Curse

XvArchonvX · Jun 24, 2006, 12:50 AM // 00:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by sha noran

Your traps (not counting Dust) recharge faster than 20 seconds anyway, with Serpant's Quickness.

I'm a little late in replying to this, but Serpent's Quickness is a stance. Therefore you can't use any stance with Serpent's Quickness activated unless you want to cancel out the effect of SQ. It also has a maximum effect of about 30 seconds out of a 45 second recharge, meaning that you won't always get the effect of it.

If you are trapping then pulling such as when farming, sure SQ is fine and you shouldn't need any skill for evasion and Oath Shot is not appropriate since you would aggro enemies just to recharge your traps. However if you are trapping mid battle then the inability to use a stance will really hurt. Trappers focus would be ok to use with this since it is a prep, but you will have no defense while being attacked unless you have somehow found some way to fit some awesome enchantments into your skill bar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnightmythx

Sha’s Conjure Barrage Build:
-Savage Shot
-Penetrating Attack
-Barrage {Elite}
-Conjure <Element>
-Troll Unguent
-<Fun Ele Skill>
-Storm Chaser
-Ranger Variable

Im going to do UW tonight with a group of friends. This is the build I have chosen to take. The Ranger Variable will certainly be Rez. This will be my first time in UW that I am not going as a trapper. 109 ectos collected and I never fired a single arrow, lol.

Any suggestions? Or do you guys recommend another build?

Thx Guys.

I'm a lot like you in that I've never used a ranger in UW unless as a trapper, so I'm not 100% sure what to reccomend, but throw dirt might be kinda handy at least at the beggining with the Aataxes (sp?). As for the rest, I think it really depends on how your party is built. If you have a MM a pet might be nice as an extra corpse. You may consider keeping a trapper build even if your group isn't going to do the same, but you may want to mod it to be a bit more battle ready. Sha might not like me suggesting this, but perhaps an oath shot trapper build might be good. However you will probably be fine with a straight conjure barrage build such as the one Sha posted.

Lasher Dragon · Jun 24, 2006, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnightmythx

These statements are incorrect.

Guys I just went to Isle of the nameless and tried to shoot the Master of enchantments guy who runs around like a mad man. I loaded Penetrating Shot, Savage Shot and Determined Shot. Determined Shot does what I remember it doing, if Savage or Penetrating is used and you miss when you use Determined it recharges both of the other 2 skills and Determined as well! Its great! I think you guys miss interpreted the skill definition.

You are completely correct. I could have sworn I tried this skill out when I first got it, however long ago that was, and I seemed to remember it doing what I described. Perhaps I got confused with something else... huh, I wonder - does it recharge Pet Attacks? I imagine it would, but even then are there any pet attacks with a long enough recharge to make it worth bringing?
The only attack I personally can think of that I'd like to recharge faster is Distracting Shot, but I usually run Oath Shot anyway... oh hey... Wonder if it will recharge Oath Shot? Too bad my computer isn't working.

Sha Noran · Jun 24, 2006, 08:51 AM // 08:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasher Dragon

You are completely correct. I could have sworn I tried this skill out when I first got it, however long ago that was, and I seemed to remember it doing what I described.

Same. I wonder if they changed it; I assumed and seem to remember testing that it was much like the non-elite version of Oath Shot. Hmm... I'll certainly be dropping that off my useless skill list. Thanks for poiting that out xnightmythx.

XvArchonvX: I'm tired of arguing with you about running Oath Shot with a Trapper build. Trapper's Focus and Serpant's Quickness are better. End of debate. I'm not going to argue about it anymore. You're just wrong. You're going to flame me now for just saying your wrong without proof, but I've typed extensive posts and rebuttals to you arguing my point and obviously your opinion isn't going to change. Run your shit build if you want, but your main concern seems to be that you'll be taking too much damage. How about instead of ruining your build to avoid a little damage, you get a Monk with more on his/her bar than grey boxes. Like Alesia. Once you put down your Dust Trap, the damage goes away ANYWAY.

XvArchonvX and Lasher Dragon: I corrected you're confusion regarding my statements on Poison and then went on to show that my build was better, and you changed the subject and said it wasn't about dealing damage. If you're running Conditions like Poison or Bleeding, you're running Conditions that cause damage, and therefore, you ARE a damage dealer. I'm tired of being told what a moron I am because of proving that I'm dealing more damage than you.

If you want Blind, the best source is an Elementalist, actually. If you want snares to protect your backline casters, again, Elementalists are better. That's why flagrunners in high end GvG are no longer Cripshot Rangers and are now, instead, played by Elementalists with Blinding Flash and Water Magic snares.

SnipiousMax: My arguments are primarily focused on PvE, but you are correct. Apply Poison is lightyears ahead of Poison Arrow in PvP because the teams you'll be facing in PvP very likely have CONDITION REMOVAL.

This brings me back to my points regarding Poison Arrow in PvE. It's more energy effectient because you DON'T HAVE TO USE IT ALL THE TIME. You don't NEED to reapply the Condition before it's duration is up, because that's a WASTE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Sha might not like me suggesting this, but perhaps an oath shot trapper build might be good. However you will probably be fine with a straight conjure barrage build such as the one Sha posted.

