Curse

ubermancer · Jun 24, 2006, 12:02 PM // 12:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragannia

Have you even tested that strategy out? Backfire...doesn't work on skills. Empathy...doesn't work on skills. Nice try, though.

Yes it clearly owns in RA and thus high-end GVG, though, so I dont know what your talking about. All the leet players and cool kids use empathy and backfire against TR's.

Avarre · Jun 24, 2006, 03:08 PM // 15:08

All those leet players just aspire to be like me, where I kill TRs with conjure phantasm.

Terra Xin · Jun 24, 2006, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

All those leet players just aspire to be like me, where I kill TRs with conjure phantasm.

My lady, you are a Mesmer, please use phrases that are.... classier, than "leet" ^^

I'm just hoping that Touch Ranger phase will die out soon, I'm beginning to target them over monks...

Robin_Anadri · Jun 24, 2006, 04:14 PM // 16:14

Heh. Well, for reference purposes, last night in a single AB I killed 4-5 touch rangers 2-3 times each with a variation on the build I posted (I ditched clumsiness for Kitah's Burden, the Factions copy of Ethereal Burden, so I could have two available.) And danced the jig on their bodies each time. And the stupid touchers triggered the damage from Ineptitude *every time.* That plus deep wound and 9 degen equalled dead touch ranger real quick like.

Avarre · Jun 24, 2006, 04:42 PM // 16:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terra Xin

My lady, you are a Mesmer, please use phrases that are.... classier, than "leet" ^^

I'm just hoping that Touch Ranger phase will die out soon, I'm beginning to target them over monks...

I was continuing on from ubermancer's post

Terra Xin · Jun 24, 2006, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin_Anadri

Heh. Well, for reference purposes, last night in a single AB I killed 4-5 touch rangers 2-3 times each with a variation on the build I posted (I ditched clumsiness for Kitah's Burden, the Factions copy of Ethereal Burden, so I could have two available.) And danced the jig on their bodies each time. And the stupid touchers triggered the damage from Ineptitude *every time.* That plus deep wound and 9 degen equalled dead touch ranger real quick like.

the /dance emote is a must action to perform. It hexes them with an inheret illusionary spell "discourage and ragequit^^"

Quote:

I was continuing on from ubermancer's post

*Brushes out the creases in his suit and bows*

Evilsod · Jun 24, 2006, 06:19 PM // 18:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin_Anadri

Heh. Well, for reference purposes, last night in a single AB I killed 4-5 touch rangers 2-3 times each with a variation on the build I posted (I ditched clumsiness for Kitah's Burden, the Factions copy of Ethereal Burden, so I could have two available.) And danced the jig on their bodies each time. And the stupid touchers triggered the damage from Ineptitude *every time.* That plus deep wound and 9 degen equalled dead touch ranger real quick like.

That happened in the first of many ABs i did yesterday

3 Touch Rangers and 1 other Ranger in a group met us at the side. We stood on a hill for a bit as they were using Vamp Gaze too. Then we both charged... Crippling Shot w/ Apply Poison and Hunters Shot, sit back and laugh

Plus 1 of my allies had Rigor Mortis. Another 1 was a touch ranger so they just negated each other and our monk.

Safe to say we wiped them out quite well... although we did get some help from the Elite Elementalists that we were stood next to, but who remembers that part

SnipiousMax · Jun 25, 2006, 03:12 AM // 03:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin_Anadri

...touchers triggered the damage from Ineptitude *every time.*

I knew it!!

Dragannia · Jun 25, 2006, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terra Xin

My lady, you are a Mesmer, please use phrases that are.... classier, than "leet" ^^

I'm just hoping that Touch Ranger phase will die out soon, I'm beginning to target them over monks...

I don't get it Avarre. Why does everyone automatically assume you're a female?

Guh, this is why I don't play female characters. Everyone instantly assumes you're a hawt chix, even though 99.9999999999% of female characters in any game are male.

Avarre · Jun 25, 2006, 04:11 AM // 04:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragannia

I don't get it Avarre. Why does everyone automatically assume you're a female?

