Curse

Grammar · Mar 24, 2007, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Maybe it's just me, but in many/most PvE areas, I find that neither SoA or SH are really needed. All you really need is Prot Spirit.

To be more specific, all you really need in PvE to make monking easy is Prot Spirit, RoF, ZB, GoH, Dismiss, and sometimes a hex remover.
Everything else is just gravy.

My PvE bar looks like this:
RoF
GoH
ZB
Dismiss
Holy Veil
Prot Spirit
Optional slot (Sig of Devotion, Spirit Bond, SoA, etc.)
Rebirth

creelie · Mar 24, 2007, 06:30 AM // 06:30

Prot Spirit + SoA are an amazing synergy - if the ally is getting hit quickly enough. For example, the combo completely neuters an unprepared assassin.

I've been experimenting with SoA vs. SH myself, and it's hard to decide. SH has a longer recharge, but SoA casts slower. I may try just tossing them both for some other enchantment - preferably one that recharges in less than 5 seconds.

Sunbear · Mar 24, 2007, 08:38 AM // 08:38

At 15 Prot

Shielding Hands last 8 Seconds with 18 reduced Damage.
Shield of Absorption lasts 7 Seconds with progressive 5 damage reduction.
Lets assume we have a 20% enchant mod. Therefore, SH lasts 9.6 Seconds and SoA lasts 8.4 seconds.

Let's assume you are being attacked by a sword or axe, therefore its one hit per 1.33 seconds. Therefore, SH will reduce 7 attacks (rounded down) and SoA will reduce 6 attacks (rounded down).
Therefore, SH will reduce 18 x 7 = 126 Damage.
SoA will reduce 6 attacks, 5,10,15,20,25,30 = 105 Damage.

Therefore, SH will win ONLY if there is one attacker on the person.
This is assuming that there is no spike. In PvP, SH may beat SoA because of the longer cast time of SoA, however, if you pre-prot the person in PvE, SoA should outperform SH.

I usually run this as my Prot monk in PvE.

Zealous Benediction
Reversal of Fortune
Spirit Bond
Protective Spirit
Shield of Absorption
Dismiss Condition
Smite Hex or Revealed Hex
Rebirth.

Div · Mar 24, 2007, 09:08 AM // 09:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polynikes of Sparta

Information (at 15 Protection Prayers) -
Shielding Hands-18,18,18,18,18,18,18 = 126
Shield of Absorption-5,10,15,20,25,30,35 = 140

First of all, SH lasts 1-1.2 sec longer than SoA, so it'll shield more hits in general. The casting time shouldn't matter much in PvE, especially since you can easily preprot and monsters will keep hitting you anyways.

One thing this calculation fails at is that not all monsters will hit you for more than 25 damage. Typical monster spellcasters that staff you will hit for about 15-20 damage, meaning that a SoA reduction calculation may be more like 5,10,15,20,20,30,15 = 115, and SH would be something like 15,18,18,18,15,18,15 = 117. The disadvantage of SH is the much longer recharge.

It really depends on the area, and what kind of monsters you are tanking. Also, in areas with enchantment removal, SH seems better because its effect is strong at the beginning and doesn't need time to build up (and risk getting removed before it prevents enough damage).

Darkpower Alchemist · Mar 24, 2007, 11:51 AM // 11:51

It would seem that the logical choice would be SoA, since the reduction and recharge make it far more useful and accessable in a pinch in a PvE scenario. As previously mentioned, SoA+PS makes for a very well defended and tried enchantment combination.

SH,as one of the original protection spells has been revamped and now is made as a "viable" alternative for SoA and can actually earn its way onto a protection bar without this comparison. Though they essentially have a similar mechanic they will always be compared.

However, due to the nature of this discussion, the choice of which should be the prefered spell to use is mostly a choice made by prefrence rather than overall utility and/or usefulness. My prefrence at this point is SoA,yet,I would more than likely ask that a fellow monk carry either on his/her bar as a backup in case of enchantment stripping if that is a scenario we will encounter. More than likely,it would be that I would carry SoA and my counterpart would carry SH, to avoid overlapping.

Narayanese · Mar 24, 2007, 12:15 PM // 12:15

How does Guardian compare with the two? My PvE monk has a spare skill slot and could use an enchantment against concentrated physical pressure (Protective Spirit seems to counter spell damage well enough), so I'm torn between guardian, SH an SoA.

Polynikes of Sparta · Mar 24, 2007, 10:35 PM // 22:35

i run:

zb
rof
prot spirit
gole
aegis
sh or soa
guardian
rebirth

i find condition removal to be ineffective, becuz its usually on more than one party member and its usually reapplied. hex removal is sometimes good, but only in areas heavy in hexes, in which i would take divert. guardian is an awesome skill to just throw on a charging warrior or melee class. guardian then prot spirit is a pretty nice combo.

i would have to say SoA for PvE. when someone is taking damage in PvE its not just one creature. plus, SoA is amazing when something makes u take damage rapidly, such as AoE skills. one time, a ranger used whirling defense and a warrior was standing next to him while a paragon and an ally ranger were attacking the opposing ranger. the warr was taking damage from whirlin defense. i put SoA on him, he took bout 16 hits. then when an enemy tried to hit him, it was useless =P.

