Curse

Sha Noran · Jun 27, 2006, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasher Dragon

Distracting Shot
Needling Shot
Apply Poison
Ignite Arrows
Choking Gas
Practiced Stance {Elite}
Whirling Defense
Troll Unguent

>.>

<.<

>.<

SnipiousMax · Jun 28, 2006, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Wrong. The difference is the ammount of damage done once the Poison is applied to the targets.

Just ran the test as you wanted, one at a time... my way, ~45 seconds to kill the 60, 80 and 100 armor suits. Yours took about 1:10. I can film it and post it if you'd like, or you could just conceed that you're wrong. Up to you I guess...

Go ahead and post the vids. I'm intrested in how you played 'my' build. I managed it under a minute. I'll venture to say that your time was on the high side of '~45'. By all means post the vids.

<EDIT>

In fact, running this build here.

Marks: 15 (accidently used a major instead of superiour)
Expertise: 13
Wilderness: 5

1. Apply Poison
2. Penetrating attack
3. Sundering Attack
4. Hunter's Shot
5. Savage Shot
6. Escape
7. Troll Ungent
8. Res Sig

I managed to kill all three targets in 35 seconds. Notice, not many points in wilderness survival, no second prep. I'm intrested in seeing your videos.

Sha Noran · Jun 28, 2006, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

1. Apply Poison
2. Penetrating attack
3. Sundering Attack
4. Hunter's Shot
5. Savage Shot
6. Escape
7. Troll Ungent
8. Res Sig

I managed to kill all three targets in 35 seconds. Notice, not many points in wilderness survival, no second prep. I'm intrested in seeing your videos.

Silly me, I thought the two prep combo was the secret to your success!

And no, I've decided that vids are unneccessay. I'm not going to get in a pissing contest over this. You're wrong. If people would like to go try out the builds, I hope they do.

SnipiousMax · Jun 28, 2006, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

If people would like to go try out the builds, I hope they do.

We agree on something!

Badger2 · Jun 28, 2006, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Sha, I commend you for taking the time and effort to put these builds together and writing this guide. For me there is alot of helpful information that I will be trying out.

*begin rant
Some of you say that this guide is loaded with prejudice and bias. Of course it is. This is a guide as to what Sha finds that works for him (I assume) and has no choice but to be prejudiced and biased towards other builds. If you disagree with the information provided in this guide, go write your own guide and if you already have, good job. Where is it?

Also, if you see a mistake that Sha made please be specific as to what the mistake is and provide the corrected information. Don't just say that this guide is full of errors.

end rant*

Again, Sha, good job.

Sha Noran · Jun 28, 2006, 11:05 PM // 23:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

We agree on something!

We agree on plenty of things, I'd assume, or you wouldn't have such trivial arguements. ;-)

Badger2: Thanks, I'm glad you liked it. I hope the stuff you try out works for you. :-D

Azog · Jun 29, 2006, 10:19 AM // 10:19

To Sha:

I have read this argument from the beginning, all at once, so I have a unique perspective on the entire thing. So, my comments reflect that perspective.

Sha, you have not represented yourself well here. I do not know who you are, and, from reading your posts, at this point, I really don't care to know you. You have come across as arrogant, closed-minded, and rude. I do care enough, however, to point out to the world what a mistake it is to take your opinion as gospel.

You have fallen to using "absolutes" - blanket statements where you say, "this sucks" or "that blows", and you never really give an explanation of why you believe that way. We are forced to rely on your credibility.

QFT, you have none.

OH MY GOD, TIMMY! RUN FOR THE HILLS! SOMEONE ACTUALLY REALIZES THAT SHA NORAN HAS NO CREDIBILITY AND HAS TO BACK UP HIS/HER WORDS WITH PROOF! THE SCAM IS BLOWN!