Guh, this is why I don't play female characters. Everyone instantly assumes you're a hawt chix, even though 99.9999999999% of female characters in any game are male.

Because imagining a crazy, power-farming, female mesmer is alot more fun.

ubermancer · Jun 25, 2006, 05:32 AM // 05:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Because imagining a crazy, power-farming, female mesmer is alot more fun.

You have a female avatar, that contributes to it.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 25, 2006, 06:41 AM // 06:41

Crippling anguish is the best answer on paper; however complications diminish the power of it.
-popularity of boonprot
-stupidity of teammates

Black out is grand, as are all purpose interrupts.
Distracting shot is...well as great as it always is, too bad its not the mesmer's.

Diversion I question; say you are successful in having them "fodder" their entire bar allowing them to cast their touch 8 times. 65x8=520...wow you're dead. Gee that really stinks...ya know being dead. You could make the arguement that using skills as "fodder" uses energy, but I could just as easily mute it by saying that diversion+MoR will use just as much if not more...so I'm pretty sure we can ignore that.

IW can win against the ranger; however it is very very close and difficult to do so. (MUST be Me/R, MUST use pet, MUST use pet attacks, MUST have some of said attacks hit, etc. etc.)

So this leaves us with energy denial. Which is great to be honest. It doesn't rely on teammates intellegence, nor the opposition not having a counter. Using energy tap, ether feast, and energy drain will put a large dent into a touch ranger's energy pool. Following up with simple blood spike nukes (life siphon shadow strike vamparic gaze etc.) and the fight should end quickly and decisivly.

*looks at Avarre comments and sighs*

Avarre · Jun 25, 2006, 07:04 AM // 07:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

*looks at Avarre comments and sighs*

On paper, your whole thing works. In reality, it doesn't.

You're not going to face touchers outside TA/RA/AB. In TA, typically touchers don't team with monks (they have selfheals, so they think). Degen is the most powerful tool to kill them. Even if they are teamed with a monk, you're supposed to be able to defeat that to get your hexes through anyway, or you will have a serious problem versus a real time.

In AB, you can kite them out and rip them apart to your leisure.

I sigh when I read your posts, they lack substance.

Dragannia · Jun 25, 2006, 07:12 AM // 07:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

Diversion I question; say you are successful in having them "fodder" their entire bar allowing them to cast their touch 8 times. 65x8=520...wow you're dead. Gee that really stinks...ya know being dead. You could make the arguement that using skills as "fodder" uses energy, but I could just as easily mute it by saying that diversion+MoR will use just as much if not more...so I'm pretty sure we can ignore that.

You realise that Touch Rangers are about the most predicatable things in Guild Wars? They walk up to someone. Oh, what are they going to do? Use Vamp Gaze? No, TRs walk up to someone and go: Vamp Touch, Vamp Bite, Vamp Touch, Vamp Bite, and etc. Now, if you have Diversion, you wait for them to walk up to someone, and with FC, you cast it on them. Now it goes something like: Vamp Touch, Vamp Bite...Vamp Bite.............

Hurray, you've rendered one person on their team USELESS. Now, use Ether Feast or have a Monk heal you.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 25, 2006, 07:27 AM // 07:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

On paper, your whole thing works. In reality, it doesn't.

You're not going to face touchers outside TA/RA/AB. In TA, typically touchers don't team with monks (they have selfheals, so they think). Degen is the most powerful tool to kill them. Even if they are teamed with a monk, you're supposed to be able to defeat that to get your hexes through anyway, or you will have a serious problem versus a real time.

In AB, you can kite them out and rip them apart to your leisure.

I sigh when I read your posts, they lack substance.

Perhaps you misunderstood me (yet again, "Avarre comments" being the subject, not "Avarre's comments"); I was commenting on the posts about you off the topic of the thread in your self pursuit of self fame which continues to agrivate me. It still mystifys me how you change every topic you post into a "personal blog" about yourself...I find it...annoying.

