Curse

fb2000 · Jun 25, 2006, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

Well lets see...warriors yep, they die. Elementalists, double yep. Necromancers, yep. Ritualists, usally. Monks nope. Mesmers, nope if carrying temporary shutdown, slows, or energy denial.

well i dunno why everyone says warriors are OMFGOMGOMG doomed.. i saw even today how a fire elementalist dropped 3 touchers around him pretty much on his own (i was boon protting, only healed him once)

and the comment about no class being able to take down a monk doesnt make much sense to me.. assassins or warriors with a knockdown make short work of boon prots.. the question is time

Avarre · Jun 25, 2006, 02:56 PM // 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by fb2000

and the comment about no class being able to take down a monk doesnt make much sense to me.. assassins or warriors with a knockdown make short work of boon prots.. the question is time

Agreed, a properly timed 4-skill assassin chain or evisc spike / hammer spike can kill a boonprot practically instantly.

Monk kiting -> Bull's strike, crushing blow, irresistable blow, backbreaker, hit = bye monk

Or whatever chain of skills you choose.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 25, 2006, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Touch rangers without that much basic knowledge lack the tactical thought to avoid spamming into diversion.

No, not from my experience. A person can easily not know about focus swapping and know all about diversion.

Quote:

You cannot assume your enemy is stupid, ever.

Exactly so you cannot make the assumption above, I'm stating a fact, I have played energy denial in randoms a number of times against these touch rangers and not once have I had a problem with focus swapping.

Quote:

Possibly because less than 1/100 of touch rangers actually have any more skill than RA paladins. Even without -energy gear, the ranger can remove his staff/focus once they see what is happening.

Can, yes. You can take a horse to water but you cannot make him drink.

Quote:

If they can't even do that, they will die, no matter what tactic you take against them (that is effective).

Anyone will die to an effective tactic, of course degrees of effectiveness matter more than anything. Simply put the most effective strategies against touch rangers is energy denial and slow hexes, I admit that slow hexes are a great way of controlling them but their unreliablility moves me away from them.

Quote:

Hence my citing of imagined burden with degen-hex cover.

A boonprot can remove two hexes simultaneously with veil and inspired, thus you will need two cover hexes and the hope that the enemy team lacks additional hex removal.

Quote:

Any argument of balance or counters using RA as an example is horribly flawed, and you should know that. You are saying touch rangers are capable of defeating most other classes because the other classes in RA are clueless? The reason many people play touch rangers is the extremely low requirement of skill, in comparison. In more organized battles, touch rangers are nothing more than a gimmick.

Which we can say about IW, Single person Elementalist spikers, and half a dozen other builds. The touch ranger is not effective in GvG, HA, but in RA and TA (refuse to comment in arenas I have not played in). Gimics or not, they do their job well, and as long as the job is done the fact that it is a gimmic does not matter.

Quote:

So why are you basing anything off of RA? It is not an accurate representation of skills and balance.

I have not seen many touch rangers in TA, at least 1/5th as many. One could draw the conclusion that they are not as strong in organized play. Looks like a very accurate representation of skills and balance to me.
Little organization RA=alot of touch rangers
Mild organization TA=several touch rangers
Extreme organization GvG=no touch rangers tmk

Quote:

Nice group assumptions. I've played warrior in TA vs 4 touchers and won flawlessly, on burning map. It's just a matter of realizing you can't stand still, and you have to kite and build adren, then quickly smash down 1 ranger at a time, while the rest of the group pressures.

A warrior winning against a touch ranger is a poor play on their part, with dodge, a duplicate of dodge, escape, and throw dirt you should not have been able to land a hit one them.

Quote:

That's just one example, and saying that those classes are wear against touch rangers is a very poor indication of your own capabilities.

Feh; insults are nothing when the person in question assumes more than he knows

Quote:

I have lost once to 4 touchers. This was the first time we fought them and we did not have a co-ordinated strategy. The flawless win mentioned was the next time we met that team in TA, after we had set on what we would do in that situation.

Great job

Quote:

It's a pity that GW isn't a 1v1-based game to test your assumptions though.

We can take them into scrimmages to find out any time; I believe my guild makes use of this feature more than many other guilds in order to test build vs build.

