Curse

holden · Jun 28, 2006, 03:23 PM // 15:23

if i go to RA to get some faction i usually take my mesmer.

there are sooo many warriors i can't help myself. most are new and ignorant of conditions and hexes. they just keeep ooonnnnn swingin

and it's really the only place i can use pp/shatter

makosi · Jun 28, 2006, 05:58 PM // 17:58

The trouble with taking your mes to the RA is that its hard to keep yourself safe because you are usually the primary target if there isn't a monk on your team. I like distortion and hex breaker for protection but they're both stances and its hard to run from the wammo and prevent the Life Transfer from hexing you, whilst kiting and attacking enemies. Mesmers are highly destructive but they need the support of allies which is rare in arenas.

I like the way people make it so simple to use diversion on the touch rangers. Good luck spamming diversion on the other 3 touchers aswell because they'll eat you alive while you are doing so, and yes, you can kite from them but you can't kite and cast at the same time. Keep in mind that the base casting time of Diversion is three seconds so you have to invest a lot in Fast Casting.

As for the illusion snares, it isn't reasonable to snare more than one toucher/warrior because you don't have enough skill slots or energy to do so.

Quote:

Mesmers are attacked first precisely because they're a formidable threat.

Nothing to do with their 60AL armour or rubbish self-healing?

Oh, and this thread isn't 'tragic', my wording caused confusion, sorry.

The fact that thread like this must be made is the tragedy. I'm glad that this discussion was started because anet don't seem to be doing much so someone may aswell spread their wisdom.

Themis · Jun 28, 2006, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin_Anadri

Well, I'll respond, as the bringer of this "tragic" thread. I fail to see your logic. Beyond arguing about the build being an "exploit" (it's not), there is nothing to refute the truth that it is skill that earns victory or defeat.

I disagree. Being able to fill a skill bar with twice the same skill, IS an exploit. I mean, what next ? Next chapter we could be able to take 3 times SympatheticVisage ? It's ridiculous. ANet should fix this.

makosi · Jun 28, 2006, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Themis

I disagree. Being able to fill a skill bar with twice the same skill, IS an exploit. I mean, what next ? Next chapter we could be able to take 3 times SympatheticVisage ? It's ridiculous. ANet should fix this.

Yes, free Echo isn't fair for some builds.

Loki Seiguro · Jun 28, 2006, 06:25 PM // 18:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yanman.be

A GOOD TR will used wasd or zqsd to get to his targets...I always bring a staff

- i use the new blood staff milturun or something like that..

Themis · Jun 28, 2006, 06:29 PM // 18:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

Yes, free Echo isn't fair for some builds.

Echo has energy cost, casting and recharge times. Nothing to do with with having twice the same skill

Robin_Anadri · Jun 28, 2006, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Themis

I disagree. Being able to fill a skill bar with twice the same skill, IS an exploit. I mean, what next ? Next chapter we could be able to take 3 times SympatheticVisage ? It's ridiculous. ANet should fix this.

Oh, please. Why does every thread that discusses tactics vs touch rangers devolve into whining about doubled skills?

Do you honestly think Anet forgot about Vampiric Touch when they created Vampiric Bite for factions? Or any of the other doubled skills? If Anet did not want people with both chapters to have the ability to take both skills they would have made the skills Core instead of creating a Factions variation. The doubling of skills is deliberate, not an exploit. It is an introduction of a new wrinkle to the game mechanics, in which players may choose to sacrifice one of their precious eight skill slots in order to duplicate a particular effect before the recharge of the first skill. This is a fair trade, and is the same sort of trade that echo/archane echo mesmers and glyph elementalists make, only less flexible as non mesmers and non elementalists can't chose which skill to quickly repeat.

The touch ranger is a clever application of this new game mechanic, but it is not an exploit. The game is functioning as designed. As has been noted on this thread already, touchers are a glass cannon and are easily defeated by skillful (there's that word again!) play.

Now back to the actual topic of the thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

As for the illusion snares, it isn't reasonable to snare more than one toucher/warrior because you don't have enough skill slots or energy to do so.

Sorry, can't back you on that one.

Quote:

Shared Burden {Elite} - Hex Spell 15 en, 2 cast, 25 rech
For 3-14 seconds, target foe and all nearby foes move 50% slower.

And taking advantage of doubled skills:

Quote:

Ethereal Burden - Hex Spell 15 en, 3 cast, 45 rech
For 10 seconds, target foe moves 50% slower than normal. When Ethereal Burden ends, you gain 10-20 Energy.

Kitah's Burden -Hex Spell 15 en, 3 cast, 45 rech
For 10 seconds, target foe moves 50% slower than normal. When Kitah's Burden ends you gain 10-20 Energy.

At 16 illusion, Etheral and Kitah's return 23 energy, which make them decent energy management skills. But unlike Mantra of Recall, they're not elite and provide useful ill effects on your foes. Used in conjunction with Mantra of Persistance at decent Inspiration levels, you can snare them for 15-19 seconds. Plenty of time to kite away and cast your degen skill. And you only need one, Illusion of Pain, because at 16 illusion they will be under full -10 degen and with Mantra of Persistence that lasts for 15-19 seconds. They should be dead before the heal ever kicks in. Especially since you're going to take advantage of two hexes on them to cast Accumulated Pain and give them a Deep Wound.