No, I actually really don't like you giving stupid answers to questions people ask on MY thread. Make your own guide if you think you have such a grand understanding of Ranger.

xnightmythx: Yes, a Conjure Barrage build would be good, however instead, I would strongly suggest instead a Judges Insight Barrage build. In the majority of the places in the Underworld, it is almost necessary that you have a single tank with all the agro. Running a JI Barrage build allows you to have your secondary as Monk, allowing for the skill Essence Bond. Keeping this on the tank will keep your Energy full or near to it the whole way. Also, of course, running /Mo allows you to bring a hard rez, such as Rebirth. You will likely find that this will come in handy after a long UW run. :-)

XvArchonvX · Jun 24, 2006, 01:23 PM // 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Same. I wonder if they changed it; I assumed and seem to remember testing that it was much like the non-elite version of Oath Shot. Hmm... I'll certainly be dropping that off my useless skill list. Thanks for poiting that out xnightmythx.

This is a skill I also never put in my skill bar since I never read the description right. I'm not sure I will now since the skill recharge doesn't seem to be reliable and the long recharge of the skill itself could be a bit hard to get used to if you never miss, but I certainly won't dismiss this skill like I used to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

XvArchonvX: I'm tired of arguing with you about running Oath Shot with a Trapper build. Trapper's Focus and Serpant's Quickness are better. End of debate. I'm not going to argue about it anymore. You're just wrong. You're going to flame me now for just saying your wrong without proof, but I've typed extensive posts and rebuttals to you arguing my point and obviously your opinion isn't going to change. Run your shit build if you want, but your main concern seems to be that you'll be taking too much damage. How about instead of ruining your build to avoid a little damage, you get a Monk with more on his/her bar than grey boxes. Like Alesia. Once you put down your Dust Trap, the damage goes away ANYWAY.

First of all, take a deep breath I'm not here to flame you. I would appreciate it if you toned down a bit however. I have not called any of your builds wrong, nor cussed once at you and I would hope that you could give me the same respect. I'm not out here to throw mud, but if I ever go against you in PvE I might throw a little dirt. ~.^

Here's how most civilized disputes go (at least the ones that end up providing any useful conveyance of information for those participating as well as listening). One person makes a point. The next person then gives a counter example and/or rebuttal. The first person then replies taking into account the information that was given as a counter example and either points out a flaw or gives another counter example, etc.

This is how the debate generally preceeded until now when you found it not necessary to present any more arguments. That is fine, I think I have explained my counter examples thoroughly and will leave them for those who are interested to draw conclusions of their own. As for myself I don't see the build useful everywhere, but I would not discount it as easily as you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

XvArchonvX and Lasher Dragon: I corrected you're confusion regarding my statements on Poison and then went on to show that my build was better, and you changed the subject and said it wasn't about dealing damage. If you're running Conditions like Poison or Bleeding, you're running Conditions that cause damage, and therefore, you ARE a damage dealer. I'm tired of being told what a moron I am because of proving that I'm dealing more damage than you.

Here was my reply to your previous point:

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

If you think that causing enemies to scurry is always a bad idea then I think you seriously need to go back and learn how to use it to your advantage. The key to this build is knowing when and where to use skills like flame trap.

If there are enemies grouped all around your tank, running up to drop a flame trap at them is foolish because first of all the enemies may be drawn to you simply by you getting close enough to where they can find an enemy with lower armor AL. Secondly as you stated, breaking good aggro on a warrior is foolish.

The smart way to use this build is to either a) sprint well ahead of your tank and drop a flame trap then run back behind the tank(this is only wise when going against enemies that will not snare you with slow spells or cause enough damage from spells to kill you) or b) find an enemy that has broken past your tank and blind him, then drop a flame trap at his feet to send him running away.

In a perfect game, the enemies will always attack nothing but the warrior, but the reality is that this will only happen if there are no enemies within range with lower armor AL. Since the monks need to get close enough to heal and casters need to get close enough to cast, enemies will often break from the warrior and go for softer targets.

And here was my next statement regaurding another related subject:

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

To sum this up, I think the major source of our disagreement is as follows. I don't see rangers as a profession that is best suited simply dealing direct damage. I believe that casters and tanks can deal often deal larger amounts of damage than a ranger can depending on the builds used of course. Rangers however are given a much more diverse gift of power. They can interupt, and shutdown enemies to reduce the damage they deliver while dealing a decent amount of damage themselves. I believe that to a lesser degree of course, the ranger to conditions is much like the mesmer is to hexes.

I respect that you took so much time to make the guide that you did and believe that there are a lot of good tips that you gave that will help many others with their use of their rangers. However I do ask that you keep an open mind to other's opinions. Even though you have had your success with your builds and stragedies does not mean that others have not had the same with theirs.

This was not meant to change the subject. We have been discussing many subjects at once and I made no intention of dropping or trying to evade one just because I brought up another. If you have a counter example or rebuttal to my reply, I am still free to hear it if you would like to share.

As for your point about my build being a damage dealer, yes, it is. However that is not all it is. The focus is on having flexibility. You can help the team deal damage, but if the folks in the back lines need help, there is also defense at hand to assist. If your party starts dying, Escape is there to help you get back and rez the team back to life so that a mistake in a party does not cause it to completely fail a mission. If the only point of my build was to deal damage, then measurement of damage alone would suffice to judge it's efficiency and yours would be more suitable. However my point was that was not how I was judging my build. I did make points to show that there was a respectible amount of damage being done in the form of degen, but that was not meant to show that the damage was superior to yours. If you find a place where I said it did more damage than your build, I would be more than willing to go back and correct myself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

If you want Blind, the best source is an Elementalist, actually. If you want snares to protect your backline casters, again, Elementalists are better. That's why flagrunners in high end GvG are no longer Cripshot Rangers and are now, instead, played by Elementalists with Blinding Flash and Water Magic snares.