I don't care if you say you've been playing the ranger for a long time, and so "you know what you are talking about". I don't know you. You may have been playing for a week. Just because you say you've been playing the ranger for a long time doesn't automagically make it true. Furthermore, it simply isn't relevant. This is the Internet, remember? I could say I'm Santa Claus and I think that Oath Shot is da bizzomb, but it wouldn't make it any more true or any more false because I said it.

You are closed-minded to a fault. You won't even consider alternate solutions or possibilities - change, growth, or innovation are closed books to you.

How can I trust someone like that? Point in fact, I can't. I can't even trust such a person to provide a serious, well-considered debate.

Sha, I am totally disgusted with your attitude, and your mannerisms. As I have said before, I don't know you, and hence, you have no credibility with me. What does this mean?

This means that when you give an opinion, and expect it to be taken as fact, then you absolutely must provide proof to back up your claim. Your opinion on it's own means nothing.

Finally, I want to address your plagiarism of the builds you have posted in your ill-fated guide. For the record;

Plagiarism is when you take the work of others, and present it as your own.

Quoting is when you take the work of others, and present it along side your own work.

What you have done is blatant plagiarism. Most of the builds that you have posted have appeared, in one way or the other, on this forum board, this website, or other places. Nothing sparkling new there, and if there was, it would be hard to pick out which parts are your own innovation and which parts are plagiarized, because you claim credit for the whole thing.

You presented a lot of builds, and to actually make the claim that you developed each and every one is ludicrous. This would imply that you have played each and every build for long enough to figure out what worked, and what didn't work, and had bought all of the correct equipment for each one, bought the correct runes, weapons, and armor, and spent countless hours testing the build until you had tweaked it to a point that you felt it worthy for the public.

UNLESS, of course, all of your builds are theory-craft, which brings us back to the point about your credibility - and how you have none, so presenting your opinion on theoretical builds with nothing more than a casual paragraph to back up why it does, or does not work, would just be completely stupid.

But the most likely reason is that you just stole them, and presented us, again, with your biased and personal opinion without supporting factual information.

Fix it. Or be laughed at forever.

I will close by saying that I wish I could have been more constructive in this post. But, the situation did not warrant, or merit, constructive criticism. It merited public derision, ridicule, and shame. But, to quote you,

Quote:

Post regarding it again if you want, but I'm done. You're wrong. Sorry.

Azog

P.S. Not all rangers use bows. Just something that you might want to think about.

Azog · Jun 29, 2006, 10:25 AM // 10:25

CLASSIC SHA NORAN MATERIAL

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

You have an obvious disdain for PvE anyway, so whatever. Saying Trapper's Focus is a waste of an Elite slot is ingnorant.

It is hard to take someone seriously when, in calling someone else ignorant, they mis-spell the word ignorant.

Proof-reading FTW. QFT. Yo.

Azog

Azog · Jun 29, 2006, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Badger2

Sha, I commend you for taking the time and effort to put these builds together and writing this guide. For me there is alot of helpful information that I will be trying out.

*SILLY BITS SNIPPED OUT*

Again, Sha, good job.

That would be great, had Sha Noran actually put those builds together. You can find most of them in other places, with a hell of a lot more data and explanation as to why they actually work (or, don't work).

Azog

Sha Noran · Jun 29, 2006, 10:41 AM // 10:41

Lol? I guess I'll just ignore most of that, despite how much offense I take at being accused of plagerism after the hours of work it took to write this. If you really don't want people to tell you their opinions then, um, I guess... don't read forums?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azog

P.S. Not all rangers use bows. Just something that you might want to think about.

Umm, nope some use Hammers, and some use Staves, as I indicated in my post... that you read so thouroughly.

Your post would be amusing if it weren't so offensive. I'm not even sure what to say really. Sorry I couldn't help you dude.

EDIT: Whoa dude, you need to back off. You triple-posted in the time it took me to reply to your first rant.

Azog · Jun 29, 2006, 11:41 AM // 11:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Lol? I guess I'll just ignore most of that, despite how much offense I take at being accused of plagerism after the hours of work it took to write this. If you really don't want people to tell you their opinions then, um, I guess... don't read forums?