Of course you arn't going to face touch rangers outside of TA/RA. That is obvious. I don't see your point here.

In RA anguish is often rended useless as people literally stand next to the ranger and attack, cast spells, or whatever and allow the ranger to kill them+gain life while doing so.

Show me any class that can take down a boonprot solo and you have my kudos for life, until then don't give me any of this "you're supposed to defeat that to get your hexes through" bullshit

Maybe I am just inefficient with hexes

or...not

Lets look at the touch ranger abit more in depth,
natural armor renders elementalists next to useless (as if they were useful...)
stances+ailments render warriors and assassins next to useless
ritualists have no direct answer to them, in line with the elementalists
necromancers have no direct answer outside of lifetaps...in which they get beat by the ranger, no direct necromancer hexes affect the ranger
rangers have cripple, which is often plague'd to someone else other than that little to no answers excluding distracting shot which is difficult to time (or many claim although I have had no difficulty timing it)
mesmers have slow hexes, shut down skills, interrupts, and energy denial.
-slow hexes are great if your team cooperates with you and they are not removed.
-shut down skills are great for buying time, NOT for killing the target (in this case) (blackout obviously being the better of the two vs a touch ranger)
-interrupts are in the same class as shut down skills
-energy denial will work, 100% of the time, does not rely on teammates or opposing team weakness.

So we have slowing movement hexes and energy denial...or to make it easier
illusion magic+fast casting+1 other(optional)
or
inspiration magic/domination magic+fast casting+1 other(optional)

Both are valid answers, however draining 20 energy off the top layer of the ranger the moment he enters battle greatly appeals to me. It is a sure fire; non conditional path to victory. Hexes are conditional energy denial is not. Now by which one is more effective in their giving "prime scenarios" and probability of those scenarios depends on the metagame and the player. However I believe energy denial to be the better option of the two regarding a counter for the ranger and for other builds in general.

Lack substance? Think again Avarre. Wanna withdraw that last comment? I'm williing to bet it was misdirected due to misunderstanding of my post.

-edit-

Quote:

You realise that Touch Rangers are about the most predicatable things in Guild Wars? They walk up to someone. Oh, what are they going to do? Use Vamp Gaze? No, TRs walk up to someone and go: Vamp Touch, Vamp Bite, Vamp Touch, Vamp Bite, and etc. Now, if you have Diversion, you wait for them to walk up to someone, and with FC, you cast it on them. Now it goes something like: Vamp Touch, Vamp Bite...Vamp Bite.............

Hurray, you've rendered one person on their team USELESS. Now, use Ether Feast or have a Monk heal you.

Yes lets rely on the almighty monk to solve all of our problems. As you rely on him for a heal I'm sure the touch ranger can snag a hex removal (or better yet have diversin shattered by his team's mesmer; seriously we can point out "ohh my teammate can do THIS" all day but where does that get us?)

Lets be serious shall we? You have a touch necro in your face, and you cast diversion. He is either A. Going to ignore it and kill you by using a stance as a fodder skill, B. Wait it out and make you wonder what makes diversion so much different than a blackout wanna be, or prove what an idiot he is by choosing option C. using a key skill through diversion.

Diversion has a 3 second cast time on it, it shows the world you are casting it, I highly doubt any decent pvp player would fall for such a stupid defence. Get real. Diversion is more of a "put pressure on target" skill, simply a threat to stop a skill from comming. You give them the choice to let it come, and in the end they make the choice whether it does so or not. Unless you have a method of healing, diversion will not save you.

Themis · Jun 25, 2006, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Imo, in TA/RA e-denial and shutdown work fine, although in RA they depend on the team's ability to deal a lot of damage quickly : energy regenerates and shutdown has a time limit. So, unless the Mesmer is dedicated against the Ranger, it doesn't work on the long term.

In AB, though, i think that the illusion build (heavy degen and movement slowdown) works the best, moreover, it is efficient againt all classes.