This is true that elementalists do perform this task very well and arguably better than rangers since nerfs to ranger skills. There really aren't as many rangers in PvP forms such as GvG or HoH anymore. However rangers do still come in second place in this as well as first in interupting abilities imo. I'm not sure if this statement was intended to be a counter example in your defense however since you made no mention of a way that a ranger could out damage these other classes. I would be interested in hearing this if it is something you believe. I only assume this since your primary method of judging many skills and builds seems to be largely held on the damage output. If I read this logic correctly, would it not then be wise to reccomend one choose a different profession rather than improve their build to something that is still lesser in damage output to other professions at best?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

This brings me back to my points regarding Poison Arrow in PvE. It's more energy effectient because you DON'T HAVE TO USE IT ALL THE TIME. You don't NEED to reapply the Condition before it's duration is up, because that's a WASTE.

Your point has been heard and if apply poison was only being used against one target, then I would agree with you. However my uses of the skill are different than this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

No, I actually really don't like you giving stupid answers to questions people ask on MY thread. Make your own guide if you think you have such a grand understanding of Ranger.

If you see flaws in my reasoning you are always free to give a counter example or ignore it. Unfortunately I have yet to hear of www.GuildWarsGuru.com giving you sole rights to any forum space and therefore come about the conclusion that as long as I follow the specified rules upon posting in forums, I am free to post as I please.

I don't claim to be any type of ranger grand master, but I do have 3 accounts with 9 lvl 20 ascended characters (only 3 of which are Canthan ascended characters) and have played for almost a year now (I should get a b-day present for my first character, my ranger, any day now). This however means little since the people who are knowledgeable enough to write guides even miss things or are wrong from time to time (yes, I know, I was just as wrong about the determined shot thing as you were). My point is that I am not trying to step on anyone's toes or present myself as something of greatness just because I think I have some information or opinions that others may be interested in.

Lasher Dragon · Jun 24, 2006, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

XvArchonvX and Lasher Dragon: I corrected you're confusion regarding my statements on Poison and then went on to show that my build was better, and you changed the subject and said it wasn't about dealing damage. If you're running Conditions like Poison or Bleeding, you're running Conditions that cause damage, and therefore, you ARE a damage dealer. I'm tired of being told what a moron I am because of proving that I'm dealing more damage than you.

No one is calling you a moron - you are the one that seems to revert to flames when someone disagrees with you. Anyway, an Oath Shot trapper puts out more damage than most, if not all of your builds.

Sha Noran · Jun 24, 2006, 01:56 PM // 13:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

You can help the team deal damage, but if the folks in the back lines need help, there is also defense at hand to assist.

In my final edit of your build, I suggested that you continue to bring Throw Dirt, as you have been, and to switch out Flame Trap to Barbed Trap. If a Caster has heavy agro on them, they should kite the damage to something that can tank it, i.e. a Warrior, or you. Barbed Trap throws some Cripple in the mix, allowing for your Casters to kite with ease. Flame Trap just causes the monsters to split up and run around, most likely just agroing other casters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

If your party starts dying, Escape is there to help you get back and rez the team back to life so that a mistake in a party does not cause it to completely fail a mission.

That's why you have Storm Chaser, which is a better option than wasting your Elite on Escape.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Your point has been heard and if apply poison was only being used against one target, then I would agree with you. However my uses of the skill are different than this.

You're not even reading what I post. I posted a specific example with the numbers right out there for you of why my Poison Arrow build is better and more effecient at Poisoning a GROUP of enemies than you Apply Poison build.

Here's the quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Let's assume 0 expertise, versus 5 enemies, just to make these numbers easy:

Your build uses Apply Poison as a prep so that every shot Poisons your opponent, then spreads this poison "quickly" by Savage Shotting around the group.

Apply Poison (15e)+ Savage Shots(x5) (50e)= 65 Energy

My build uses Kindle Arrows as a prep so that each shot deals a bit of extra damage, then uses Poison Arrow to spread some degen around the group.

Kindle Arrows (5e)+ Poison Arrow(x5) (25e)= 30 Energy.

The numbers arent lying. You say that you're build is too energy intensive to use Penetrating Attack, and it's your own fault.

Since you seem to think Savage is so great at spreading the Poison "quickly", let's also look at numbers as far as time spent to Poison 5 seperate enemies with the two builds.

You're build:

Apply Poison (2 Seconds)+Savage Shot(x5) (25 Seconds)= 27 Seconds

My build:

Kindle Arrows (2 Seconds)+Poison Arrow(x5) (5 Seconds)= 7 Seconds

If you want your arrows to move faster, use Read The Wind, don't spam Savage Shot.

I don't know why you're even trying to argue about this anymore. Your build is not as effecient. I assumed that by posting it in my thread, you were looking to see if I had any suggestions for you or your build. I gave them, and you just wanted to explain why your build is better. I have argued the point, you won't be swayed. Ok, use your build then. It doesn't matter to me really, I was just trying to help you out.

EDIT: Lasher Dragon: You posted as I did.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasher Dragon

No one is calling you a moron - you are the one that seems to revert to flames when someone disagrees with you. Anyway, an Oath Shot trapper puts out more damage than most, if not all of your builds.

An Oath Shot Trapper most certainly does not out damage most of my builds. That's simply a stupid thing to say. On the most simple comparative scale, my Trapper's Focus build outdamages an Oath Shot Trappper anyday.