Ok, I will spell it out slowly - opinions are meaningless without facts to support them.

Opinions...are...meaningless....

Ah, nevermind. You'll never get it anyhow.

As for your plagiarism, fix it.

Quote:

Umm, nope some use Hammers, and some use Staves, as I indicated in my post... that you read so thouroughly.

Yet, 99.99% of your original "guide" focuses on bows. So, your guide is not...exactly...a ranger guide...but a bow-using ranger guide.

Labelling it as such would be helpful. Actually, labelling it "SHA'S TOTALLY NOT-STOLEN AND COPY AND PASTED GUIDE TO BOW RANGERS WITH SOME OTHER THROWN IN, ALL BY ME SHA THE NON-PLAGIARIST" would be far more accurate.

Quote:

Your post would be amusing if it weren't so offensive. I'm not even sure what to say really. Sorry I couldn't help you dude.

Hearing you say that...that my post was offensive...just makes me all warm and fuzzy inside.

Quote:

EDIT: Whoa dude, you need to back off. You triple-posted in the time it took me to reply to your first rant.

Not until you are squashed like a bug.

Azog

MrScaRy · Jun 29, 2006, 12:21 PM // 12:21

Reading these 2 quotes talking about numbers and calculations...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Here's the quote:

Since you seem to think Savage is so great at spreading the Poison "quickly", let's also look at numbers as far as time spent to Poison 5 seperate enemies with the two builds.

You're build:

Apply Poison (2 Seconds)+Savage Shot(x5) (25 Seconds)= 27 Seconds

My build:

Kindle Arrows (2 Seconds)+Poison Arrow(x5) (5 Seconds)= 7 Seconds

If you want your arrows to move faster, use Read The Wind, don't spam Savage Shot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Your build uses Apply Poison as a prep so that every shot Poisons your opponent, then spreads this poison "quickly" by Savage Shotting around the group.

Apply Poison (15e)+ Savage Shots(x5) (50e)= 65 Energy

My build uses Kindle Arrows as a prep so that each shot deals a bit of extra damage, then uses Poison Arrow to spread some degen around the group.

Kindle Arrows (5e)+ Poison Arrow(x5) (25e)= 30 Energy.

The numbers arent lying.

Emphasis on The numbers arent lying . There we go. I think that the OP has good intentions, but fails to display his common sense. But wait... there's more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

QFT. It's common sense people, really.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snipious Max
As I'm tabbing through my targets, I notice an Elementalist is about to cast Lightning Orb, so i Savage Shot dealing extra damage and saving my monk from having to heal the damage.

Yea, Savage the Spell, then Poison Arrow, then move on. It's not like you're a bot, only able to use Poison Arrow until everything is Poisoned. Again, common sense ftw.

In a more recent post...... common sense ftw!

Sha Noran · Jun 30, 2006, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Azog: Seek therapy.

Any admin: Could I get a hand with that assclown please?

MrScaRy: Yea, I don't like getting into the math of it all because 99% of the time it isn't even necessary. Just read the skills, honestly.

Azog · Jun 30, 2006, 05:49 AM // 05:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Azog: Seek therapy.

Any admin: Could I get a hand with that assclown please?

MrScaRy: Yea, I don't like getting into the math of it all because 99% of the time it isn't even necessary. Just read the skills, honestly.

Sha,

You presented some quite obnoxious, arrogant viewpoints over the last 5 or so pages, including inside your guide itself, and now you are trying to lay the blame of all your mis-deeds at the feet of someone who disagrees with you...???

Who needs to seek therapy again?

Clearly, you are just wrong, but won't admit it. What did you say about the river in Egypt?

No, if an admin needs to handle -me-, then a fair and just admin would have to handle you as well.

Azog

MrScaRy · Jun 30, 2006, 05:54 AM // 05:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Azog: Seek therapy.

Any admin: Could I get a hand with that assclown please?