TRangers' hype won't last for long, if they continually face slowdown and 9-10 degen. It's a simple build, made to generate a quick and effortless victory. Not to oblige them to THINK of how to face stressing situations... And believe me : movement prison with heavy degen is a lot of stress

Lets Get to Healing · Jun 25, 2006, 08:54 AM // 08:54

Decent build, but id e-denial myself.

Avarre · Jun 25, 2006, 12:57 PM // 12:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

energy denial will work, 100% of the time, does not rely on teammates or opposing team weakness.

Even a touch ranger can focus swap. So you would be relying on your opponent's inability to do so. Edenial works, sure, but it's wasted trying to deny a touch ranger, which isn't really even a threat if you simply outkite it, throw on some hexes (yes, diversion works. You should try it in AB Eaimirth, except you don't have factions anyway).

Speaking from experience in AB, TA, Aspenwood and Jade Quarry, degen and snares completely grind touch rangers into the ground. A touch ranger has no survival capability unless they can attack - if they can't attack, they no longer need shutdown as they no longer have any useful function (they are, in fact, shutdown 100% when snared). Degen becomes the most efficient way to deal with them when they no longer have anything to fight with, as it requires the least attention, and covers your snare (imagined burden can be kept up permanently with persistance (another feature of degen).

No halfway decent player can die to touch rangers alone, simply because they are so easy to avoid and negate. This isn't even a questionable factor.

Eaimirth, you have never played the builds you are protesting against because you deny them on paper. You have never played in the arenas we are citing either. You have no basis to even begin to argue except your stubbornness.

Quote:

Show me any class that can take down a boonprot solo and you have my kudos for life, until then don't give me any of this "you're supposed to defeat that to get your hexes through" bullshit
Maybe I am just inefficient with hexes or...not

Boonprots have 1, sometimes 2 hex removals to target on other people. If your build can be comepletely countered by veil and inspired (the usual max being brought), then you are an embarrasment to mesmers. Cover hexing and using quick-recharging hexes, as well as moderate pressure on the boonprot are enough in TA/AB/Aspen/Jade to apply the effects you want. Nobody said you had to take down the boonprot - the purpose is to outpressure their healing capabilities, especially in the case of degen. We are not discussing GvG because... if you are losing to touchers in GvG... lol?

As far as you show, you don't run any hex builds anyway. Not of the type any of us are talking about. Your logic once again returns to 'diversion sucks, blackout is better so thats good'.

Quote:

Lack substance? Think again Avarre. Wanna withdraw that last comment? I'm williing to bet it was misdirected due to misunderstanding of my post.

No, I'm pretty sure I'll stay with that.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 25, 2006, 02:13 PM // 14:13

Alrighty; LET THE DUEL COMMENCE!

Even a focus ranger can focus swap; however I have never seen a ranger carry focus swapping gear simply because of two reasons; 1. They either do not consider energy denial a threat (simply because they have never encountered it or they assume it will be on another more promising target IE their boonprot) or 2. They are not experienced enough to know how to focus swap.

Generally its 1 or 2; but I'm pretty sure we can mute the point of ranger focus swapping. I carry -energy gear into RA, but thats because I'm paranoid. I'm more than willing to bet if you took wither+malaise and cast it on every touch ranger in sight, less than 1/100 would be able to deal with it.

Of course anything "isn't a threat" if you can outkite it, however these are touch rangers bringing dodge, escape, or god knows what with them. I'm not saying that they are impossible to kite, I am saying that they are significantly the most difficult build TO kite (with exclusion to say...normal rangers and the random elementalist). Without a slow skill on them 24/7 they are impossible to kite.

I'm not slamming degen, I am saying that most RA players do not understand the novel concept of "running when they are out matched" so the elementalist will continue to nuke the touch ranger at point blank range because the ranger is hurting him. He does not understand that he should run from warriors, touch rangers, mesmers carrying blackout, etc. The idea of retreat is non-existent. Heck I've had matches were only two people zone in, one being myself and the other person being a necro (I assumed minion master simply because of this next action)...He rushes out to face the opposing team! By himself, I do not know if he expected me to follow him or if he thought he could take them all; personally I do not comprehend what got into his head. Regardless the other two members of our team loaded in and asked "where is the necro?" anyway we won the match despite the stupidity of our fallen friend.

