Curse

Themis · Jun 29, 2006, 09:03 AM // 09:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin_Anadri

All of that being said, none of this relates to the topic at hand, which is about tactics and builds for Mesmers to deal with touch rangers. If you want to whinge about their very existence, there's already a lovely little flame war going on in the Ranger forum. Go argue it there.

Anybody else have a unique perspective on using mesmer skills (or Mesmer plus another class) to own touchers?

Are you the forum moderator ? This thread's owner, perhaps ? Keep your posts concise, if you are really concerned about this thread's clarity : try to spend fewer lines justifying poor design.

No flame intended, but if you could stop whining about "inappropriate criticism", i would appreciate. Thank you.

Robin_Anadri · Jun 29, 2006, 05:44 PM // 17:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Themis

Are you the forum moderator ? This thread's owner, perhaps ? Keep your posts concise, if you are really concerned about this thread's clarity : try to spend fewer lines justifying poor design.

No flame intended, but if you could stop whining about "inappropriate criticism", i would appreciate. Thank you.

I started the thread, if that makes me the owner, then yes.

Please note that clarity does not always or even often come from brevity. I'm not "justifying" anything, I was responding to your extremely subjective opinion concerning what qualifies as an "exploit." Also, detailing precisely why doubled skills != free echo required some detailed explanation.

As a side note, I never said "inappropriate criticism." When you place words in quotes like that, it means "you said this and I am referencing your words." If you were unaware of that literary convention, now you know, and knowing is half the battle.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Back to the topic at hand. Last night I played a ranger in AB, running Punishing Shot, Dual Shot, Savage Shot, Pin Down, Apply Poison & Ignite Arrows (obviously the last two alternately.) I personally killed a slew of touch rangers all by myself, and quite a few more with the help of my team.

I'm curious if some variation of Me/R or R/Me might be the Ultimate Touch Ranger Killer Build. Any thoughts?

I'm thinking something along the lines of using Crippling Anguish/Imagined Burden/Etheral Burden/Shared Burden instead of Pin Down/Crippling Shot as the snare, as the hexes don't have the drawback of needing to "hit" (despite Crippling Shot's inability to be "blocked" or "evaded" it can still be dodged or obstructed) plus the snare can't be Plague Touched off. Also, adding one of the illusion degens to the poison for faster killing.

I believe the question of running Me/R or R/Me comes down to where it's most important to have a value over 12, but I worry that needing points in Wilderness Survival and Marksmanship *as well* as Illusion and Fast Casting may spread the points too thin. (I hope I'm right in remembering that Apply Poison requires a melee weapon or a bow? If not, forget Marksmanship and definately go Mesmer primary.)

So...

Mantra of Persistence
Crippling Anguish {e}
Conjure Phantasm
Apply Poison
Hunter's Shot (bleeding)
Debilitating Shot (edenial!)
Storm Chaser
Troll Unguent

Thoughts?

Themis · Jun 29, 2006, 07:22 PM // 19:22

Thoughts ? Just one : No profession needs a "Touch Ranger Killer Build" (ultimate

, or not), one needs simply to learn how to play.

The above phrase represents my (extremely subjective) definition of clarity.

Robin_Anadri · Jun 29, 2006, 09:53 PM // 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Themis

Thoughts ? Just one : No profession needs a "Touch Ranger Killer Build" (ultimate

, or not), one needs simply to learn how to play.

The above phrase represents my (extremely subjective) definition of clarity.

No one said a profession needed it. This thread is about the enjoyable pasttime of specifically Mesmers hunting touch rangers for fun and profit. As such, it is a place for the discussion of tactics thereof, and if you have nothing further to add to such, I suggest you refrain from posting in it.

As to clarity, "simply to learn how to play" is completely bereft of content, and does clearly convey anything except your baseless arrogance.

