Curse

RoadKill97 · Mar 07, 2007, 11:52 AM // 11:52

Katari, it's not the adrenaline that is my point but the fact that Sever + Gash isn't useful always. There are low al enemies who die too fast, then there are high al enemies who can take much more damage, and this is where +damage skills are superior. And of course there are enemies who don't even bleed making Sever + Gash completely useless. I'd say that for Sever and Gash to be at best you need to kill fleshy enemies with about 80-90 al. +Damage skills are always useful, regardless of the enemy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

No, it doesn't deal more damage. Dragon + Galrath + Silverwing deals less armor-ignoring damage than Dragon + Gash.

Maybe I should have been more clear. Your first chain of Sever + Gash + Dragon will deal more damage but the second chain is greatly inferior because the foe already has bleed and deep wound. Dragon + Galrath + Silverwing will take the lead here. For Sever and Gash to be a better choice you'll basically have to kill your target in the first attack chain which doesn't always happen. And when the target dies, with DS + GS + SS you can continue the attack chain straight to the next foe. But with Sever and Gash you might have to gather a little bit of adrenaline, which is not a big deal, but when talking about efficiency every hit and every second counts. Pity there isn't 120 al dummie, that would prove my point easier than the 100 al one. In any case, Dragon Slash is a pretty good skill to use with Sever and Gash after all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

And no, I have utility, usually Watch Yourself (Koss pwns me at Distracting Blow anyway, so no use). I don't use Enraging Charge, sorry but Flail doesn't really need a cancel in PvE...

...

You don't take Enraging to cancel Flail, though canceling Flail can save several seconds sometimes. You take Enraging to get Flail and your other adrenaline skills going to avoid suffering that awkward moment at the beginning of battle where you have no IAS and no attack skills to use, only normal attacks. With Enraging (and FGJ) you could get your SA + Gash charged in two attacks instead of five.

And I don't understand how Koss pwns you at Distracting when most skills you'd want to DB have 3/4, 1 sec, or longer activation times, and the AI will likely waste that interrupt on some less important skill.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

In the majority of cases you fight not one, but several enemies, after the first one your attacks will be pretty much kept charged by Dragon Slash.

I agree. That is what makes DS so great. But my point was that often these low al enemies die before I can use both Sever and Gash. Hitting with only Sever is not ideal when I could have used +40 attack.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

I prefer Spinal Shivers. Of course you could say hex removal, but that tends to be done by the same healers that are targeted first, as you say.

I'm not fond of idea having curses necro in my team and I having to use an icy weapon. Besides, daze is superior spell-wise.

But if we are going to go that route, have you considered someone else bringing the deep wound? An axe warrior or a paragon can inflict your obviously must have deep wound with only one skill slot!

qvtkc · Mar 07, 2007, 08:29 PM // 20:29

lol... sigh, Roadkill...

1) I don't use Sever on recharge, I use it on non-bleeding foes. So there will be no "second attack chain". There is only one attack chain, Sever - Gash - Dragon - S&M - Dragon - S&M - etc... every, and I mean every, swing is an attack skill.

2) I understand the use of Enraging Charge to get into the battle early, but seriously to go dry for three more swings and then go all out attacking for the rest of the battle doesn't worry me one bit.

3) That a spell has a 1 sec cast time doesn't matter when Koss interrupts it in 0.1 seconds (yes, 0.1, try it, it's as if he starts dblow before the enemy starts casting).

4) I'm going to go play some gw now.

RoadKill97 · Mar 07, 2007, 11:23 PM // 23:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

1) I don't use Sever on recharge, I use it on non-bleeding foes. So there will be no "second attack chain". There is only one attack chain, Sever - Gash - Dragon - S&M - Dragon - S&M - etc... every, and I mean every, swing is an attack skill.

1. I didn't say you're using Sever for the second time against an enemy who is bleeding. I said that Sever is useless against an enemy who's already bleeding.