Evilsod · Jun 28, 2006, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin_Anadri

Oh, please. Why does every thread that discusses tactics vs touch rangers devolve into whining about doubled skills?

I can see why they added it, Vampiric Touch doesn't make sense with Wallows, unlike Vamp Bite. I still don't like it though, but i'll live with it. Owning them with Cripshot is far too much fun.

Honestly, if people in RA/TA are too stupid to kite from the Touch Ranger, i don't see a single reason why they shouldn't win. Eventually people might cotton on and run off, until then the Touchies deserve every spammed Vamp skill they can do and every bit of faction they earn. If this doesn't teach people how to kite when its needed, i seriously couldn't give a flying f*ck if they're winning all the time. If they start to win constantly when people learn the basics of PvP kiting, then we have a problem.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 28, 2006, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Havn't bothered to do the math if they "should win" but for some reason I have my IW win against touch rangers...of the two RA builds (being that they should never leave ra...) I always thought the touch would/should win...

any comments on this?

LouAl · Jun 28, 2006, 10:35 PM // 22:35

This thread is funny...

My personal thoughts are that there are many great ideas in here and a lot of flames. I also don't really care about touch rangers because I think they are fairly weak.

btw Eaimirth, not to flame you at all, but a point is not "mute" becuase you come up with a good reason to disqualify it from consideration. I think that you mean to render a point "moot" by claiming it is hypothetical or of no relevance. (I am really not flaming you I just had to point it out because you used it a number of times and were clearly meaning moot)

Themis · Jun 28, 2006, 11:09 PM // 23:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin_Anadri

Do you honestly think Anet forgot about Vampiric Touch when they created Vampiric Bite for factions? Or any of the other doubled skills? If Anet did not want people with both chapters to have the ability to take both skills they would have made the skills Core instead of creating a Factions variation. The doubling of skills is deliberate, not an exploit. It is an introduction of a new wrinkle to the game mechanics, in which players may choose to sacrifice one of their precious eight skill slots in order to duplicate a particular effect before the recharge of the first skill. This is a fair trade, and is the same sort of trade that echo/archane echo mesmers and glyph elementalists make, only less flexible as non mesmers and non elementalists can't chose which skill to quickly repeat.

Your logic is subjective. Feel free to think that a concious action is a self-justifying one, but from my point of view it is simply a design flaw. Deliberate, as any other mistake.
I mean, i haven't seen Inspired Enchantment on a Mesmer skill bar for at least 11 months. But... two of them ? Let me lough...

Duplicating Heal Other is poor design. Deliberately poor design, if you wish.

makosi · Jun 28, 2006, 11:17 PM // 23:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Themis

Echo has energy cost, casting and recharge times. Nothing to do with with having twice the same skill

I don't understand how that related to what I said. If anything, you backed me up. Echo takes an elite spot, has casting and recharge times and is all about having twice the same skill. Vampiric bite has none of these drawbacks so its a simulation of free Echo.

Robin_Anadri · Jun 29, 2006, 12:15 AM // 00:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Themis

Your logic is subjective. Feel free to think that a concious action is a self-justifying one, but from my point of view it is simply a design flaw. Deliberate, as any other mistake.

Duplicating Heal Other is poor design. Deliberately poor design, if you wish.

I didn't say a conscious action was a self-justifying one. I merely said it was deliberate, and thus the availability of both skills to users who have purchased both chapters is not an "exploit." It's working as designed.

A true exploit is something that violates the stated intent or spirit of the design, such as the exploit that allowed postsear items to be ferried to presear characters via the guild hall when observer mode was first introduced. That was clearly against the design of the system (presear characters cannot travel to guild halls), and as warned in the EULA, users who exploited the defect were banned.

Your opinion that the design is "poor" is subjective. You will note that the doubled skills all have a Canthan flavor in their naming, for instance "Wallow's Bite," "Silverwing Slash," "Jamei's Gaze," "Ancestor's Visage." Remember that Anet fully intended Factions to be a stand-alone game. For that to be even close to true, Factions-only users needed access to those skills. You may argue that Anet should have just made those skill Core, but instead they chose to augment the "Canthan feel" of Factions by having skills named as they are.

I'm certain that Anet discussed the doubling of skills for merged accounts in their design reviews. It did not take them by surprise. They chose to implement this design, perhaps even considering that it *does* provide an advantage to users who purchase both chapters. They are in the business of selling games, after all.

As for "free echo..." Let's look at the other ways of doubling skills. For the elementalist, Glyph of Renewal. Causes your next spell to recharge instantly, takes up your elite slot. Provided you put only spells in your other slots, you may choose to instantly recharge any of seven spells on your bar, at a cost of only 5 energy, every 15 seconds. Pretty powerful, but hey, it's an elite.