Oath Shot+evasive stances= interrupted 25% of the time, no decreased recharge on skills (other than through Oath Shot, which isn't effective over time because Oath Shot itself has the same recharge as most Traps, 20 seconds, leaving you waiting for Oath Shot to recharge just the same as you would be waiting for your traps to recharge)

Trapper's Focus+Serpent's Quickness= no interruption, 33% decresed recharge on skills 66% of the time

I don't know why you're so in love with Oath Shot. It's total shit in a team build, other than for Spirit Spam. Sorry to be the one to break it to you.

Public Restrooms · Jun 24, 2006, 02:02 PM // 14:02

So...Determined Shot is like a mini-version of Oath Shot?

Lasher Dragon · Jun 24, 2006, 02:14 PM // 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

An Oath Shot Trapper most certainly does not out damage most of my builds. That's simply a stupid thing to say. On the most simple comparative scale, my Trapper's Focus build outdamages an Oath Shot Trappper anyday.

Oath Shot+evasive stances= interrupted 25% of the time, no decreased recharge on skills (other than through Oath Shot, which isn't effective over time because Oath Shot itself has the same recharge as most Traps, 20 seconds, leaving you waiting for Oath Shot to recharge just the same as you would be waiting for your traps to recharge)

Trapper's Focus+Serpent's Quickness= no interruption, 33% decresed recharge on skills 66% of the time.

Sure, Trapper's Focus is nice, and it's lovely getting quicker skill recharge with Serpent's, but you have no defenses. You will be leaning very heavily on your monk. I can be in Whirling pretty much the entire combat, no need to kite. With the Oath Shot build, you leave the monk free to focus on the other members of the party, while also putting out crazy damage and degen.

Sha Noran · Jun 24, 2006, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasher Dragon

Anyway, an Oath Shot trapper puts out more damage than most, if not all of your builds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasher Dragon

Sure, Trapper's Focus is nice, and it's lovely getting quicker skill recharge with Serpent's, but you have no defenses.

Wow, that's what I'm talking about changing the subject. You specifically said you dealt more damage, I proved you wrong, you brought up defense.

Using Healing Spring in the middle of the rest of your Traps gives you a very respectable and dependable heal, taking some of the pressure off of your Monks. Besides that, try using Dust Trap as soon as you have the agro on you. Once all of your attackers are Blind, the damage GOES AWAY. No need for stances if all of your attackers are Blind anyway.

Lasher Dragon · Jun 24, 2006, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Wow, that's what I'm talking about changing the subject. You specifically said you dealt more damage, I proved you wrong, you brought up defense.

Using Healing Spring in the middle of the rest of your Traps gives you a very respectable and dependable heal, taking some of the pressure off of your Monks. Besides that, try using Dust Trap as soon as you have the agro on you. Once all of your attackers are Blind, the damage GOES AWAY. No need for stances if all of your attackers are Blind anyway.

I am NOT changing the subject. Your SQ/Trapper's Focus trapper build, in a perfect world, will put out more damage than an Oath Shot trapper build. Notice I said " Most, if not all" - ok, so that build has the potential to outdamage an Oath Shot trapper build, assuming you live long enough.
As for the Dust Trap issue, I don't know how long you've been trapping, but in my experience you cannot rely completely on a Dust Trap to prevent damage. For one, they nerfed the hell out of the blind duration. Ranged attackers outside of the Dust AoE will still nail your ass to the wall. If by chance an enemy gets a Disrupting Chop/Shot on your Dust Trap, you are just screwed, no two ways about it.

Edit: Actually, no, I still think Oath Shot trapper build will do more damage than your New School trapper build. Why? You only have 12 WS.

Sha Noran · Jun 24, 2006, 03:28 PM // 15:28

Actually you did change the argument. You said you could out damage me, you're wrong and I proved so (I don't care what you THINK, you're wrong), and then you changed and said "but... but... you have no defense!!11one". I told you how I did have defense, and now you say I don't. If you're Monks can't handle another Ranger shooting you, it's not your fault. How about if Ranger's are killing you in your hench groups, bring Alesia instead of Little Thom. You could also try wearing armor.

I cannot possibly understand how you have too little defense to survive. I'm not going to argue about it, you're simply wrong. I'm not going to get into a pissing contest about what is simply a futile argument.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Public Restrooms

So...Determined Shot is like a mini-version of Oath Shot?

Not exactly; Determined Shot only recharges your other attack skills, and only when you miss. I only compared the two because of the slight similarity, and the fact that many Elites are Elite versions of similar non-Elite skills (i.e. Ice Spear/Water Trident).

Lasher Dragon · Jun 24, 2006, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Actually you did change the argument. You said you could out damage me, you're wrong and I proved so (I don't care what you THINK, you're wrong), and then you changed and said "but... but... you have no defense!!11one". I told you how I did have defense, and now you say I don't. If you're Monks can't handle another Ranger shooting you, it's not your fault. How about if Ranger's are killing you in your hench groups, bring Alesia instead of Little Thom. You could also try wearing armor.

With only 12 WS, not only will I out damage you, but I will out heal, out blind, out bleed, out burn, out cripple, and out survive you.

You put points in BM for 1 skill - Viper's Nest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

NEVER put points into an attribute just to use ONE skill out of that attribute. Find another skill in a different attribute to use, then consolidate your points. A classic example of this is Tiger's Fury. People put points into beast mastery for this skill when they could easily replace it with Lightning Relfexes and consolidate their points.

