Curse

Avarre · Jun 25, 2006, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Degen is worthless because it kills much too slowly, especially against higher level mobs. It's worthwhile to use against bosses because it counter's their natural health regen. Against normal mindless mobs its a wasted effort, because everything dies quick enough that degen does not have enough time to deal a significant amount of damage. Believe what you will, refrence all you want, but in practice poison does not kill quickly enough to be much help in PvE. Were you solo... It would be a different story. But any edge it gives your group over another group is imagined.

Degen isn't for attacking a single target, it's for placing on multiple targets because it takes only 1 application. That's the whole POINT of dot. When degenning non-targetted mobs, you can often knock off 10-20% of their health before they are attacked by the group.

SnipiousMax · Jun 25, 2006, 02:47 AM // 02:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Degen isn't for attacking a single target, it's for placing on multiple targets because it takes only 1 application. That's the whole POINT of dot. When degenning non-targetted mobs, you can often knock off 10-20% of their health before they are attacked by the group.

Right, but that 10-20% cannot compare to what SS necros, Warriors or Nukers can do. What I'm saying is that it really doesn't make a difference in the long run.

And you've never liked degen.

XvArchonvX · Jun 25, 2006, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Your numbers and yourself show that assuming all traps are dropped, near to equal damage is put out. However, you still fail to aknowledge the sheer number of times you'll be interrupted using an Oath Shot trapper build compared to a Trapper's Focus build, which reduces your overall damage considerably. Da Nile ain't just a river in Egypt. :-)

My numbers show both builds causing equal damage in conditions that are realistically not possible for the Serpent's Quickness build.

As for Oath Shot being interupted, the likeliness is next to none since it's an attack skill that is cast just as quickly as any attack you deal. What I think you attempted but failed at conveying clearly was that if you miss with Oath Shot your skills must be recharged. This however depends on who is using Oath Shot. If you are a fool and shoot at distant targets that are running around, you will likely miss. The same could be said if you are shooting at enemies that run evasive or blocking stances.

As I have always said, know your enemies. If you know who you are going up against, you have no reason to miss. Even if you do, it only causes skills to recharge for 10 seconds. Since traps recharge at 20 or more seconds, the effect is equal to neglecting to shoot Oath Shot for one turn.

I fail to see any flaw unless the person shooting Oath Shot is not paying attention to what they are shooting at.

This may be backtracking slightly in debate and going off topic a bit, but I was just curious as to how you would define "changing the subject".

XvArchonvX · Jun 25, 2006, 03:30 AM // 03:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Right, but that 10-20% cannot compare to what SS necros, Warriors or Nukers can do. What I'm saying is that it really doesn't make a difference in the long run.

And you've never liked degen.

I agree with both you and Avarre. Degen will not do the same damage that a SS necro, warrior, etc will do, but there's no ranger skills that really will. The advantage of degen is that you can concentrate on other things while degen does the damage for you.

Sha Noran · Jun 25, 2006, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

As for Oath Shot being interupted

Grrrrr.... your TRAPS are getting interrupted, not Oath Shot.

XvArchonvX · Jun 25, 2006, 05:53 AM // 05:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Grrrrr.... your TRAPS are getting interrupted, not Oath Shot.

If you are referring to the number of times one gets interupted then I would reccomend you to look at my statistics one more time. The 11 traps in 48 seconds took into account that 25% of the traps were interupted. I even gave you the benefit of the doubt that they were interupted at the last second so the time it took to cast them still was taken into consideration with the 48 seconds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Now let's take into effect that ideally, 25% of the time, using Whirling Defenses, you will be interupted. This roughly interperets out to 4 (we'll give Sha the benefit of the doubt by rounding up) out of the first 14 that occur using two Oath Shots (One after the first round of traps dropped and one after Oath Shot recharges) and you have 10 traps dropped in a 48 second time period (this number comes taking into account the time it takes for all traps to be dropped at 2 seconds to drop each and also assumes that you are not interupted until the last possible second, again giving Sha the benefit of the doubt.)