-- - -- --- -- --- - - - - ---- - - - - ---

Back to topic, thinking about the skills I suggested earlier, I'm going to ditch Mantra of Persistence. There's just no point, there aren't skill points to spare for Inspiration Magic. In its place, I think either Images of Remorse or another hex snare, i'm think Ethereal/Kitah's because of the net energy gain.

I still think Crippling Anguish is the best bet for the elite slot, although I'm open to suggestions. A ranger elite? We'd be limited to Marksmanship, Wilderness Survival and unlinked elites to be effective, and I'm not thinking of any that would be better than Crippling Anguish in this build.

So.. Touch ranger sighted.... Apply Poison, then Crippling Anguish.. kite a bit to make sure you're out of threat range, hit them with Hunter's Shot to apply both poison and bleeding, Debilitating Shot to bleed 10 energy away, hit Conjure Phantasm to add to the degen, throw on IoR if we've taken that... keep damaging them with bow attacks and keep the poison applied... Shouldn't take long.

I wish I could go try this right now, but still got three hours of work to go... Anybody else give it a go?

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 29, 2006, 09:59 PM // 21:59

At least everyone seems to be in agreement in that snares and energy denial are ways to kill the touch rangers...

I do not like the idea of apply poisen/hunter's shot as many touch rangers do not run plague touch and opt to use plague sending instead (I mean I would, touch while crippled is hard...spell range...easy)

Troll urgent is a not so useful skill for pvp; too long of a cast time does not justify non-dispellable weak health regeneration.

You lack a res signet.

Debilitating shot is a bad choice when there are better choices availible within the mesmer line for energy denial; I hate suggesting a 3 second skill after I just dismissed one but with fast casting it should become around 2 seconds with a 40% chance of 1 so I can lay my conceince to sleep with that. Energy tap would be useful in energy denial and energy management. Etherfeast will give you self healing in the steed of trolls, and give you some energy pick-pocketing as well. I would bring phantom pain; simply because it is "spiffy" and allows a 20-second kill if unaided via heals with the 10 degen 20second+dw policy.

Lastly this will take you to 3 attributes; which is great.

-edit-
*What happened to the build that this post was responding to? It was right there a few moments ago...*
-edit-
*nevermind; found it...weird gwguru glitch*

LouAl · Jun 29, 2006, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Just one thought, Robin. Wouldn't you be wasting a big chunk of degen with that? I mean it maxes out at 10 (right?) and you have 3 from Crip, 3 from bleeding, 4 from poison, and 5 from conjure...for a total of 10 (15 capped at 10) degen. It seems like you could do just fine without conjure.

I suppose if you were thinking to spread this all around it would work.

btw I like the good fun of working over a specific kind of build. I used to spend time in the RA just for the fun of cleaning out the prolific Wammos that tend to overpopulate the region.

Robin_Anadri · Jun 29, 2006, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Eaimirth: Have you actually seen touchers using Plague Sending? I thought about it when I was noodling around with the build, but the high energy cost coupled with being a spell and thus not subject to Expertise caused me to discard the option. Of course, if more people start meeting touchers with snares, they may figure it worth the cost, but it will make them all the easier to e-deny.

As for res sig, I left it out because I mainly hunt touchers in Alliance Battles, where it's not necessary. Of course we'd want to throw that in for RA.

As for Phantom Pain... *DOH!* How could I forget my new favorite skill, Accumulated Pain? I really do like it much better than PP, because it's Deep Wound *right now.*

If i'm going to leave out apply poison and hunter's shot, there's really no point to including the /R sub at all. I know that there are pure mesmer ways to own touchers, I've done it multiple times myself. But I was basically throwing out the "Mesmer and Ranger - two great tastes that taste great together" thing wrt killing touchers quickly and efficiently. I'm thinking that with the snare, poison, bleeding, degen and deep wound, we should have the touch ranger dead before he can *think* about trying a plague touch/send. (Also, note the inclusion of Storm Chaser in my build - it shouldn't be too hard to kite out of spell range leaving behind a crippled, poisoned, bleeding, deep-wounded hexed vampire soon to be dead.)