MrScaRy: Yea, I don't like getting into the math of it all because 99% of the time it isn't even necessary. Just read the skills, honestly.

I think you fail to see my point. You were using [retarded] calculations to prove that someone's build is terrible.. but the calculations you were using are far from "common sense ftw" as you put it. Do you really think it takes 27 seconds for someone to poison 5 mobs using apply poison? If you were saying that you need savage shot to quickly poison mobs.. why use it in the first place.. when it only takes around maybe 6ish seconds to refire your arrows.

You were talking about common sense of other people, when you did not display any common sense at all in those calculations.

XvArchonvX · Jun 30, 2006, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Ok, first of all, Azog, I can't say I completely disagree with you on everything, but your flaming is getting out of hand. Please tone it down a bit, no one here needs to be "squashed like a bug"

As for Sha, flaming back is just as bad as what he is doing. Cussing and calling people names is very immature. No matter who started it, each time you continue a flame war you only make it worse.

As for the accusation of Sha plagiarizing, I'm not sure I would go so far with that accusation. Many of the builds Sha has posted have been around for a long time and Sha was almost certainly not the first or only person to think of the concepts behind the builds he posted. The only real difference between most of Sha's builds and the builds commonly used by other rangers is slight variations in skill slots and attribute distribution iif even that much. Whether this warrants him the ability to slap his name on these builds and claim them to be all his own, I will not say, but I wouldn't believe that he copied them straight from someone else in every case nor did he think of every build all on his own with no direct influence by anyone else.

A lot of what Sha's guide is, really is not anything new. Basically it is a repackaged display of a lot of either common knowledge or information available other places sprinkled with his own personal preference. However don't get me wrong, I do not mean to imply that there is anything inherently wrong with this. As long as opinions are kept in check and are not blurred with facts, this is ok. However it should be known to any reader of this that his opinions are still opinions.

As for Azog's accusations of Sha's ego, I will admit I have seen it flare and do often see Sha refusel to admit not only that he is wrong, but also that there may be two right opinions. However he has admitted that he was wrong at times so the accusation of his failure to ever admit he is wrong is therefore inaccurate.

Sha Noran · Jun 30, 2006, 08:36 AM // 08:36

This guide would have been gone long ago if it hadn't have been for the few people that have whispered me or said out loud that this has helped them. Some people are such COMPLETE ingrates that they can't just appreciate the time it took to do this. If you would like to continue your personal vendetta against me, whisper me, or an admin, about what an asshole I am. Barring that, the discussion should be entirely composed of the actual guide and its content.

If this sort of drivel continues I'll just delete it. I really do not need to have all this shit talked about me and my guide that you seem to took me 20 minutes to copy paste from some magical location. It's been up on my guild's forums for some time now, and everyone was so positive about it that I thought I would post it here and try to help some people out.

To make it clear, I appreciate everyone's opinion... if you like it, please say so. If you don't like it, please say so and state why. But going on and on for several posts in a row about the fact that I'm opinionated and biased is not improving this thread at all, or helping anyone, so please, just try to keep it minimal at least? Thanks.

XvArchonvX · Jun 30, 2006, 03:30 PM // 15:30

I personally would be dissapointed if you deleted your guide. As much as I have criticized your guide, I have not said that it is wrong or bad so I hope that is not what you take from my posts. I however don't see what is wrong in saying that it is opinionated or biased. When you say that a skill is not a good choice, that is an opinion. There is nothing wrong with opinions. The only reason I pointed out that such are opinions is because even the greatest of guides are simply that: guides. A player should take all sources of information they obtain as a grain of salt and use their collective knowledge to steer them in a successful direction and not rely completely on one source.

I have said before and will say again, I appreciate the time you have put into this guide. However just because you spent a lot of time on it doesn't mean that flaws or innacuracies should be ignored. I could spend 5 hours on a guide, but if it misleads someone or has mistakes it still is in need of improvement.