Unless you are failing to express yourself correctly again, I would question whether you read my post all the way through. I clearly took the possibility of being interupted while not taking downtime in Trappers Focus and Serpents Quickness. The benefit of the doubt weighed in your favor yet damage came out roughly equal.

xnightmythx · Jun 25, 2006, 07:33 AM // 07:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Degen is worthless because it kills much too slowly, especially against higher level mobs. It's worthwhile to use against bosses because it counter's their natural health regen. Against normal mindless mobs its a wasted effort, because everything dies quick enough that degen does not have enough time to deal a significant amount of damage. Believe what you will, reference all you want, but in practice poison does not kill quickly enough to be much help in PvE. Were you solo... It would be a different story. But any edge it gives your group over another group is imagined.

Yeah bro I imagined all of Tyria and Cantha. Right. Its obvious that you don't have an understanding of degen in Pve. Degen actually makes for faster killing. Poison is meant to burden the enemy and his monks. The Monks have to focus on healing the afflicted foe therefore not being able to effectively heal the others. We exploit that by taking advantage of the overburdened monks and the result is a mob that dies much quicker.

Sha Noran · Jun 25, 2006, 08:17 PM // 20:17

The problem, really, is that 25% of the time is NOT the same as 25% of your traps. Depending on the agro, it's going to be really alot more than that... and then if you have enemies with attacks that cannot be blocked/evaded (Seeking Arrows, Seeking Blade, Sun and Moon Slash, etc., etc.), you're really screwed.

Like I said, run it if you want, but my build puts out a great deal more reliable damage than an Oath Shot trapper's.

XvArchonvX · Jun 25, 2006, 10:31 PM // 22:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

The problem, really, is that 25% of the time is NOT the same as 25% of your traps. Depending on the agro, it's going to be really alot more than that... and then if you have enemies with attacks that cannot be blocked/evaded (Seeking Arrows, Seeking Blade, Sun and Moon Slash, etc., etc.), you're really screwed.

25% of the time does also depend on how many enemies are attacking you. If a ton of enemies are attacking just you, yes this build is not appropriate. If you are going into an area where enemies use attacks that cannot be evaded, such as against Naga, then yes, this build is not appropriate. The reality is however that this build has a higher damage potential. I never argued that this was always the best build to use everywhere, but if you are in a suitable situation, this build will deal more damage as well as keep you alive longer. As I always say, know your enemies.

Another thing to consider is that the enemies all melee based enemies will be blinded by dust trap, so the actual likeliness of them interupting you goes from 25% to 0%. Besides if you are in a "trapping group environment" there will basically be a constant blind from the group dropping Dust Traps. This is evidence in favor of an Oath Shot build in a trapping environment contrary to this statement:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Like I said, run it if you want, but my build puts out a great deal more reliable damage than an Oath Shot trapper's.

If I'm not mistaken, you said this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

An Oath Shot Trapper most certainly does not out damage most of my builds. That's simply a stupid thing to say. On the most simple comparative scale, my Trapper's Focus build outdamages an Oath Shot Trappper anyday.

This statement would lead me to believe that no matter what, a Trappers Focus build does more damage, but now you say that it is better because it is more reliable? Before you stated that the damage didn't rely on anything and now it does? I'm sensing a change of direction in your argument.

I am interested however if there are any others that believe that your build will "always" deal more damage than an Oath Shot build because so far you are the only one that I have seen posting with that opinion.

Also if I may, I did ask a question that you never responded to. Lasher at one point did not respond to a part of your post even though you never asked him directly about it. Does this mean that you are changing the subject? Perhaps if you defined what changing the subject was, I would understand your logic better.

Sha Noran · Jun 26, 2006, 12:24 AM // 00:24

At this point, you're just confusing yourself. All of the points you bring up are just confusion, on your own part mostly.