I included Troll Unguent just to have some heal, my combo would require a noticible investment in Wilderness Survival, I wouldn't expect TU to be used except as an idling skill between battles, but may as well use it since the points are in that line.

LouAl: I like to stack on as much degen as possible, so that no matter what they do, they can't get out from under that -10 cap. Most touchers don't carry Troll Unguent, because there are only 6 points to spare for WS, but I don't them to be able to stave off even a few pips of the degen. That also helps counter healing breeze if an enemy monk tries to counter the degen for them. Massive overkill FTW!

As for killing wammos... it's almost too easy with a mesmer. Hee.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 29, 2006, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Well its also note worthy that ailments are very easy to remove; while as hexes are difficult. If they don't plague send you, they will plague send a teammate...which are all too plentiful in allience battles (or so I would assume). Also yes; I have seen them use it. (Off topic but avoid mend ailment like the plague)

Me/R has very little synergy going for it; famine...tiger's fury...and thats about it. Both classes accomplish kiting very well; but ironically are not so great when combined together.

I would take etherfeast over trolls anyday, in fact I am often disappointed in teammates who use trolls. In those 3 seconds they often take more damage than they heal; and those 3 stationary seconds are best used running. Its an ok skill for a r/ but definatly not for a me/r (although I still despise it regardless)

"Right now" deepwound is fine; but hey I only have prophicies and I don't need the deepwound now, I need it in 20seconds ^_^;

so basically what I am suggesting is
Big three
-phantom/accumlated pain (I suggest phantom for cover+damage...mainly cover)
-crippling anguish or other slow skill (hex)
-degen skill (IoR or conjure, I personally don't care...well I do care...take IoR...wait... take IoR if you are majoring in illusion conjure if majoring in inspiration)

Supportive skills
-Res sig
-Energy Tap/Drain (energy)
-Ether Feast (heal skill)
-Mantra of Persistence (...duh)
-Kitah's/ethernal burden (more energy)
-Imagined burden (if you don't take anguish)
-Distortion~
-Spirit shackles
-Arcane condium
-random illusion hex thingy
-inspired hex/copy of inspired hex
-ETHER LORD!!! (just kidding =p)
-some more that I can't think of
Diviations of course as long as the big three are there everything will go fine (maybe make it a big four by adding persistence, heck in allience battles IoR spam everything because you can for pressure...I mean its what 5 energy for about 200 damage?)

Robin_Anadri · Jun 30, 2006, 02:52 PM // 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

Me/R has very little synergy going for it; famine...tiger's fury...and thats about it. Both classes accomplish kiting very well; but ironically are not so great when combined together.

Oy. It pains me to admit it, but I can't argue after last night's testing. Mesmer primaries make poor rangers, at least if you're going to be using a bow. Those missing runes make a big difference, as does the lack of Expertise. Bow attacks and preperations are *expensive.*

I may still try a R/Me build, but I can only see carrying Imagined Burden and maybe IoR. I'm not even sure about Imagined Burden, it's just far too easy to apply Crippled with ranger skills.

Soooooo.... Me/R FTL.

What about other secondary synergies? I mean, we all know that pure mesmer can hunt touchers pretty effectively, but I'm still interested in finding some kind of interesting synergy with a subclass, for variety/flavor.

Suggestions, anybody?

Avarre · Jun 30, 2006, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Mesmer primary cannot effectively subclass to war or ranger really... they have no spells to speak of, and that's that.

Pure mesmers can beat touchers;
Mes ele... well fc water would win, otherwise it would use mostly the same as pure

None of the other classes have anything I can think of immediately that would be better than a pure mesmer's skills. Even feast (since you already have insp) is a better selfheal in most cases.

Leon_Ux-ixen · Jun 30, 2006, 03:08 PM // 15:08

HA!!!! Now I WILL TELLL THE LUXON TOUCH RANGERS AND YOUR EVIL KRUZICK PLANS WILL BE RUINED!!!!