Quote:

Going out on a limb here and saying because they aren't. Dying to touch rangers involves one of the following situations - failure to kite, failure to co-ordinate team, non-toucher enemies causing pressure/kd, etc. The first two are your own failures, and the third is not the consequence of the toucher so much as the additional factor.

I wouldn't go as far as saying "my own failures" sure my skill in diplomancy need some work, but the last time anyone was able to convince a wammo that he/she knew best the server crashed. Failure to kite as mentioned before is more common due to hex removal, it is only the failure of the slow hexer, if you have one, that is. The third point I agree with you with.

Quote:

-PvE is not organized PvP

It was to support that I, indeed, use hexes and I know how to handle them to great effect.

Quote:

-You're using RA as a PvP example.

And RA is pvp.

Quote:

To summarize, you keep your experiences in RA (where you can't make a proper analysis or comparison), TA (which has been rebuked to death), and ignore the varying other places touchers are used, most of which they are crushed and violated in, by snares, degen, mms, even ele nukers. In large open battlefields they're mobilefaction, unless the player on the other side is very well prepared. As you said, this is less than 1/100.

Of course I keep my experiences in RA and TA! I have yet to see a touch ranger in GvG and I assume they have the same amount of popularity in HA. It would make sence that they would lose in organized pvp and that is my main point actually. Snares are less viable in un-organized pvp in that teammates stand next to touch rangers without running at all, allowing them to take damage and the ranger to regenerate health. I have yet to see how you can call RA a place where "you can't make a proper analysis or comparison"; it is a arena like the others, and strategy regarding the arena has a flavor of a different color in context to the other arenas.

Quote:

Maybe not 'sucks' but you have said it was 'stupid'

When used to defend against a touch ranger yes, it will do nothing but buy you 6 seconds of time, less than that if the ranger chooses to ignore it and fodder the skill in order to hit you with touches.

Quote:

You continue to be a source of amusement during farming runs as always, Eaimirth.

Glad you enjoy it.

Dragannia · Jun 26, 2006, 04:34 AM // 04:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

Lets be serious shall we? You have a touch necro in your face, and you cast diversion. He is either A. Going to ignore it and kill you by using a stance as a fodder skill, B. Wait it out and make you wonder what makes diversion so much different than a blackout wanna be, or prove what an idiot he is by choosing option C. using a key skill through diversion.

Diversion has a 3 second cast time on it, it shows the world you are casting it, I highly doubt any decent pvp player would fall for such a stupid defence. Get real. Diversion is more of a "put pressure on target" skill, simply a threat to stop a skill from comming. You give them the choice to let it come, and in the end they make the choice whether it does so or not. Unless you have a method of healing, diversion will not save you.

Do you seriously believe what you are saying? Firstly, your argument is flawed, as you're taking the worst case scenario, and not the one which comes most often. A touch ranger in a TA team is going to go for the enemy Monk. In the slight off chance he DOES go for you, the point is to catch their skills. You might as well say that Diversion does not work against boonprots, which it blatantly does, as you do catch Reversal, and Guardian, and etc. Not to mention that the two touch skills have a 3/4 second cast time, which a) makes it hard to stop, and b) the nature of the spammability of them makes it extremely predicatible and easy to catch.
Second, he's in your face. So...what? It means he isn't in your Monk's face, and you've sacrificed a Mesmer, who can kite better than the Monk, stopping only once every few seconds to cast Diversion, or Blackout, the enemy Monk. Congratulations, you've cut down on one of the enemy team's damagers, while you're still at half or more capacity.

If they are on your Monk, it makes it even easier. Seriously. They will not stop Vamp Touching and Vamp Biting, because it's all they can do. Try it some time. The problem with you is that I suspect you think that Diversion is bad because everyone uses it, even though in theory it works well, and in practice better.

And unless you're stupid, you're going to have around 10 points in FC, reducing Diversion to about a 1.5 second cast time.

And for your information, I run Diversion and Blackout, which complement each other extremely well. For example, counting the second until Ward Against Melee runs out, is an excellent use for Diversion, which Blackout simply cannot do (because once your BO runs out they can simply cast it again).

