Curse

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 30, 2006, 07:59 PM // 19:59

Quote:

Well Me/Mo... 42/1.33 = like 31.5 damage a second, with no way to stop kiting, oh noes! Not until we get an ias enchant...

Well I'm sorta scared about 42/.5 for 84 dps >.> with holy veil as a cover enchantment to boot XD using mesmer skills to stop kiting.

But it still would be low on defenses etc. etc. and 84 dps isn't that much higher than the me/r that we have (and love =p) now. Although it would look cool...and I wouldn't have to change 2ndarys as often.

Maybe in next expansion...(IF I ever get the first one; man NOW I'm missing an event because they havn't shipped it...gosh forget balance anet at least send us oklahomans the game...)
-edit-
It would be 42/1.33/.5 wouldn't it? (<-rhetorical) What gives?

Robin_Anadri · Jun 30, 2006, 09:51 PM // 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Themis

How funny Robin_Anadri... but wait ! You've stated in another thread (@Rangers forum) and about the same subject the following :

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin_Anadri

Things like touch rangers serve as object lessons for those willing to learn. The vampires have been the greatest force in recent memory to teach PvPers the importance of kiting, snares, and degen. Those who learn these lessons are better players for it. Those who refuse to learn will continue to get pwnt. Such is the nature of the game.

So ? Where is the truth dear chameleon ?

Are you blinded by Ineptitude ?

I'm pleased that you're such an avid reader of my posts. This exchange, however, grows tiresome. Suffice it to say, despite your attempt to equivocate them, the excerpt from my post *is* an example of a clear statement, containing a completely developed thought with explanation, whereas your aforementioned "simply to learn how to play" remains bereft of content and thus not an example of "clarity."

Sadly, your own verbal Clumsiness, coupled with your obvious Crippling Anguish at my rhetorical Domination, serves only to expose the Illusion you have of your relevance. Hopefully, this will serve as the final Inspiration for you to cease posting off-topic flames in this thread, as the response of the general readership will be Fast, Casting you by the wayside.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jun 30, 2006, 10:10 PM // 22:10

Can't we give the flames a rest?
/emote I'm using mantra of flames!

makosi · Jun 30, 2006, 10:57 PM // 22:57

This is turning in to an "I-can-type-bigger-words-than-you-so-I-must-be-right" thread.

Just a thought: Does this thread imply that only mesmers can take on touchers? If so, then I'd say that they are in fact overpowered contrary to how I felt previously.

Dragannia · Jun 30, 2006, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robin_Anadri

I'm pleased that you're such an avid reader of my posts. This exchange, however, grows tiresome. Suffice it to say, despite your attempt to equivocate them, the excerpt from my post *is* an example of a clear statement, containing a completely developed thought with explanation, whereas your aforementioned "simply to learn how to play" remains bereft of content and thus not an example of "clarity."

Sadly, your own verbal Clumsiness, coupled with your obvious Crippling Anguish at my rhetorical Domination, serves only to expose the Illusion you have of your relevance. Hopefully, this will serve as the final Inspiration for you to cease posting off-topic flames in this thread, as the response of the general readership will be Fast, Casting you by the wayside.

LOL

He's won, Themis. Just give up

Robin_Anadri · Jul 01, 2006, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

Just a thought: Does this thread imply that only mesmers can take on touchers? If so, then I'd say that they are in fact overpowered contrary to how I felt previously.

Oh, no, no, no. Not the implication of this thread at all. This is just a "how-to" tactics & build thread for Mesmers that want to go vampire hunting. I think what we've established is that that for owning touchers, Mesmers shouldn't look beyond their primary class. I had a fleeting hope that my other favorite touch-hunting class, Ranger, might enable me to build The Ultimate Vampire Staking Build, but the reality is that Me/R doesn't work very well using a bow.

Briefly speaking, other classes can take on touchers by playing on the weaknesses of that build, ie., no hex removal, extremely limited condition removal, weak energy management, and extremely limited (if powerful) self-healing. Snare, degen, edenial & kiting FTW. Some classes are less capable of these activities than others and may need to lean on subclassing, but Mesmers are by no means the only counter to touchers.

But then again... a well-played Mesmer is a powerful counter to any build. Countering is what we do.

Themis · Jul 01, 2006, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dragannia

LOL

He's won, Themis. Just give up

Ok, Dragannia, i'll follow your advice and give her a break. She always gets flamed on her posts, anyway... Who cares ? i don't.

Back to the subject, i think a sample build to take down TR (but not just TR, 'cause they're getting more&more rare as time passes) is :
Ineptitude
ConjureP
IoR
Accumulated Pain
Imagined Burden
Ether Feast
Drain Enchantment
Epidemic

14 Illusion, 10 Inspi, 10 FC work fine. Very close to initial Robin's build, as you can see.

If you need rez (on RA, for instance) you can drop Epidemic.

Personally, i've never got pwnd by TR while being equipped with an Illusion build, even without a snare. So, in my case i don't take IBurden, i prefer an interrupt : Complicate. But, for those who need a "anti-TR insurance", well, Imagined Burden makes them feel safer.

BTW, no need for the persistence Mantra, or you'll face energy problems.