Avarre · Jun 30, 2006, 03:19 PM // 15:19

What are they going to do? Bleed on us?

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 30, 2006, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

What are they going to do? Bleed on us?

Ouch...I hate to admit it but that was a nice one.

Also since the mesmer primary is fast casting...it pains me to see that rangers and warriors have no spells. Thus the only benefit these classes can get from mesmers is; higher attributes in mesmer skills, and their armor...
Problem is; higher attributes in mesmer skills=a better spell caster=more fast casting (in general)
So we have distortion...

All hail IAS buff stance/enchantment in fast casting line! (<-I swear the more I think about it the more it seems like a good idea...non-elite would be good)

Avarre · Jun 30, 2006, 03:53 PM // 15:53

For 5 seconds, you attack X% faster (going up like burning speed, to 42% at 12).

I could like that.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 30, 2006, 04:03 PM // 16:03

42% faster...wow exceeding the cap abit and would make IW way powerful...but hey I could like it too...may have to be elite at that rate though.
-edit-
Choke gas+fast cast ias would be...wow that would be lockdown if we had a shortbow...(CC bow anyone XD)

Avarre · Jun 30, 2006, 04:15 PM // 16:15

Well you could reduce it abit but since it would be restricted to mesmers anyway, I don't think it would be overpowered that much.

And IW is just as easy to fight as touchers

Robin_Anadri · Jun 30, 2006, 04:52 PM // 16:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

And IW is just as easy to fight as touchers

Perhaps even easier.

IW Mes: *casts IW* "HA HA! I shall do massive armor-ignoring damage to you!"
Actual Mes: *casts Shatter Enchantment* "Will you, now?"

-- - - - --- ---- - - - - --

BTW - I've though of one possible subclass synergy - Assassin. Just for skills like Caltrops or Return or Recall, for kiting away and causing crippled. Wouldn't have to invest a lot of points in the assassin attributute to make it effective, and the shadow stepping of Return or Recall would be a nifty way to fly out of touch range after you've inflicted your degen/deep wound.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 30, 2006, 05:42 PM // 17:42

Hehe true they could always just shatter it XD; have had that happen to me a few times before, have been able to do a few "fake outs" where they shatter the just cast illusion of weakness instead, but I admit that is because they are inexperienced (thus I adapted my tactics to take advantage of said inexperience =p)
Shattered IW=
Me/A hope these daggers+dagger skills work...
Me/W Heal sig + conjure+BO spam ftw...er ftl...
Me/R Ok time to switch to the cc bow and attempt to kill the target w/ pet attacks

But with a Me/Mo this could be interesting; we could use guardian or some other quick casting enchantment as a cover for IW, or perhaps the IAS will cover iw? Man I get giddy whenever I think of having a IAS mesmer skill...as long as it isn't a PoS like our running skill (Illusion of haste!...seriously who made this crap? Reduce energy cost to 5, increase duration, and lower cast time jees!...says "do not use me unless you are crippled; and you should only be crippled if they have crip shot therefore I am useless for running in most scenarios" all over it) =p

Avarre · Jun 30, 2006, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Well Me/Mo... 42/1.33 = like 31.5 damage a second, with no way to stop kiting, oh noes! Not until we get an ias enchant...

Themis · Jun 30, 2006, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin_Anadri

As to clarity, "simply to learn how to play" is completely bereft of content, and does clearly convey anything except your baseless arrogance.

How funny Robin_Anadri... but wait ! You've stated in another thread (@Rangers forum) and about the same subject the following :

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin_Anadri

Things like touch rangers serve as object lessons for those willing to learn. The vampires have been the greatest force in recent memory to teach PvPers the importance of kiting, snares, and degen. Those who learn these lessons are better players for it. Those who refuse to learn will continue to get pwnt. Such is the nature of the game

So ? Where is the truth dear chameleon ?

Are you blinded by Ineptitude ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

What are they going to do? Bleed on us?

*holds belly laughing*