2. What I mean with the second attack chain is that when you use your attack skills for the second time.

3. You need to gather adrenaline between Gash and Dragon, or either delay your attacks. You're not using an attack skill with every hit.

4. You're now bringing Sun and Moon up, though you weren't using the skill in your previous example, to which my example was a response.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

2) I understand the use of Enraging Charge to get into the battle early, but seriously to go dry for three more swings and then go all out attacking for the rest of the battle doesn't worry me one bit.

FGJ lasts 20 seconds. Better make good use of that time than hitting normal attacks. Besides, more often than not, the first 15 seconds matter more than the last 15 seconds. And because of this, for example, elementalists use attunements before the battle instead of when the battle starts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

3) That a spell has a 1 sec cast time doesn't matter when Koss interrupts it in 0.1 seconds (yes, 0.1, try it, it's as if he starts dblow before the enemy starts casting).

You're completely misunderstanding me. The cast time matters because you could interrupt instead of, or with Koss because you know what you would like to interrupt. The AI doesn't have a clue without your commands. And you're giving too much credit to the AI about it's interrupting capability.

qvtkc · Mar 08, 2007, 10:48 AM // 10:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoadKill97

1. I didn't say you're using Sever for the second time against an enemy who is bleeding. I said that Sever is useless against an enemy who's already bleeding.

2. What I mean with the second attack chain is that when you use your attack skills for the second time.

So since I use it on a non-bleeding enemy when I do use it the second time, it does have full effect? That seems logical? Or do you mean that I have to click the skills in a certain order?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoadKill97

3. You need to gather adrenaline between Gash and Dragon, or either delay your attacks. You're not using an attack skill with every hit.

I start using attack skills once I am one swing away from loaded Dragon. Sever -> Gash -> S&M (dragon is loaded) -> pingpong between Dragon and S&M. Of course, this is using FGJ. Hmm, speaking of that, would Infuriating Heat makes it even better? No S&M, instead just Sever -> Gash -> Dragon spam

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoadKill97

4. You're now bringing Sun and Moon up, though you weren't using the skill in your previous example, to which my example was a response.

Actually i was using it. My very first post in response to you was "First you throw away Sun and Moon from a Dragon Slash build ..."

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoadKill97

FGJ lasts 20 seconds. Better make good use of that time than hitting normal attacks. Besides, more often than not, the first 15 seconds matter more than the last 15 seconds. And because of this, for example, elementalists use attunements before the battle instead of when the battle starts.

Maybe it takes you 15 seconds to load Dragon. I do it slightly faster, say in 5 seconds. And no, elementalists load attunements before battle so that they they won't have to waste 2 (or 4-5) seconds during it. For elementalists especially, it means more than warriors. During the initial seconds of an encounter, positioning means far more than skill use for melee characters.

RoadKill97 · Mar 09, 2007, 01:38 PM // 13:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

So since I use it on a non-bleeding enemy when I do use it the second time, it does have full effect? That seems logical? Or do you mean that I have to click the skills in a certain order?

Neither. You have Sever Artery to cause unconditionally bleeding and bleeding only. Bleeding is a weak condition alone, and no-one would use Sever if bleeding wasn't required for Gash. To have one skill for nothing more than causing bleeding is not effective use of that skill slot in PvE, even though this allows you to cause a deep wound with a sword. If there was a skill equivalent of Dismember in the sword line, would you use Gash? Would anyone use Gash? I very much doubt it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

I start using attack skills once I am one swing away from loaded Dragon. Sever -> Gash -> S&M (dragon is loaded) -> pingpong between Dragon and S&M. Of course, this is using FGJ. Hmm, speaking of that, would Infuriating Heat makes it even better? No S&M, instead just Sever -> Gash -> Dragon spam

So you delay your attacks, as I thought. What can I say? Spiking is not very important in PvE. It's fun though, that I can admit.

And answer for your question, it's yes and no. Adrenaline gain is capped at 200%, and Infuriating Heat gives you +100% adrenaline for normal fighting, so you don't gain any more from FGJ, BUT IH doesn't give extra gain from Dragon Slash or Enraging Charge, so FGJ would still have some use under IH.