Point, most RA players are stupid.
-little focus swapping
-no kiting

Quote:

No halfway decent player can die to touch rangers alone, simply because they are so easy to avoid and negate. This isn't even a questionable factor.

Well lets see...warriors yep, they die. Elementalists, double yep. Necromancers, yep. Ritualists, usally. Monks nope. Mesmers, nope if carrying temporary shutdown, slows, or energy denial.

I have no idea where you get the train of thought that "touch rangers are not a threat"
They are, that is why this thread is here. To obtain the best build to counter the threat.
Now to take the questions about me.

Quote:

As far as you show, you don't run any hex builds anyway

Suuuuuure

Lets see...I wrote a guide on how to solo the desert with a degen mesmer, I constantly push towards the power of mantra of persistence, I praise the power of IoR...yet you think I don't run any hex builds? 1 out of 7 times I will be running anguish on my bar with a mantra of persistence backing it. The reason it is 7 times is because RA players can not kite, they do not understand if there is a warrior hurting them that they can move away. The build's primary strength is thus rendered worthless when paired with an incompetent team which is my point above. My point here being that you should do more research than just "assuming" that I don't run the builds I discuss. For the record; I play the builds I discuss.

Quote:

You have never played in the arenas we are citing either. You have no basis to argue.

You know there is a strange coincidence that I have never used those arenas in my examples; nor talked about those arenas at all. Strange thing that. People keep their arguements based on their experience Avarre; thus I keep my arguements based on RA/TA, not AB "Jade Quarry" or whatever realms you choose.

Quote:

'diversion sucks, blackout is better so thats good'

Ohh joy a quote about me which I have never actually stated. I first off have never said "diversion sucks" and I have always said it is a valid and powerful skill. I have however said that "blackout is better".

Quote:

No, I'm pretty sure I'll stay with that.

'k your choice, I refuse to stoop to the level of insults and you can choose to go there if you wish however I will not follow.

Avarre · Jun 25, 2006, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

Alrighty; LET THE DUEL COMMENCE!

Even a focus ranger can focus swap; however I have never seen a ranger carry focus swapping gear simply because of two reasons; 1. They either do not consider energy denial a threat (simply because they have never encountered it or they assume it will be on another more promising target IE their boonprot) or 2. They are not experienced enough to know how to focus swap.

Touch rangers without that much basic knowledge lack the tactical thought to avoid spamming into diversion. You cannot assume your enemy is stupid, ever.

Quote:

Generally its 1 or 2; but I'm pretty sure we can mute the point of ranger focus swapping. I carry -energy gear into RA, but thats because I'm paranoid. I'm more than willing to bet if you took wither+malaise and cast it on every touch ranger in sight, less than 1/100 would be able to deal with it.

Possibly because less than 1/100 of touch rangers actually have any more skill than RA paladins. Even without -energy gear, the ranger can remove his staff/focus once they see what is happening. If they can't even do that, they will die, no matter what tactic you take against them (that is effective).

Quote:

Of course anything "isn't a threat" if you can outkite it, however these are touch rangers bringing dodge, escape, or god knows what with them. I'm not saying that they are impossible to kite, I am saying that they are significantly the most difficult build TO kite (with exclusion to say...normal rangers and the random elementalist). Without a slow skill on them 24/7 they are impossible to kite.

Hence my citing of imagined burden with degen-hex cover.

Quote:

I'm not slamming degen, I am saying that most RA players do not understand the novel concept of "running when they are out matched" so the elementalist will continue to nuke the touch ranger at point blank range because the ranger is hurting him. He does not understand that he should run from warriors, touch rangers, mesmers carrying blackout, etc. The idea of retreat is non-existent. Heck I've had matches were only two people zone in, one being myself and the other person being a necro (I assumed minion master simply because of this next action)...He rushes out to face the opposing team! By himself, I do not know if he expected me to follow him or if he thought he could take them all; personally I do not comprehend what got into his head. Regardless the other two members of our team loaded in and asked "where is the necro?" anyway we won the match despite the stupidity of our fallen friend.