Trapping in a group environment implies trapping as part of a team, not as part of a Trap group. If you're in a Trap group, you lay all of your Traps before engaging the enemy at all, making Trapper's Focus worthless (as I state in my guide).

Yes, my build does more damage AND is more reliable. It deals more damage partly because it IS more reliable.

As for changing the subject, I was referring to one party losing his argument, then bringing up a different point to distract from the fact that they were wrong (i.e. when he challenged that he dealt more damage, I proved him wrong, and he brought up defense).

I said myself that the damage goes away once you get off Dust Trap, which negates your argument regarding damage reduction through Oath Shot trapper stances. You continue to post, but add nothing new to the discussion.

SnipiousMax · Jun 26, 2006, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnightmythx

Poison is meant to burden the enemy and his monks. The Monks have to focus on healing the afflicted foe therefore not being able to effectively heal the others.

I'd agree with that, except mob monks are mindless. They can't keep up with any normal amount of damage. And most people kill monks first anyway.

XvArchonvX · Jun 26, 2006, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

At this point, you're just confusing yourself. All of the points you bring up are just confusion, on your own part mostly.

No, I'm not confused. I will take each of your arguments one point at a time. I did leave a bit of a typo with the broken quote, but I cleaned that up as it was supposed to be erased. My replies are long, but if you get lost, feel free to let me know where to clarify. ~.^

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Trapping in a group environment implies trapping as part of a team, not as part of a Trap group. If you're in a Trap group, you lay all of your Traps before engaging the enemy at all, making Trapper's Focus worthless (as I state in my guide).

This is true of some groups, but not all. You don't always have to use this route, though it is the method for UW trapping.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Yes, my build does more damage AND is more reliable. It deals more damage partly because it IS more reliable.

Look, I still have yet to see proof that your build can drop more traps than an Oath Shot build can. So far your only defense has been either that you get interupted which depends on number of enemies attacking you. That number is then decreased to the number of enemies that are blinded by you. If you are having trouble getting interupted due to extremely large aggro, there is always the option to drop Healing Spring and take Throw Dirt. Then simply approach the enemy ranger(s), blind them then drop Dust Trap last to extend the time blinded. Since any melee enemies that are attacking you have to follow you to attack, they will also be blinded and your traps will do damage to both the melee enemies and ranged enemies.

The only other point against Oath Shot that I have seen you present was that anti-evade attacks would interupt it often. The same could be said of a Trapper's Focus build against enemies that use interupts. If you use an Oath Shot build, it really doesn't matter whether your enemies can interupt or not because you evade attacks, not attempt to tank them.

As for your overall statement of reliability, I'm not sure how you can argue this when your build has less defense. Survivability still plays a role in how much damage you can deal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Trapper's Focus is better for trapping in a group environment.

How is this better for a group environment when you put more stress on the monk in your group?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

I said myself that the damage goes away once you get off Dust Trap, which negates your argument regarding damage reduction through Oath Shot trapper stances. You continue to post, but add nothing new to the discussion.

The damage goes away for 7 seconds out of the 20 seconds you wait for Dust Trap to recharge assuming Serpent's Quickness is active. If it is not, then you are only defended for 7 of 30 seconds.

Even with the defense argument nullified I still have yet to see any argument that completely blows an Oath Shot build out of the water as you try to make it seem or make it superior "anyday".

xnightmythx · Jun 26, 2006, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

I'd agree with that, except mob monks are mindless. They can't keep up with any normal amount of damage. And most people kill monks first anyway.

Mindless? I got nothing to reply against that kind of ignorance. If you understood programming code like I do then I would elaborate but I wont even bother.

Most people kill the monks first? Most people don't know how to use their aggro bubble.

Sha Noran · Jun 26, 2006, 08:39 AM // 08:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

How is this better for a group environment when you put more stress on the monk in your group?