~Polynikes

Racthoh · Mar 25, 2007, 07:18 AM // 07:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samuel Dravis

Um, why would you hate condition removal? Dismiss is good because it

1) Removes the condition
2) Does an orison level heal when enchanted ([email protected]+divine)
3) Recharge is 3 seconds (2 seconds faster than Sig of Devotion)

Requirement 2 is incredibly easy to meet. Why would you take sig of devotion, with its incredibly long cast time and nonexistent utility, instead of Dismiss? If you're having energy problems, Aegis usually isn't needed at all in PvE. If you work it right (kite, etc) only a few people will be being hit enough to take significant damage from melee. That frees up 2 slots for emanagement and other utility. I'd suggest Channeling, with 6 in inspiration, as well as Holy Veil. Besides, healing is what you have ZB for.

Aegis takes away the worry of using Dismiss as a heal for 11+ seconds (assuming you have a weapon set with an enchanting mod). Granted if you're using Dismiss Condition as a heal the target has probably been under fire so is proted in some form.

Signet of Devotion is simply amazing, I play my ZB monk as 14 prot/13 divine so it's a 94 point heal for free every 7~ seconds. I'm not sure what kind of energy returns you're expecting/are receiving from Channeling, given that you are a monk, it's PvE, and you can easily avoid being the focus of fire on most occasions. Not to mention when Glyph of Lesser Energy has the potential of netting you 25 energy every 30 seconds for no spec whatsoever. To boot, Aegis = 30 second recharge and 15 energy; the two skills were meant for each other.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Narayanese

How does Guardian compare with the two? My PvE monk has a spare skill slot and could use an enchantment against concentrated physical pressure (Protective Spirit seems to counter spell damage well enough), so I'm torn between guardian, SH an SoA.

I haven't touched Guardian much since Nightfall, it was replaced with Shield of Absorption. Why block half the attacks when you can just render everything useless? In an organized group, you can probably drop Aegis in favour of Guardian since aggro will be more controlled. There is no need for the party wide 50% block when one person is most (if not all) the hits. But then again if aggro is that well controlled, SoA will save the day.

Samuel Dravis · Mar 25, 2007, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Aegis takes away the worry of using Dismiss as a heal for 11+ seconds (assuming you have a weapon set with an enchanting mod). Granted if you're using Dismiss Condition as a heal the target has probably been under fire so is proted in some form.

I like Dismiss not only because it heals for so much, but also because it removes a condition while doing so. I've also found that the target of Dismiss is almost always enchanted already, either thru my own spells, another monk, and in the case of eles (who nearly universally have an Attunement) and some others, by themselves.

Quote:

In an organized group, you can probably drop Aegis in favour of Guardian since aggro will be more controlled. There is no need for the party wide 50% block when one person is most (if not all) the hits. But then again if aggro is that well controlled, SoA will save the day.

Quote:

Signet of Devotion is simply amazing, I play my ZB monk as 14 prot/13 divine so it's a 94 point heal for free every 7~ seconds.

Don't get me wrong, Sig of Devotion is nice for energy pressure. However, being under edenial like that in PvE is pretty much nonexistent in my experience. The recharge and cast time seal the deal for me. For example, in that same 7 seconds, you can get two casts of Dismiss in, healing for ~109hp (12divine/14prot). That is 218hp healed, and potentially 2 conditions removed. Your response time between damage and heal is cut in half as well, which is fairly significant if other people need attention. It takes Dismiss 4.3 energy to heal the same amount as Sig. More on the energy thing below.

Quote:

I'm not sure what kind of energy returns you're expecting/are receiving from Channeling, given that you are a monk, it's PvE, and you can easily avoid being the focus of fire on most occasions. Not to mention when Glyph of Lesser Energy has the potential of netting you 25 energy every 30 seconds for no spec whatsoever. To boot, Aegis = 30 second recharge and 15 energy; the two skills were meant for each other.

Actually, I've had some really exellent experiences with Channeling in PvE. Because, as you say, the mobs will usually attack whoever goes in first, you can just hang back for a minute and then walk right up to the biggest mob and they won't hit you. I usually just go straight up into the cluster of casters, or beside a few warriors.

This gets me 2-3 energy reductions virtually all the time, and a lot of the time, if your aggro is good, you can get net gains in energy while using 5 energy spells. This is incredibly useful if the fight drags on, because you can basically cast an infinite chain of heals and prots on recharge. If you use ZB and some good positioning, that will also grant you easy energy gains if used while they're under 50%.

GoLE is quite nice. I'll use it if I'm playing healer, because the combo of heal party + GoLE is superb. The reason I don't use GoLE Aegis is because I can't cast Aegis chains with it, and Channeling nets me more energy over the course of a fight anyway.