GG

xnightmythx · Jun 24, 2006, 03:46 PM // 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasher Dragon

huh, I wonder - does it recharge Pet Attacks? I imagine it would, but even then are there any pet attacks with a long enough recharge to make it worth bringing?

No it does not. I just tried it at the isles. It seems to only recharge "your" attacks, and not "his" attacks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lasher Dragon

The only attack I personally can think of that I'd like to recharge faster is Distracting Shot, but I usually run Oath Shot anyway... oh hey... Wonder if it will recharge Oath Shot? Too bad my computer isn't working.

Yes it recharges Oath Shot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SHA

Same. I wonder if they changed it; I assumed and seem to remember testing that it was much like the non-elite version of Oath Shot. Hmm... I'll certainly be dropping that off my useless skill list. Thanks for poiting that out xnightmythx.

No problem. Its the least I could do considering all the hard work you have done.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SHA

xnightmythx: Yes, a Conjure Barrage build would be good, however instead, I would strongly suggest instead a Judges Insight Barrage build. In the majority of the places in the Underworld, it is almost necessary that you have a single tank with all the agro. Running a JI Barrage build allows you to have your secondary as Monk, allowing for the skill Essence Bond. Keeping this on the tank will keep your Energy full or near to it the whole way. Also, of course, running /Mo allows you to bring a hard rez, such as Rebirth. You will likely find that this will come in handy after a long UW run. :-)

Last night the UW trip when great!(kinda) I used the conjure fire build. Although it worked awesome, I kept wishing I would have gone Mo just for rebirth, lol. As it was, I was the only one who managed not to die during the 3 hour trip. Man that place is HUGE! Unfortunately I had to use my rez signet on our Monk at about the 3 hour mark. Shortly after that they all died again and I found myself with no Rez. I love rebirth just for that reason. The unfortunate part was everyone but me got ecto.

To be honest it usually doesn't matter to me, but considering my game was ON last night I thought the least I would deserve was an ecto, or a gold drop. I got nothing. Not even with my keys. Actually this trip cost me more than anything cause I had to give up like 6 CC lol. But the experience was worth it. Next time I go, I will try the JI Barrage build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

This is a skill I also never put in my skill bar since I never read the description right. I'm not sure I will now since the skill recharge doesn't seem to be reliable and the long recharge of the skill itself could be a bit hard to get used to if you never miss, but I certainly won't dismiss this skill like I used to.

Might be a good skill to take along with Oath Shot against something like Jade Bows who use that annoying ranger skill named Whirling Defense, lol

Actually if you take Distracting Shot which has 10 sec recharge and enemy pulls the WD trick it makes it a great opportunity to exploit this skill, and reset DS for the next available interrupt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Public Restrooms

So...Determined Shot is like a mini-version of Oath Shot?

*edit* Sha beat me to it! Doggone eastern time! lol
Kinda, it has to "miss" in order to recharge you other attack skills. Also unlike Oath, there is no downside to this skill. If it hits, and your Marksmanship attributes are set high it does decent damage for a skill that only takes 5 energy, and if it misses the it recharges all of your attack skill! Sweet!

Sha Noran · Jun 24, 2006, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Lasher Dragon: Have fun with playing an Oath Shot trapper, but anyone who TRIES BOTH will discover that mine is far superior. I'm sorry you're wrong but you are. Oath Shot is just not as good a skill for trapping anymore with the release of Factions; Trapper's Focus is better for trapping in a group environment.

Specing into Beast Mastery for the Poison from Viper's is well worth it, but you are more interested in nit-picking my guide than anything else so yes, as you said, GG.

xnightmythx: Yes, I believe you will find the Judges Insight build to be much better, for not only the rez but for e-management. Essence Bond is ftw.

SnipiousMax · Jun 24, 2006, 08:48 PM // 20:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Lasher Dragon: Have fun with playing an Oath Shot trapper, but anyone who TRIES BOTH will discover that mine is far superior. I'm sorry you're wrong but you are. Oath Shot is just not as good a skill for trapping anymore with the release of Factions; Trapper's Focus is better for trapping in a group environment.

Specing into Beast Mastery for the Poison from Viper's is well worth it, but you are more interested in nit-picking my guide than anything else so yes, as you said, GG.

I have tried both elites, Oath shot is better. Trapper's Focus is a waste of an elite slot.

Poison Arrow is an elite that does the same thing as a non elite skill. I frankly don't think it's worth it's spot regardless of talk of numbers or efficiency. Poison is frankly worthless in PvE to begin with, unless you are fighting a boss. Why waste an elite on something that your really not getting much out of? Mobs die quick enough as it is, the degen really doesn't have time to deal enough damage to bother. Same goes for Viper's Nest, it is not worth bringing this skill unless you have more than one skill in beastmastery that your bringing. Only place I can see this being useful is UW trapping to finish off retreating Aataxes.

Sha Noran · Jun 24, 2006, 09:02 PM // 21:02

You have an obvious disdain for PvE anyway, so whatever. Saying Trapper's Focus is a waste of an Elite slot is ingnorant.

xnightmythx · Jun 24, 2006, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Poison is frankly worthless in PvE to begin with, unless you are fighting a boss.

Poison is a great degen in PvE. In fact,

Bleeding - health degeneration of 3
Poisoned - health degeneration of 4
Disease - health degeneration of 4
Burning - health degeneration of 7

A Poisoned character becomes infected by a poison that reduces health over time. An afflicted character suffers -4 health degeneration (8 hit points) per second, for the duration of the skills used against him/her. Poisoned characters are easily spotted by the green skull that orbits above their head, trailing a green mist.