I'm tired of this argument. If you're putting stress on your Monks with my build, either:

A) Your Monks are worse than the henchie Monks
-or-
B) You forgot to put on your armor

You'll negate far more damage than you take when you're Dust Trap ISN'T interrupted.

You really need to stop nit-picking dude; i.e.:

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

This is true of some groups, but not all. You don't always have to use this route, though it is the method for UW trapping.

When in the hell would you agro something and THEN Trap in a TRAP GROUP? Just shut up.

SnipiousMax · Jun 26, 2006, 02:36 PM // 14:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnightmythx

Mindless? I got nothing to reply against that kind of ignorance. If you understood programming code like I do then I would elaborate but I wont even bother.

If you are refering to the same incredibly complex and sophisticated code that powers the Healer Henchmen... Then I feel perfectly justified saying that they are mindless!

AI healing is spastic at best. 8 dps, is not going to break a monk that is having to deal with 40 dps from a warrior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnightmythx

Most people kill the monks first? Most people don't know how to use their aggro bubble.

And that's a great reason to ignore the monk.

XvArchonvX · Jun 26, 2006, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

I'm tired of this argument. If you're putting stress on your Monks with my build, either:

A) Your Monks are worse than the henchie Monks
-or-
B) You forgot to put on your armor

You'll negate far more damage than you take when you're Dust Trap ISN'T interrupted.

You really need to stop nit-picking dude; i.e.:

I fail to see monks being as infallible as you. I will disagree with you in that the only person responsible for helping keep the party alive as being the monk. I think that is a shortsighted statement and will leave it at that.

If Dust Trap is interupted there is still the ability to drop it again faster than in a trappers focus group. Even if it is not, the amount of damage taken by someone using a defensive stance is still less. Lets take a 20 second scenario, since this is generally how long you will have to wait inbetween dropping dust traps in both builds. In the Trapper's Focus build, your enemies are blind for 7 seconds. This means that 7 out of 20 seconds or 35% of the time you are not taking damage by nearby enemies. During that 7 seconds however you are still taking ranged attack damage and the remaining 65% of the time you are taking all damage. In the Oath Shot build, for that whole 20 seconds you take damage only 25% of the time from all distances. If the Dust Trap is not interupted then you only take 25% damage from all distances 65% of the time.

My only reasoning was to say that Oath Shot is a legitamate trapping build. I found a false statement by you when you said that a Trapper's Focus build is better "anyday"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

When in the hell would you agro something and THEN Trap in a TRAP GROUP? Just shut up.

When the enemies approach in a staggered fashion and are not killed all at once by the first round of traps.

Admittedly trap groups almost never occur except in UW trapping groups.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Just shut up.

I don't see why you continually become angry and start making attacks at me just because I disagree with you. I have not cussed at you, said any of your builds were worthless, nor tried in any manner to suppress your free ability to discuss topics at hand. If you would relax and simply reply with any disagreements in a calm mature fashion I would appreciate it.

AndrewAtHome · Jun 26, 2006, 07:01 PM // 19:01

I'm basing my new ranger's "do everything" PvE build on Sha's ideal build. It's been working very well so far but I just need to finalise what skills I shall continue to use.

Here's my desired skill bar:

1) [interrupt]
2) [interrupt or bow attack]
3) [bow attack]
4) Kindle arrows [or other prep?]
5) Mend ailment
6) Troll unguent
7) Storm chaser
8) Rebirth

I'm only in maguuma so I don't have the ideal skills for the first 3 slots yet, and I'm looking for suggestions. So what is the best selection to use?

Also, is there a prep which deals poison? I found a nice poisonous bow (using my ele), which I'd like to use.

xnightmythx · Jun 26, 2006, 07:35 PM // 19:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

If you are refering to the same incredibly complex and sophisticated code that powers the Healer Henchmen... Then I feel perfectly justified saying that they are mindless!