The energy gained if you are sitting beside x enemies is dependent on how much you cast. I run 6 Inspiration, which lets Channeling run for 27 seconds + 20% enchanting = 32 seconds. With two enemies, you'll gain back your energy you spent with 2.5 casts (which can be under 2 seconds into fighting). After that you'll gain energy. Just casting RoF for 18 seconds beside 2 enemies would net you ~8 casts, with +16 energy. Without Channeling, that would cost 40 energy, with it it costs only 24. This bonus only increases with more enemies; with 3 it would grant you 24 energy, net 16 spent; 4 enemies, only 8 spent. Over the 18 second time period, you'd have a natural regeneration of 24 energy (1.33en/sec), so you can begin to see the kind of benefits it's giving you - standing next to 3 enemies, you'll have full energy the entire time. Additionally, if you cast Channeling again while you still have it on you, you'll get the energy reduction as well, so it gets even cheaper to maintain the longer the fight goes on.

I really suggest you try it if you haven't already; it works very well.

Effigy · Mar 25, 2007, 07:31 PM // 19:31

Condition removal isn't an option, it's a necessity. Unless your team has some support character devoted to condition removal, both monks should have Mend/Dismiss Condition.

Ensign · Mar 26, 2007, 11:10 AM // 11:10

Shield of Absorption if you're going to bring one, period. Shielding Hands doesn't actually do anything, the damage reduction really isn't that significant (not enough to save someone taking a beating), it becomes progressively worse as you advance through the game, and really ends up not being worth a slot. Shield of Absorption isn't super sweet either most of the time, it's pretty good if you have a dedicated tank in the group and are taking advantage of that, or if you have a really weak player on the team whose an aggro magnet and just gets pummeled...otherwise it'll sit on your bar unused.

Consider Shield of Absorption to be a decent candidate for a free slot on your bar, and Shielding Hands to be something goofy to play with when messing around in noobieland.

Tangent - I don't understand what this whole "Mend/Dismiss vs Signet of Devotion" discussion is about. The three most important skills on a Prot bar, for a vast, vast majority of PvE, are Protective Spirit, Mend/Dismiss Condition, and Signet of Devotion (with Gift of Health shortly behind). I don't know what's being run over those skills on people's bars, but it's rather rare that you can find four other skills that are all more important than one of those four skills.

Peace,
-CxE

Age · Mar 26, 2007, 10:10 PM // 22:10

I would probably run SoA or Guardian but SH isn't that bad as it has been buffed but not enough.This would be good in low lvl areas but no high lvl areas and I don't know why Lina has it in the Crystal Desert guardian or Mend would much better.

Polynikes of Sparta · Mar 26, 2007, 11:36 PM // 23:36

off-topic, which bar ftw?

zb
sig devo
dismiss
prot spirit
rof
gole
aegis
rebirth

or

zb
rof
prot spirit
gole
aegis
soa
sig devo
rebirth

???

~Polynikes

ump · Mar 27, 2007, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polynikes of Sparta

off-topic, which bar ftw?

zb
sig devo
dismiss
prot spirit
rof
gole
aegis
rebirth

or

zb
rof
prot spirit
gole
aegis
soa
sig devo
rebirth

???

~Polynikes

Because you need condition removal, the one with dismiss over the one without.

Polynikes of Sparta · Mar 27, 2007, 08:15 PM // 20:15

ok, so which one?

zb
rof
dismiss
SIGNET OF DEVOTION or SHIELD OF ABSORPTION?
prot spirit
gole
aegis
rebirth

~Polynikes

olly123 · Mar 27, 2007, 09:38 PM // 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polynikes of Sparta

ok, so which one?

zb
rof
dismiss
SIGNET OF DEVOTION or SHIELD OF ABSORPTION?
prot spirit
gole
aegis
rebirth

~Polynikes

i myslef woudl lose GoLE and aegis for GoH and SoA, i can never find room on my bar anymore for SoD and i run low DF anyway

Dr Dem · Mar 30, 2007, 06:13 PM // 18:13

One point to note for Bonder monks, in PvE or PvP,

SoA can basically nullify all damage providing you have life bond on all your other allies, and they are recieving damage too,

I've tried it a couple of times when you get overwhelmed in PvP, you can be almost invincible for 7 secs, giving you enough time to heal back up etc, It's a very effective way of protecting yourself whilst bonding.

In general, Id prefer SH, as SoA is more conditional, you can sometimes hesitate to use it when its needed, or use it when SH would have been more effective.

leeky baby · Mar 30, 2007, 06:20 PM // 18:20

i prefer SOA over shielding hands, y because it has the possiblty to reduce more dmg, although it doesnt always xD

Wilhelm · Mar 31, 2007, 03:44 AM // 03:44

I always have SoA on my bar. It's great in RA/TA, when the ever popular "Monk Stomp" is coming, and like Ensign noted...great when you have a dedicated tank in pve.