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 26, 2006, 05:12 AM // 05:12

'course you have to actually "catch" them using the skill; in this case being able to predict them reaching the target within a few fractions of a second, then hoping they do not have the reflexes needed to cancel a 3/4second skill. They should be tipped off on to watch for diversion as it is a mesmer skill, and you are a mesmer-similar to that they are R/N you are tipped off that they are a touch ranger. It is entirely reasonable to know that diversion is comming and to avoid it.

Once again; I have never said diversion is bad, I said using diversion as a defence against a touch ranger is stupid, and it is. It is avoided, or foddered.

Fine; 10 points in fast casting netting you a 1.95 second cast time...no where near 1.5. Heck 16 in fast casting nets you 1.51 which is "close" but no cigar.

Sab · Jun 26, 2006, 05:42 AM // 05:42

In practice you'll be surprised how easy it is to catch a touch skill with Diversion. If you see a Touch Ranger alternating Vampiric Touch & Bite, there's an extremely good chance you'll catch one of them. You don't even have to time your Diversion. They simply do not self-cancel, nor do they use another skill as Diversion-fodder. This is speaking from experience, not from theory.

And Touch Rangers won't be tipped off to watch out for Diversion as:
- Not all Mesmers use Diversion (duh...out of all Mesmers you should know that, Eaimirth)
- They won't be watching you while they're spamming Touch & Bite on the Monk

Sha Noran · Jun 26, 2006, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Condoning Blackout and then say Crippling Anguish sucks versus touchers is oxymoronic. Both require that you apply the skill and then kite away.

As for Diversion... Diversioning one of a Toucher's touch skills owns them. Its particualrly good against any build where skills are spammed heavily... the Toucher most likely isn't even going to be doing anything except mashing buttons, and therefore is most likely easily caught by a Diversion.

I'd also like to point out that you shouldn't really be specing your whole build to beat a TR (or any single build)... Crippling Anguish+PvP=lol. Diversion is a multipurpose skill that compliments any Dom build well, and can be used effectively versus a Toucher.

Dragannia · Jun 26, 2006, 12:41 PM // 12:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

'd also like to point out that you shouldn't really be specing your whole build to beat a TR (or any single build)... Crippling Anguish+PvP=lol.

Disagreed. Slowdown effects are very powerful in PvP, especially Arenas (which is where you'll find TRs). The reason being is that they help your warriors immensely.

Sha Noran · Jun 26, 2006, 01:21 PM // 13:21

I can't disagree they're powerful, but using your Elite slot for it seems a bit rash.

holden · Jun 26, 2006, 02:14 PM // 14:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sha Noran

Condoning Blackout and then say Crippling Anguish sucks versus touchers is oxymoronic. Both require that you apply the skill and then kite away.

As for Diversion... Diversioning one of a Toucher's touch skills owns them. Its particualrly good against any build where skills are spammed heavily... the Toucher most likely isn't even going to be doing anything except mashing buttons, and therefore is most likely easily caught by a Diversion.

I'd also like to point out that you shouldn't really be specing your whole build to beat a TR (or any single build)... Crippling Anguish+PvP=lol. Diversion is a multipurpose skill that compliments any Dom build well, and can be used effectively versus a Toucher.

this is the truth

Taurus · Jun 26, 2006, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Stupid thread with stupid people in it ( cept me ).
IMO close it

holden · Jun 26, 2006, 03:18 PM // 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taurus

Stupid thread with stupid people in it ( cept me ).
IMO close it

comeon. i expect a little more from a wammo.

Robin_Anadri · Jun 27, 2006, 06:24 PM // 18:24

I found Crippling Anguish to be very effective in my AB romps last night. In fact, in combination with my alliance mate running cripshot + apply poison, we got no less than 3 touch rangers to ragequit.

Couldn't take being killed over and over and having us dance the jig and hoochie dance on their corpses.

This is what I ran:

Fast Cast 9 (6 + 3)
Illusion 16 (12 + 1 + 3)
Inspirat. 13 (11 + 2)

Crippling Anguish {e}
Conjure Phantasm
Accumulated Pain
Images of Remorse
Clumsiness
Mantra of Persistence
Energy Tap
Ether Feast

89% extra illusion hex duration from mantra, 50% slow, 12 degen, 97 dmg interrupting an attack, and a deep wound. GG *any* char.