While I agree with our "henchmen" being mindless, they are 180 degrees different than the AI monks that the enemy has. The code for our henchi monks has to deal with a human factor. Human factor has unpredictability. Hence our Monks seem Mindless most of the time. Even then, the code is much different than that of the enemy code. The enemy is calculating and precise. To call them mindless or stupid is ridiculous. They are far from that.
If the programmer chose to turn up the codes degree of difficulty, I guarantee you we would not stand a chance at being alive for more than a few minutes. Because the code has been set at a level that offers challenging game play while providing us with minimal frustration, Degen has been placed there for a purpose. Like I said before, its purpose is to burden the enemy and his monks. Degen is a continual degradation of their health, which allows you to exploit other targets at the same time that degen is doing its thing in the background. Thus making killing actually faster.
You call this worthless? Come on bro, please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

AI healing is spastic at best. 8 dps, is not going to break a monk that is having to deal with 40 dps from a warrior.

You are not looking at the bigger picture. 8dps + 8dps * X amount of enemy that need healing, = X amount of energy that the monk is burdoned with;ON top of your little warrior causing havoc. This equals faster killing. Again how can you say its worthless? You are suggesting that every team is an UBER killing machine and therefore any degen is a waste of time. When in fact PUGS suck and degen is a great balance for their lack of skill and or inexperience. Thats why it is not worthless.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

And that's a great reason to ignore the monk.

You lost me. Maybe you missunderstood my sarcasm. I meant that most people dont know the basics of the game, let alone the strategy you were suggesting about killing the monk first.

SnipiousMax · Jun 26, 2006, 08:20 PM // 20:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnightmythx

The enemy is calculating and precise. To call them mindless or stupid is ridiculous.

You call stopping in the middle of an engagement to cast Retribution precise? My mindless comment was directed more at the fact that they will cast spells that have little to no impact on what's going on in the moment. Yes their response is faster than that of a human player. But with the few times they're brilliant, they've many many times they're not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnightmythx

Degen has been placed there for a purpose. Like I said before, its purpose is to burden the enemy and his monks. Degen is a continual degradation of their health, which allows you to exploit other targets at the same time that degen is doing its thing in the background. Thus making killing actually faster.

See and this is the point I'm not agreeing on. Were battles longer, maybe. But I don't like tab-spacing through the mob poisoning them, when one or two AoE's will easily outdamage anything I've done. I understand the reasoning and the concept, what I question is the need. I personally feel that since the Ranger doesn't shine as a damage dealer, that I'd better help the group by concentrating on other functions. Interrupting a very damaging AoE for instance is a big load off my monks. Dropping a quick cheap attack skill to help my warrior finish off a monk, means that the healing stops altogether. There are any number of functions I could take up and work with, that would help my team out more than trying to spread DPS. While it could be argued that I can do all that AND keep poisoning, it comes down how effective you are doing the thing that is MOST helpful.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnightmythx

You are suggesting that every team is an UBER killing machine and therefore any degen is a waste of time. When in fact PUGS suck and degen is a great balance for their lack of skill and or inexperience. Thats why it is not worthless.

That's a better arguement. And if you were in a very piecemeal team, one where damage was very bleak, then maybe it'd be more worthwhile... But then again, if damage is scarce, your going to have to focus everything the team's got to kill anything.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnightmythx

You lost me. Maybe you missunderstood my sarcasm. I meant that most people dont know the basics of the game, let alone the strategy you were suggesting about killing the monk first.

I was being snappy.

But it's the work of a moment to convince a decent gamer to do something intellegent.... But then again, there are those groups.

Personally, I think I'm more effective doing other things, but I hardly think bad of people that use poison. I always carry it when I know I'm fighting a particular nasty boss. And I use in PvP without question. Only thing I question is it's general use in everyday PvE. Worthless was a bit strong, 'less effective' is more descriptive of my opinion.

xnightmythx · Jun 26, 2006, 08:56 PM // 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Worthless was a bit strong, 'less effective' is more descriptive of my opinion.

That's correct. Now we agree.