Thats right out of Guildwarswiki. How is this worthless? If anything it looks like bleeding may be the candidate of such an ignorant comment. I'm not flaming bro, but your comment is ignorant. Personally as a Ranger I have used poison many a time and it was the one factor that gave our team the winning edge. As with any degen, first, it has to be used correctly, and second you will know when that is because you will be able to switch targets while the previous is still alive but afflicted for those last 5 seconds of his digital life. Worthless? I think not.

Heres some education for ya.
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Poisoned

SnipiousMax · Jun 25, 2006, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Quote:

You have an obvious disdain for PvE anyway, so whatever. Saying Trapper's Focus is a waste of an Elite slot is ingnorant.

Obvious disdain for PvE?

Trapper's focus is a waste, because it's effect can be replicated by non-elite skills that you would bring anyway. Oath Shot provides for a stronger well rounded build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by xnightmythx

How is this worthless?

Degen is worthless because it kills much too slowly, especially against higher level mobs. It's worthwhile to use against bosses because it counter's their natural health regen. Against normal mindless mobs its a wasted effort, because everything dies quick enough that degen does not have enough time to deal a significant amount of damage. Believe what you will, refrence all you want, but in practice poison does not kill quickly enough to be much help in PvE. Were you solo... It would be a different story. But any edge it gives your group over another group is imagined.

XvArchonvX · Jun 25, 2006, 01:35 AM // 01:35

Wow a lot has been posted since I've been at work. Let's get started:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

In my final edit of your build, I suggested that you continue to bring Throw Dirt, as you have been, and to switch out Flame Trap to Barbed Trap. If a Caster has heavy agro on them, they should kite the damage to something that can tank it, i.e. a Warrior, or you. Barbed Trap throws some Cripple in the mix, allowing for your Casters to kite with ease. Flame Trap just causes the monsters to split up and run around, most likely just agroing other casters.

That's why you have Storm Chaser, which is a better option than wasting your Elite on Escape.

You're not even reading what I post. I posted a specific example with the numbers right out there for you of why my Poison Arrow build is better and more effecient at Poisoning a GROUP of enemies than you Apply Poison build.

Here's the quote:

Since you seem to think Savage is so great at spreading the Poison "quickly", let's also look at numbers as far as time spent to Poison 5 seperate enemies with the two builds.

You're build:

Apply Poison (2 Seconds)+Savage Shot(x5) (25 Seconds)= 27 Seconds

My build:

Kindle Arrows (2 Seconds)+Poison Arrow(x5) (5 Seconds)= 7 Seconds

If you want your arrows to move faster, use Read The Wind, don't spam Savage Shot.

I don't know why you're even trying to argue about this anymore. Your build is not as effecient. I assumed that by posting it in my thread, you were looking to see if I had any suggestions for you or your build. I gave them, and you just wanted to explain why your build is better. I have argued the point, you won't be swayed. Ok, use your build then. It doesn't matter to me really, I was just trying to help you out.

ok, maybe if I make this simpler you will understand:

Poison shot = No Escape

No Escape = no evasion to be able to trap and no run skill

Only compensation for this = evasion stance + running stance = 2 skills

2 skill + 7 skills = 9

I welcome any counter examples you may be able to provide that can handle the tasks my build is meant.

Your argument against making enemies run from AoE damage reminds me of the huge outcry that came from the update that put that effect in place. while you can continue to see this effect as only negative, I would suggest that you observe the enemies behavior and learn to put this effect to your advantage. Understanding your enemies allows you to control them.

I believe your specific argument was that using the AoE effect would make enemies run and aggro enemies. If the trap was laid at the edge of your group where ideally the tank was holding aggro, this would be true. However the correct use of a trap to obtain the result I describe is to drop it at the feet of the casters. AoE damage causes enemies to generally run the full extent of about half an aggro circle to a whole one. Since your allies are spread out wider than this (unless you can get them to stand on eachother's heads) the collective aggro bubble of your group is greater than this, thus the enemies, when they reach the extent of their run, re-target and attack. While it is possible for them to attack the same enemy that you just made them run from, their damage potential was decreased due both in part by their running instead of fighting as well as their decreased health from the trap itself. If they are still kicking, then Throw Dirt comes into play. Since it has the long recharge time, it is best reserved as a backup for situations such as these.

The reasoning against barbed trap as stated before was partially because it crippled the enemy. I say this because the fleeing is limited chronologically so distance is not a factor. What this means is that when they run, they don't go as far. Because of this, barbed trap may be a good skill for those who wish to use a trap for the purpose I describe if they are not well adjusted to enemy behavior and want to make as sure as possible that the enemy does not flee farther than desired. However once enemy behavior is learned, it is possible to use Flame trap to give greater damage in combination with Hunter's Shot and increase the likeliness of getting the enemy to target an ally other than the caster you aim to protect.

As for the use of Savage Shot, I don't think you understand my implications. Apply Poison is used before the group is aggroed. Hunter's Shot is used to aggro since enemies are generally moving in patrols. Savage shot is spammed to the closest caster and generally catches them using their first spell. If it doesn't it still gets them poisoned as quickly as possible since it takes 1/2 of a second to shoot as opposed to the seconds that a normal shot takes. Regular or Hunter's Shots are then used from then on to poison additional foes for the most part. Savage Shot is a bonus that can be used as any new enemy approaches or as a skill is used by an enemy to be interupted.