I think tonight I'm going to play with going Me/E and bringing Ice Prison.

seven · Jun 27, 2006, 11:53 PM // 23:53

just from my own personal experiences in pvp,

i have yet to encounter a touch ranger that can't be kept in line using a recovery-diversion spam.
i can't fanthom why some people think diversion is a "stupid" defense against touchers when
personally, i have been in several situations where several touchers try to defeat me ... and few exchanges later they switch targets with a few and scattered skills left.

it seems they're not so keen on sacrificing other skills as fodder either. once they realize diversion can easily be recast again after 5 seconds, waiting it out or skill sacrificing doesn't even matter. with high fc and dom complimenting both recovery and diversion, a little kite run - quick cast - kite run cycle most of the times can set it up. whether they chose to wait it out or sacrifice a whole skillbar (both in vain), is an advantage for your team.

makosi · Jun 28, 2006, 12:15 AM // 00:15

This thread shouldn't even exist, in fact, its a tradgedy that it does. Anet are scared to nerf the toucher exploit because of the grief they get from the GW community. If anet don't fix it, then i want one of their staff to personally come to my house and scratch off the "it will always be your skill that earns your victory or defeat" off of my 3 GW boxes.

Back to business...

Diversion and illusion snares are the best counter in my experience. Yet again there's no point in going to arenas as a mesmer because you get pounded immediately.

Robin_Anadri · Jun 28, 2006, 12:41 AM // 00:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

This thread shouldn't even exist, in fact, its a tradgedy that it does. Anet are scared to nerf the toucher exploit because of the grief they get from the GW community. If anet don't fix it, then i want one of their staff to personally come to my house and scratch off the "it will always be your skill that earns your victory or defeat" off of my 3 GW boxes.

Well, I'll respond, as the bringer of this "tragic" thread. I fail to see your logic. Beyond arguing about the build being an "exploit" (it's not), there is nothing to refute the truth that it is skill that earns victory or defeat. This thread is about skill earning victory. A skilled mesmer eats touch rangers for lunch. Seems like the statement on the box holds true. A skilled touch ranger will eat the unprepared/unskilled for lunch. Box blurb still true. A stupid/unskilled mesmer will die quickly to just about anybody, as will a stupid/unskilled ranger.

Quote:

Back to business...

Diversion and illusion snares are the best counter in my experience. Yet again there's no point in going to arenas as a mesmer because you get pounded immediately.

Mesmers are attacked first precisely because they're a formidable threat. But a skilled mesmer will prevail anyway, as many posters to this forum will confirm from their own experience. Perhaps you should modify your statement to "There's no point for ME to go to arenas as a mesmer, because I lack the skill to survive."

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 28, 2006, 01:53 AM // 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin_Anadri

"There's no point for ME to go to arenas as a mesmer, because I lack the skill to survive."

Hold it right there.
He does have a point; of the three highest targets in the random arenas, mesmers have the least amount of defenses.
Monks are difficult to kill, rits are hard to kill, mesmers...well they have a limited range of healing skills (still two isn't it?) and only have access to a "viable" defensive stance if they have quite a few points sinked into illusion magic.

Still stands true today
Targeted first
1. monks or mesmers
2. rits
3. elementalists
4. necromancers
5. rangers
6. assassins
7. warriors

In terms of defensive ability
1. monks
2. rits
3. warriors
4. elementalists
5. rangers
6. assassins
7. mesmers
8. necros

The above are generalitys but should prove the point nonetheless. He words do have some wisdom behind them.

Sab · Jun 28, 2006, 02:54 AM // 02:54

Kite, and take Distortion if you're worried about getting pommeled.

Or, if we're still on the topic of Touch Rangers, then take Diversion or Illusion snares.

Ari Shiningstar · Jun 28, 2006, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Empathy only works if they melee, smart ones don't melee.

Avarre · Jun 28, 2006, 02:35 PM // 14:35

In terms of RA, there is definitely a point there. I don't play RA anymore (I unlocked everything in PvE ages ago) but when I did I usually played something that can fit any situation and less dependence... monk or war, typically.

Mesmer for TA/HA/GvG!