To make it simple:

- Under "For Great Justice!" you gain +50% adrenaline from normal fighting and +50% from skills

- Under Infuriating Heat you gain +100% adrenaline from normal fighting and +0% from skills

- Under both skills you gain +100% adrenaline from normal fighting and +50% from skills

Thus you cannot go DS --> DS --> DS --> DS, and so on without echoing the skill.

Btw, you could go Dragon --> Galrath/Silverwing/Standing --> Gash --> repeat, which is more damage than you get from your DS + S&M spamming. Gash deals +20 which about the same damage as you get from S&M against 100 al target. You would hit +42, +43, and +20. And there are no normal attacks between.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Actually i was using it. My very first post in response to you was "First you throw away Sun and Moon from a Dragon Slash build ..."

Yes, you're using S&M in your build but you weren't using the skill in your example because you wanted to say "armor ignoring damage", which is something S&M doesn't do. For the same reason you didn't mention Sever either, though it's pretty obvious you need it for Gash.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Maybe it takes you 15 seconds to load Dragon. I do it slightly faster, say in 5 seconds.

Add a second or a few for walking to the enemy and you get time that equals eternity. And you may want to read that 15 seconds thing again, this time with a thought.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

...elementalists load attunements before battle so that they they won't have to waste 2 (or 4-5) seconds during it.

Exactly my point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

For elementalists especially, it means more than warriors.

It's all the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

During the initial seconds of an encounter, positioning means far more than skill use for melee characters.

Positioning and skill use are not mutually exclusive.

There are few reasons for positioning.

- You want to take the initial spike from enemies so your less armored team members won't have to suffer. This you do when you approach the enemies

- You may want to block enemies. This is only important during elite missions or if you're dealing with several groups of enemies on purpose

- You may want to attack from higher ground

- You're using skills like Triple Chop and Cyclone Axe

For all these reasons except the last one you think your position ready before you are at the attack range, so positioning doesn't prevent you from effective skill use. I mean seriously, you're not attacking then repositioning, then attacking, and then changing the position again and so on.

qvtkc · Mar 09, 2007, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Roadkill... Your lack of thought worries me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoadKill97

Neither. You have Sever Artery to cause unconditionally bleeding and bleeding only. Bleeding is a weak condition alone, and no-one would use Sever if bleeding wasn't required for Gash. To have one skill for nothing more than causing bleeding is not effective use of that skill slot in PvE, even though this allows you to cause a deep wound with a sword. If there was a skill equivalent of Dismember in the sword line, would you use Gash? Would anyone use Gash? I very much doubt it.

Could you answer my question instead of making stuff up? I doubt it. My question was: Since I don't use Sever Artery on a bleeding enemy (and don't use Gash on a deep wounded enemy), why is my "chain" as you call it less effective the second time I use it? Since the second time I use these skills are against the next enemy, they are fully effective are they not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoadKill97

So you delay your attacks, as I thought. What can I say? Spiking is not very important in PvE. It's fun though, that I can admit.

No, I do not, as I said once I get rolling every swing will be an attack skill. I do delay for two swings more than you do, in the beginning, but I do pump out more damage than you for the remainder of the battle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoadKill97

And answer for your question, it's yes and no. Adrenaline gain is capped at 200%, and Infuriating Heat gives you +100% adrenaline for normal fighting, so you don't gain any more from FGJ, BUT IH doesn't give extra gain from Dragon Slash or Enraging Charge, so FGJ would still have some use under IH.

(...)

Btw, you could go Dragon --> Galrath/Silverwing/Standing --> Gash --> repeat, which is more damage than you get from your DS + S&M spamming. Gash deals +20 which about the same damage as you get from S&M against 100 al target. You would hit +42, +43, and +20. And there are no normal attacks between.