My advice to you Sha is to stop taking everything so personal. Not all disagreements with you are personal and the ones that are should be shrugged off. There are unappreciative disrespectful people everywhere, don't let them control you into falling into anger. Take a look at their argument objectively, pull out any pieces of truth and let the rest fall. There will be flamers no matter what, but keep your head high, don't sink to their level and the people worth surrounding yourself with will notice your good actions.

Azog · Jun 30, 2006, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

This guide would have been gone long ago if it hadn't have been for the few people that have whispered me or said out loud that this has helped them. Some people are such COMPLETE ingrates that they can't just appreciate the time it took to do this. If you would like to continue your personal vendetta against me, whisper me, or an admin, about what an asshole I am. Barring that, the discussion should be entirely composed of the actual guide and its content.

If this sort of drivel continues I'll just delete it. I really do not need to have all this shit talked about me and my guide that you seem to took me 20 minutes to copy paste from some magical location. It's been up on my guild's forums for some time now, and everyone was so positive about it that I thought I would post it here and try to help some people out.

To make it clear, I appreciate everyone's opinion... if you like it, please say so. If you don't like it, please say so and state why. But going on and on for several posts in a row about the fact that I'm opinionated and biased is not improving this thread at all, or helping anyone, so please, just try to keep it minimal at least? Thanks.

Sha,

To begin, I have stated my reasons, very clearly, about what I think is wrong with this guide.

But, for the sake of fairness, don't delete - FIX IT. Remove your ego from the document, and add more fact. Opinion is okay - but not the rule. Here is an example;

---- What is behind the scenes ----
Fact - the sky is blue.
Opinion - blue sucks.

---- What really happens ----
Your own personal opinion - the sky sucks.

---- What never gets said ----
I hate the sky because it is blue, and because I hate blue.

Now, if you follow the logic, we see that the pattern formed is that the fact portion of the equation is skipped, the opinion is presented, and we never actually understand why.

Learn, and grow, and get your feelings off of your sleeve.

Azog

YouDigress · Jun 30, 2006, 11:46 PM // 23:46

^^^

What the hell?

Azog, if you really despise this guide SO much and despise the creator SO much, then don't read it. It'll solve all your problems for you.

I've read through all six pages of this thread, and my head is spinning right now, so I'll do my best to throw out some general impressions.

Archon - Hybrid builds tend not to work very well, from experience. Of course, I haven't been playing for quite a while, AND I'm coming back from a trip on WoW. I might be wrong, but trying to cover both the monk and the tank using one build doesn't seem like it would work. Of course, I haven't even tried playing it, so I wouldn't know. I'm only speaking from experience here. And not even a very intensive experience. You can probably disregard my words if it works fine for you.

EDIT--I've even got a headache right now. So if anything in this post gives the impression that I'm uninformed, it's not because I'm actually ignorant. It's because I can really concentrate very well right now.

As for all of the math...throwing up multiplication with casting times and cooldowns and all that good stuff. It's perfectly understandable for one to put up the numbers if the whole combat process were automated, to the point where there would be no need to have any timing skill whatsoever. However, the timing is there. One actually needs to time their skills. Guild Wars has drawn numerous comparisons to Magic: The Gathering, and I can understand that. GW and MTG are similar because they both limit a player to bringing a certain number of tools, and force that player to use the tools brought in the most resourceful manner. Like I've said above, the only difference between the two is the fact that GW is real time and MTG is not. Therefore, numbers have much less of an impact in GW than MTG. I can personally say that as long as I see big yellow numbers on my screen or as long as I see their big red bar going down really fast, I'm good. I realize that what I've just said was ignorant and all that, but it's just a part of me. I like to know that I'm doing a lot of damage to other people. It's the visceral impact. Because of this, numbers don't really mean that much to me when questioning the efficiency of effectiveness of a certain build. Sure, the numbers work in a perfect world. But in GW, there are a lot of things distracting me from thinking about the numbers. Maybe it's because I'm a bad player, but that's how I think about it.

To sum it all up--stop putting up numbers. It's confusing. :-D