Your major flaw in your logic is that all you did was multiply recharge times. While I'm sure that would make your old math teachers happy, this assumes that I aggro, then use Apply Poison. After this I would use Savage Shot on one enemy and afterwards stand around for 5 seconds not attacking anyone until the skill recharged before firing it again. If you seriously believe this is how I use this skill you are more than welcome to join a party whenever I use my build. I am spending a lot of time on my 2nd ranger so I'm free anytime you want to join me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

An Oath Shot Trapper most certainly does not out damage most of my builds. That's simply a stupid thing to say. On the most simple comparative scale, my Trapper's Focus build outdamages an Oath Shot Trappper anyday.

Oath Shot+evasive stances= interrupted 25% of the time, no decreased recharge on skills (other than through Oath Shot, which isn't effective over time because Oath Shot itself has the same recharge as most Traps, 20 seconds, leaving you waiting for Oath Shot to recharge just the same as you would be waiting for your traps to recharge)

Trapper's Focus+Serpent's Quickness= no interruption, 33% decresed recharge on skills 66% of the time

I don't know why you're so in love with Oath Shot. It's total shit in a team build, other than for Spirit Spam. Sorry to be the one to break it to you.

I think the part that you are missing which makes me agree with Lasher in that an Oath Shot build has a greater damage potential comes from the following factor that you yourself pointed out. Yes, the recharge of Oath Shot is just as long as most traps. However if you trap, then use Oath Shot for the instant recharge, you just doubled your damage for all traps. When 20 seconds pass, you can again drop Barbed and Flame trap before using Oath Shot again, allowing you to drop Flame and Barbed trap again then also use the renewed Viper's Nest and Dust Trap.

What this translates out to is that Barbed and Flame trap can be dropped twice in a about a 20 second time frame (discounting activation times since it remains constant in both builds) and thus effectively doubles drop rate. Dust trap and Viper's Nest are recharged every 20 seconds instead of 30 which is effectively equal to giving them a 33% increased recharge time.

Now let's take into effect that ideally, 25% of the time, using Whirling Defenses, you will be interupted. This roughly interperets out to 4 (we'll give Sha the benefit of the doubt by rounding up) out of the first 14 that occur using two Oath Shots (One after the first round of traps dropped and one after Oath Shot recharges) and you have 10 traps dropped in a 48 second time period (this number comes taking into account the time it takes for all traps to be dropped at 2 seconds to drop each and also assumes that you are not interupted until the last possible second, again giving Sha the benefit of the doubt.)

With the Serpent's Quickness build, the recharge times when Serpent's Quickness is active are 13 seconds for Dust and Barbed Trap (rounding down to give Sha the benefit of the doubt again), and 20 seconds for Viper's Nest and Dust Trap. To give Sha the benefit one last time (well partially for the benefit of my head since this math is killin me), lets assume that Serpent's Quickness never ends. After the trapper begins, the first trap will recharge 15 seconds from the moment he begins to drop the first trap (assuming the first trap is Barbed or Flame trap and taking into account the 2 second cast time). 2 seconds later the next pops up (assuming this is either Barbed or Flame trap again for efficiency). 9 seconds later Viper's Nest or Dust Trap is ready to drop. 2 seconds later Viper's Nest or Dust Trap is ready to drop again. 6 seconds later Barbed or Flame trap is ready again. 2 seconds later Barbed or Flame Trap is ready again. 12 seconds later Viper's Nest or Dust Trap is ready to drop again. 2 seconds later Viper's Nest or Dust Trap is ready to drop again. (I hope someone is still following this to check my math). At this time 50 seconds have past and 11 traps have dropped.

Now lets look at this. If Sha can magically gain infinite Serpent's Quickness and infinite Trapper's Focus (I again gave him the benefit of the doubt because he only has this active 14 out of 20 seconds and must take 2 seconds to activate this) then he can lay 11 traps in 50 seconds which equals about about .22 traps per second. The Oath Shot build which only needs to worry about the 2 second shot time of Oath Shot while using a Shot Bow can drop about 10 traps per 48 seconds which averages out to about .21 traps per second.

Now in theory it looks like the Serpent's Quickness build has a .01% advantage, but realistically I don't think the the traps will always be able to be dropped when Serpent's Quickness and Trapper's Focus is active.

Another factor to take into account is that if every trap is dropped as soon as possible with again non-stop Trapper's Focus and Serpent's Quickness is staggered. This means that the damage cannot spike an enemy as an Oath Shot build can since all traps recharge at a time to be dropped one after another.

My conclusion is this, I would love to see someone measure this experiment beyond the 50 seconds that I measured this. I am in no means a math major, but I welcome anyone to point out any flaws in this. As it would appear to me though, Sha's build is equal in overall damage at best, but lacks the ability to drop traps one after another that would take out an enemy before they could be healed or simply regen life in the time periods between traps. Even if there is any overall higher rating of damage output potential in Sha's Build, it is extremely minor at best. I would hardly describe the Oath Shot build to be as inferior as Sha has.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Wow, that's what I'm talking about changing the subject. You specifically said you dealt more damage, I proved you wrong, you brought up defense.

Actually when you were first talking about someone changing the subject you were presenting that point in response to a post of mine which I explained by breaking my post into two parts that my post in fact replied a response to your initial argument while presenting a new one.

I'll give Sha the benefit of the doubt that he did change the subject, but seeing as though it was the first time to happen in this post and the subject initially "avoided" was tended to in the following post, I think we can move on.

As for Lasher's response one aspect of defense which while not directly linking that aspect to the subject at hand of damage potential, is post that came after yours clarified that defensive duration is also part of the equation of damage output.