Damn, so much for my idea... But would really Dragon slash be recharged after hitting Gash? And what about once FGJ ends? Won't I be running dry much more with that version then?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoadKill97

Yes, you're using S&M in your build but you weren't using the skill in your example because you wanted to say "armor ignoring damage", which is something S&M doesn't do. For the same reason you didn't mention Sever either, though it's pretty obvious you need it for Gash.

I meant that Gash is 120 armor ignoring damage, which is pretty much compared to 42. And since you can only (according to yourself) expect to use a certain attack skill once against any given enemy, Gash seems to be a pretty good choice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoadKill97

Add a second or a few for walking to the enemy and you get time that equals eternity. And you may want to read that 15 seconds thing again, this time with a thought.

10 seconds to join battle?

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoadKill97

Positioning and skill use are not mutually exclusive.

There are few reasons for positioning.

(...)

- You may want to attack from higher ground

Yea attacking from higher ground gives me a +20 damage advantage with warrior weapons. Or was it a slight increase in bow damage only? Hmm.
Anyway, what I meant was that if I have to choose between positioning and skill use, I choose positioning. If that means that I wait for 3 seconds while the enemy come to me instead of me coming to them, I will wait (maybe I'm standing at a corner or at a chokepoint or something).

Either way, I think you understood by now that I am indeed right and you are wrong. You don't want to admit it, so you talk about a lot of other nonsense.

RoadKill97 · Mar 11, 2007, 02:06 AM // 02:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

But would really Dragon slash be recharged after hitting Gash?

The answer is in the text you quoted. You could also go test it yourself.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

And what about once FGJ ends?

I have already answered for this too but I'll make it clear: once FGJ ends, the enemies are dead.

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Originally Posted by qvtkc

Won't I be running dry much more with that version then?

The answer can be found in one of my previous posts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

I meant that Gash is 120 armor ignoring damage, which is pretty much compared to 42. And since you can only (according to yourself) expect to use a certain attack skill once against any given enemy, Gash seems to be a pretty good choice.

Alright, you're missing there several of my points. Few things:

1. Weak enemies drop fast in any case
2. Against stronger enemies you can use +damage skills often
3. I said "in the majority of cases", I didn't say "against any given enemy"
4. Sever Artery and Gash are +20 damage, bleed, and deep wound (which often equals to 100 damage). Gash is nothing alone, and definitely not 120 damage
5. Reread some posts from others in the first page

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Yea attacking from higher ground gives me a +20 damage advantage with warrior weapons.

That is the most stupidest assumption I have seen in a while.

And frankly, I'm not going to answer to the rest of your post because you're assuming way too much, and I'm tired of repeating myself over and over. You haven't understood much of my posts, and then you dare blame me for the "lack of thought"!

EDIT:

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Oh btw, I have tried both versions now, against all of the al 60-100 dummies. I also took both versions on a full tour of the Isle of the Nameless. In all cases my version killed faster. How's that for "assuming"?

Dummies are level 20. Higher level enemies have more damage reduction against non-armor ignoring damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoadKill97

Weak enemies drop fast in any case

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoadKill97

Pity there isn't 120 al dummie, that would prove my point easier than the 100 al one.

qvtkc · Mar 11, 2007, 07:00 PM // 19:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by RoadKill97

That is the most stupidest assumption I have seen in a while.

And frankly, I'm not going to answer to the rest of your post because you're assuming way too much, and I'm tired of repeating myself over and over. You haven't understood much of my posts, and then you dare blame me for the "lack of thought"!

I hope I don't have to post here again.

Most stupid*

And I was being sarcastic. Oh btw, I have tried both versions now, against all of the al 60-100 dummies. I also took both versions on a full tour of the Isle of the Nameless. In all cases my version killed faster. How's that for "assuming"?

kumarshah · Mar 11, 2007, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Well...after some posts this became quite useless.

Reinfire · Mar 12, 2007, 01:11 PM // 13:11

Hey lol its Kumar from heavengames

kumarshah · Mar 12, 2007, 03:24 PM // 15:24

Hey lol its Renfire from heavengames