE interrupt doesn't scatter foes allows wonderful supression while letting your team (and in my case, pet) do the dirty work. I don't know if you've played around with it, but it is a fun build that can be a powerful interruption force. The fact that I can be blinded and STILL be interrupting is hilarious.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Healing Spring: This is actually usable in PVP, but I would strongly reccomend you leave it behind for PVE unless Trapping as your primary skill set. Healing your allies isn't your job. The easily interrupted part in particular finishes it off as worthless. Bring Troll Unguent and be happy you did when it saves your ass.

I only object to the bit I emphasized. Rangers can play many different roles; a while ago a guild group did Hell's Precipice with no monks, and before that I had done an all ranger party through Ring of Fire - in both cases we had to divide up roles, and Healing Spring played an important part in the success of both groups. I think that it isn't worth bringing unless your role includes healing the group. Again, my dislike of "Never" and black and white statements comes through here - ask yourself what your role is; if you are in a support role, great. If it's an attempt at a self-heal for a damager, forget it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Fur Lined:

Pretty much the only armour of the elemental set worth taking. My ranger dresses in this or in Druids, depending on the party setup (Winter or cold areas? Sure. Otherwise Druids).
[/quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

1. How often in the game are you faced with Lightning Damage? ... Can't remember, can you? Gargoyles in Ascalon maybe?

Yeah, Factions has lightning everywhere. All the damage by channeling skills is lightning - so all those ritualists, plus a portion of the elementalists. But I'd just take winter and wear my Fur Lined, so I agree - not useful.

Sentry’s: This armor’s bonus offers an additional 10 armor while your Ranger is in a stance. That’s decent I suppose… but if you’re in a stance, you’re generally already evading a good percentage of damage anyway (unless you're running something along the lines of a Tiger's Fury build, which I personally wouldn't recommend anyway). There are better options, particularly if you’d like additional armor, such as…
[/quote]
There are also the long acting mesmer stances, but I agree that you need a good reason for this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Other XXX Bows:

Might include the new bows in here, the amber, jade, bramble etc...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Ascalon Bow: There is one very pressing reason to never use them: you don't know what kind of bow it really is. Some Ascalon Bows are short bows, others are longbows. It is possible to use community resources and even test the specific bows, but in my opinion its so easy to get other bows that it's just not worth the trouble.

I don't know, I'd just post a link to the guide to ascalon bows on guildwiki. They're effective and cheap, so I like them. When you're new to ranger and trying to build up a buunch of bows it's a good place to start.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Ithas Bow: This bow was given out to those who pre-ordered the first installment of the game, and that right there should tell you just how useful they are. It's down points include that you CANNOT obtain one in a trade, and it has a Marksmanship as well as an Expertise req., the only bow in the game with two (every other bow in the game has only a Marksmanship req.). Just... don't use it. Trust me.

The Ithas bow only has one requirement to deal it's damage (Marksmanship) - the other requirement is to gain the extra 5 AL. Given that it's the only way to get 10AL from a bow, I like it. Sure, it's not for a damage oriented build, but not all rangers are playing that way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Candy Cane Bow: This bow was available exclusively during the “Wintersday” event of 2005. With a set damage of 15-15 and no req., it actually does have some usability, for both interrupting and for use in a trap group. However, it is a Short Bow in type, and should not be used for pulling.

Despite it not haviing a requirement, it still behaves like other bows, pulling it's damage modifier from Marksmanship - so a player with no marksmanship still only deals 35% of the listed damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

-The Elemental Bow Strings are nice as they give you an advatage over enemies in generally every area of the game if you have an assortment. It is true that the Conjure series of Elementalist skills (i.e. Conjure Flame, Conjure Frost, etc.) does work with bows using these mods.

And versus warrior foes

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

-Zealous is never worth it. It is true that you do fire fast enough to make up for the loss of one pip of Energy regen, but there are better bow mods available for a PvE Ranger, certainly as your primary bow. I would only suggest a Zealous as a switch-to bow to make some Energy back when low (particularly with a Barrage build).

You know I disagree strongly with this. Zealous is one of the best strings, especially in a build that fires fast. More energy = more skill use. If you don't need the extra energy, lower your expertise, put the points into other attributes for more damage. Since a ranger is essentially turning energy into damage, more energy is good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

-The Marksmanship bonus is decent, but there are better options... it won't increase your damage output very much at all (read: 0.2%) however the increased condition duration on some skills may be worth it (i.e. Crippling Shot). Note that this is not an "all the time" and therefore will not boost your stats or help you meet the req. on a bow you are one attribute level short of.

I'd hesitate to ever recommend this in any way. The most it can do is increase the damage from Marksmanship skills - it doesn't even affect your regular arrows. So if every attack you made was a bow attack you could gain that 0.2 damage, but you don't even have that. It's just a bad upgrade.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

-The Enchanting bow grip is an enigma to me because Ranger's have no enchantment spells. Your secondary may provide you with some to use occasionally (Conjure, Judges), but really it’s not worth using your bow grip slot on this mod.

Well, I keep a bow with this grip and 15% damage when enchanted, but that's because I sometime run builds with enchantments, or have a bonder in the party or one of many situations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

When picking a bow for your Ranger, you want something that meshes well with his or her build. Don't try to use my bows simply because they work for me, because they may or may not work for you.

Amen - it's all the build.

So Sha, hopefully that's constructive

Sir Jameson · Jul 06, 2006, 10:45 PM // 22:45

A build I typically use for my ranger when I'm doing an all-around group-oriented technique is:

Power Shot
Barrage {Elite}
Distracting Shot
Apply Poison
Conjure Phantasm
Troll Ungent
Ressurection Signet
Charm Animal

It is made specifically for a R/Me and is based on combining Barrage with massive health degeneration and using a pet to keep most enemies off of you while you cast spells and shoot the enemies to death. I know it doesn't come anywhere close to the best ranger build, but it's working very well for me in PvE group situations.