Any argument of balance or counters using RA as an example is horribly flawed, and you should know that. You are saying touch rangers are capable of defeating most other classes because the other classes in RA are clueless? The reason many people play touch rangers is the extremely low requirement of skill, in comparison. In more organized battles, touch rangers are nothing more than a gimmick.

Quote:

Point, most RA players are stupid.
-little focus swapping
-no kiting

So why are you basing anything off of RA? It is not an accurate representation of skills and balance.

Quote:

Well lets see...warriors yep, they die. Elementalists, double yep. Necromancers, yep. Ritualists, usally. Monks nope. Mesmers, nope if carrying temporary shutdown, slows, or energy denial.

Nice group assumptions. I've played warrior in TA vs 4 touchers and won flawlessly, on burning map. It's just a matter of realizing you can't stand still, and you have to kite and build adren, then quickly smash down 1 ranger at a time, while the rest of the group pressures. That's just one example, and saying that those classes are wear against touch rangers is a very poor indication of your own capabilities.

I have lost once to 4 touchers. This was the first time we fought them and we did not have a co-ordinated strategy. The flawless win mentioned was the next time we met that team in TA, after we had set on what we would do in that situation.

It's a pity that GW isn't a 1v1-based game to test your assumptions though.

Quote:

I have no idea where you get the train of thought that "touch rangers are not a threat"
They are, that is why this thread is here. To obtain the best build to counter the threat.

Going out on a limb here and saying because they aren't. Dying to touch rangers involves one of the following situations - failure to kite, failure to co-ordinate team, non-toucher enemies causing pressure/kd, etc. The first two are your own failures, and the third is not the consequence of the toucher so much as the additional factor.

Quote:

Suuuuuure

Lets see...I wrote a guide on how to solo the desert with a degen mesmer, I constantly push towards the power of mantra of persistence, I praise the power of IoR...yet you think I don't run any hex builds? 1 out of 7 times I will be running anguish on my bar with a mantra of persistence backing it. The reason it is 7 times is because RA players can not kite, they do not understand if there is a warrior hurting them that they can move away. The build's primary strength is thus rendered worthless when paired with an incompetent team which is my point above. My point here being that you should do more research than just "assuming" that I don't run the builds I discuss. For the record; I play the builds I discuss.

Sigh...

-PvE is not organized PvP
-You're using RA as a PvP example. To quote ubermancer from this thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ubermancer

Yes it clearly owns in RA and thus high-end GVG, though, so I dont know what your talking about.

Quote:

You know there is a strange coincidence that I have never used those arenas in my examples; nor talked about those arenas at all. Strange thing that. People keep their arguements based on their experience Avarre; thus I keep my arguements based on RA/TA, not AB "Jade Quarry" or whatever realms you choose.

To summarize, you keep your experiences in RA (where you can't make a proper analysis or comparison), TA (which has been rebuked to death), and ignore the varying other places touchers are used, most of which they are crushed and violated in, by snares, degen, mms, even ele nukers. In large open battlefields they're mobilefaction, unless the player on the other side is very well prepared. As you said, this is less than 1/100.

Quote:

Ohh joy a quote about me which I have never actually stated. I first off have never said "diversion sucks" and I have always said it is a valid and powerful skill. I have however said that "blackout is better".

Quote:

Diversion has a 3 second cast time on it, it shows the world you are casting it, I highly doubt any decent pvp player would fall for such a stupid defence.

Maybe not 'sucks' but you have said it was 'stupid', and thats just the first post I scrolled to. And there's a lot more where those came from.

Quote:

'k your choice, I refuse to stoop to the level of insults and you can choose to go there if you wish however I will not follow.

You continue to be a source of amusement during farming runs as always, Eaimirth.