I beleive that defense is related to damage potential since a dead ranger can't cause damage. If we look back to my previous study of both builds ability to analyze which build could drop more traps per second, defense was left out of consideration. I think we can all agree that the Oath Shot has a higher defense since it has a defensive stance while Sha's has none. I believe he mentioned that he could also bring Healing Spring to heal, however the same could be said of the Oath Shot build. This would again give the Oath Shot build more defense. Even if Healing Spring was interupted, casting it before Oath Shot would give it the chance to be cast again.

I have one last point to attend to. This one regards Lasher's statement regarding Sha's use of only 12 attributes in Wilderness Survival. For this I'll give us one more sample scenario to test out the effectiveness of attribute spreading. To do this I will present three sample cases for anylization.

For this we'll assume that for all the of these three cases our constant will be skills used, runes used on armor as well as attributes spent in Expertise. For argument's sake we'll use the skills Viper's Nest, Barbed Trap, Flame Trap and Dust Trap.

The variables in this scenario will be the attributes spent in Wilderness Survival and Beast Mastery.

The damage potential will be measured in one round of trap usage. Length of bleeding will be negated since the minimum length of bleeding would exceed 20 seconds in which case traps would ideally be used again. Damage caused by burning will also be negated since a 3 seconds of burning is constant at all attributes presented.

First Case:

Wilderness Survival: 10 + 1 + 1 = 12
Beast Mastery: 8 + 1 = 9

Damage potential of each skill for First Case:

Viper's Nest:
32 damage
14 seconds of poison x 8 damage per second = 112 damage

Barbed Trap
56 damage

Dust Trap
22 damage x 5 seconds = 110 damage

Flame Trap
27 damage

Net damage potential from Case One = 337 damage

Damage potential of each skill for Case Two:

Wilderness Survival: 11 + 1 + 1 = 13
Beast Mastery: 6 + 1 = 7

Viper's Nest:
26 damage
12 seconds of poison x 8 damage per second = 96 damage

Barbed Trap
59 damage

Dust Trap
23 damage x 5 seconds = 115 damage

Flame Trap
28 damage

Net damage potential from Case Two = 324 damage

Damage potential of each skill for Case Three:

Wilderness Survival: 12 + 1 + 1 = 14
Beast Mastery: 3 + 1 = 4

Viper's Nest:
17 damage
9 seconds of poison x 8 damage per second = 72 damage

Barbed Trap
62 damage

Dust Trap
24 damage x 5 seconds = 120 damage

Flame Trap
29 damage

Net damage potential from Case Three= 300 damage

From these three tests the maximum damage potential is from Case One. But, since the assumption was, if I interperet corectly, that trappers should have 16 att in Wilderness Survival, I'll present one more case. for this attribute spread to be possible, there must be a base attribute spending of 11 in Expertise. I would assume that a major Expertise rune would be used for this, especially since they only come at the price of 35 health since the update on them.

To show what the real extra cost is at using 13 att in expertise is as opposed to 15, I'll cite GuildWiki here: http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Expertise

According to the charts, since there are two 10 energy skills, one 15 energy skill and one 25 energy skill, the net extra cost of using one round of traps would be 5 energy.

Bonus Case:

Wilderness Survival: 10 + 1 + 3 = 16
Beast Mastery: 6 + 1 = 7

Damage potential of each skill for Bonus Case:

Viper's Nest:
26 damage
12 seconds of poison x 8 damage per second = 96 damage

Barbed Trap
68 damage

Dust Trap
26 damage x 5 seconds = 130 damage

Flame Trap
31 damage

Net damage potential from Case One = 351 damage

351 - 337 = 14 extra damage per trap set.

My conclusion from this is as follows. 14 damage is a small amount of difference. However, that 14 damage is per enemy. This means that 5 enemies results in 70 extra damage. Even with this said, the damage difference does not seem any more negligable than the 35 health difference. The difference in Expertise doesn't seem to make much of a difference since I and just about everyone I knew always trapped at about 13 Expertise.

If I had to pick one, I'd go with Sha's attribute spread, but I really don't think it makes a terrible difference either way since effectiveness of skills decreases in increase as the linked attribute itself increases.

Bottom line, it's not the attribute spread that makes makes Oath Shot builds more damaging, it's the ability to double trap every 20 seconds with every trap except for Dust Trap which is doubled every 40 seconds.

ok, I'm friggin tired from all this math, bit I welcome any mature criticisms to all that I have posted. If anyone knows a better way to measure the things I have here, I welcome them. As I said before I'm not a math major.

Sha Noran · Jun 25, 2006, 01:59 AM // 01:59

Degen from something such as Poison, when spread properly, is DoTs that cannot be ignored. Well, I guess you can ignore it, but that would be sort of silly of you...

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

If I had to pick one, I'd go with Sha's attribute spread, but I really don't think it makes a terrible difference either way since effectiveness of skills decreases in increase as the linked attribute itself increases.

Good call.

By the way, in case you really didn't notice, I have 15 in Expertise instead of the standard breakpoint 13 because Trapper's Focus is an Expertise related attribute skill.

Your numbers and yourself show that assuming all traps are dropped, near to equal damage is put out. However, you still fail to aknowledge the sheer number of times you'll be interrupted using an Oath Shot trapper build compared to a Trapper's Focus build, which reduces your overall damage considerably. Da Nile ain't just a river in Egypt. :-)

Good work on the math by the way. More trouble than I was going to go to.