For the mesmer, first you have Echo. Takes your elite slot, makes a copy of your next skill for 20 seconds. You're not limited to only spells, so you can copy any of your other 7 skill slots (except res signet, I believe) for 5 energy cost, every 30 seconds (or every 50 seconds, I'm not at my GW computer to test and don't remember if the recharge starts at 0 after the 20 seconds of copied skill, or just finishes after another 10 seconds). Pretty powerful, but hey, it's an elite.

Secondly, you have Arcane Echo. Non-elite, copies your next spell. Like GoR, if you take only spells for your other slots, you can create a copy of any of seven spells on your bar. Costs 15 energy and you can do it every 30 seconds (or 50 seconds, depending on where it starts the recharge as above.) Not as powerful, but it's not an elite, and if you need to copy spells and don't want to go /E or burn your elite slot, it's a pretty good option.

Combining them, you can take Echo and Archane Echo or Glyph and Archane Echo to create three copies of a spell, or a copy of two spells or a skill and a spell all at the same time. Pretty powerful.

Contrast that with the doubled skills. Players using two copies of a skill don't have anything *like* the flexibility of the above solutions. They are limited to recreating the affects of only those skills that are doubled, to start with, and let's face it, the doubled skills usually aren't worth the price of that extra skill slot. You'll note that there's no "Kunavaang's Wrath" copy of Meteor Storm in Factions, or "Kunavaang's Invocation" copy of Rodgort's Invocation.

The only reason we're having this discussion at all is that the doubled vampiric skill made playing an expertise-based ranger/necromancer a little more powerful. Touch rangers aren't new with Factions, they're just more prolific.

All of that being said, none of this relates to the topic at hand, which is about tactics and builds for Mesmers to deal with touch rangers. If you want to whinge about their very existence, there's already a lovely little flame war going on in the Ranger forum. Go argue it there.

Anybody else have a unique perspective on using mesmer skills (or Mesmer plus another class) to own touchers?

seven · Jun 29, 2006, 12:22 AM // 00:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

I like the way people make it so simple to use diversion on the touch rangers. Good luck spamming diversion on the other 3 touchers as well because they'll eat you alive while you are doing so, and yes, you can kite from them but you can't kite and cast at the same time. Keep in mind that the base casting time of Diversion is three seconds so you have to invest a lot in Fast Casting.

that's why for me, imho, recovery and diversion mesh well together.
you get the very high FC, as well as the 5s spammability of diversion. maximizing range before casting and only casting a single or few spells before re-establishing that safety range. combine that with constant smart kiting, and you'll reduce their window of opportunity to get close and do dmg.

two touch rangers is doable, but who would want to keep spam-casting through 4+ touchers ("the other three touchers as well") when you are their target? of course you will die,
it will be reckless to do so. 4-1 odds aren't in your favor to begin with. wait for your chance when
not all of them are targetting you, don't rush in.

but if that is the case when they are solely after you, then you can make it even more advantageous for your team. activate a speed buff, slap on a snare; and kite away ... 4 on you means less opponents for the rest of your team to worry about.

Dragannia · Jun 29, 2006, 12:26 AM // 00:26

As well as Blackout. Keeping BO on one, while MoR Diversion spamming the others, will eventually get their entire team shutdown.

TheYellowKid · Jun 29, 2006, 01:06 AM // 01:06

i used diversion today when i was testing Mes for the first time.. every touch ranger i faced got caught by diversion (and because i was using arcane echo aswell i usually caught both or one of their other attack skills)

i still dont see a major problem with Touch Rangers all ive done is add a snare into my build (which is useful in any situation anyway) or if i have a team make sure we have a couple multi-purpose skills between us or worst comes to worst run.. Also 4 of anything should kill you so 4 touch rangers isnt that big of a problem

MMSDome · Jun 29, 2006, 01:44 AM // 01:44

I use a similar build and as much as I hate touch rangers it doesnt work to well. Good touch rangers will rarely attack with a weapon, they just spam touch and bite till your dead, this build is a matter of if you can degen and run while slowing him down before he kills you. Ineptitude and Clumsiness arent to helpful for touch rangers, backfire is though

LouAl · Jun 29, 2006, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Robin, I like your point. For the record it is effectively a 50 second cooldown on both echo and A. echo (20 of replacement and then 30 sec cooldown). Also, you can copy anything except signet of capture (yes, even res signet).

What I really think is a funny idea would be to bring 2 skills that are duplicated and then both of the echos...not good for much but funny.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 29, 2006, 03:13 AM // 03:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by LouAl

btw Eaimirth, not to flame you at all, but a point is not "mute" becuase you come up with a good reason to disqualify it from consideration. I think that you mean to render a point "moot" by claiming it is hypothetical or of no relevance. (I am really not flaming you I just had to point it out because you used it a number of times and were clearly meaning moot)

No offense taken.

samifly · Jun 29, 2006, 09:02 AM // 09:02

*sigh* could we please for the love of god, talk about killing touch rangers as a mesmer, and not if they are/arenot cheap, an "exploit", or whatever else.