As i stated earlier, it's fairly unproductive to equip a build simply to face TRs. I mean, they're just a bit irritating, no more ! Better be efficient againt the other... 95% of builds around. That's my theory : heavy degen + snares and they'll be so disgusted dying so quickly that they will equip a better build themselves

What can it be ?

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jul 01, 2006, 02:45 AM // 02:45

What I'm saying: well I guess you could use psychic distraction here to disrupt some of the touches that hit you; although the recharge would let another one through a couple of times...also it is difficult to interrupt for alot of people, including myself if I am greatly pressured. Basically you would need blackout or diversion as additional support, but BO+diversion could lock down the build in the first place...

What I'm thinking: if only I could find a way to use powerblock here for a surefire way to victory...

Evilsod · Jul 01, 2006, 02:57 AM // 02:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

Just a thought: Does this thread imply that only mesmers can take on touchers? If so, then I'd say that they are in fact overpowered contrary to how I felt previously.

Of course not, its just that every profession seems to think it can counter them. Mesmer been the counter class obviously can. Its just now we have Assassins and Warriors thinking they can too, when what they're actually done is find a way to make themselves harmless to everything else.

If people are gonna stand next to them after you've slowed them. They deserve to win, i'm gonna stand by that statement. If all you can do to them is slow them down and wear them down then so be it.

Phenixfire · Jul 01, 2006, 10:57 PM // 22:57

well, i've got myself around to beat me through mineral springs to get inepitude ... and to test your build...

eh, first of all, it may be a buffy ( buffy the vampire hunter, eh, the tv series :P ) build that works great in theory...

BUT
( all my experiences based on RA )

1. the build runs into great energy problems ..ethereal burden can hardly make up for it, nor can the power drain ( 1. sometimes you're too slow to interrupt, means wasted, 2. sometimes no casters around ( no idea how often i ran into melee only teams ^^ )
the spells are simply too costly

3. ethereal burden slows for 10secs ... no way you degen the Vamp fast enough to kill him -> you need another slow skill, i went with crippling anguish in, too

4. in theory, a vamp dies due to constant degen and no life gain ...
well, in action, forget it ..

first in RA: no matter how often you tell people not to get near touchers, you kill em, they do, and then vamps will be able to leech again.. there goes you kill ^^
in TA: dont play there much, but i guess most there work in a team, so you wont be able to kill the toucher without attacking yourself .. forming a fighting mob around the toucher ( if it is only 1, not to mention if it is more ^^ ) and he'll be, despite the slow, soon be able to 'bite' again ..

5. by using crippling ang., i wasnt able to take another elite ( surprise surprise

)..

why do you use ineptitude to finish him off ? even if you are taking it instead of CA, its a almost wasted skill to finish a vamp off, 20secs recharge for killing some life ... not to mention the 10ene, which are precious since you always seem to run into ene-probs.
i used Shattered delusions, just finish the vamp off with that, low recharge, low costs...

6. there isnt always only 1 toucher in the enemy team. there are mesmers, eles, monks, and warrs too ( okok, rits and assas too ^^ ).
focusing on a single target all the time ( who wont die most possibly cause off the stupidity of your team ) wont work .. there are warrs chasing your monk ( if you are lucky enough to get one ^^ ), those could need a slow too
all that will only worsen your ene-probs

7. some touchers also use life siphon .. not that grave, but it will slow the degen by three, just wanted to have it mentioned

well, as i said, nice build, but i think in practice it doesnt stand to much chances ... i'd still prefer good old knockdown-> blackout-> 9 secs should be enoughto kill a toucher without a monk supporting him ( if you gang up on him first ) .. if there is a monk, well, dont think degen build would be much better then ...

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jul 01, 2006, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phenixfire

first in RA: no matter how often you tell people not to get near touchers, you kill em, they do, and then vamps will be able to leech again..

To all those who argued against me...I told ya so.

Sure they "deserve to win" but that doesn't change the fact that your team lost...which in the end is all that matters.

Phenixfire · Jul 01, 2006, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eaimirth Etaivella

To all those who argued against me...I told ya so.

Sure they "deserve to win" but that doesn't change the fact that your team lost...which in the end is all that matters.

tbh, iff i think about it, there is no way to degen a toucher dead ...
assuming the situation in ra/ta that is present in 9,99 cases out of 10 ^^

two teams, each of its members standing besides each other ( not more than 0,5 secs normal movement speed between them ).
the team without a monk will most possibly attack first, or the team without casters ...

ok, one team charges, you slow and degen the toucher .. even slowed, he will be close enough to his team mates to reach one of their attackers in about 2 secs ... then he can touch and leech again, outleeching your dmg per sec by far ^^

and even if one team doesnt charge in, it is not like all other opponents freeze only cause you buffy the toucher ... they will deal dmg too, be it through warrs or through casters.. that will often cause some running, trying to get rid off the attacker ... shortens the distance between the toucher and a victim ... he will be able to touch soon enough again, not to mention your energy problems that will occur then, limiting your ability to keep up the degen and slow
and if there is no running cause of no melees attacking your party .. mesmers will degen you and your team, eles will spike.. constant pressure .. no way to wait until a vamp is degend and stand still until then
retreating as an alternative to attacking ( which implys going near enemy -> toucher range ), they'll of course chase you, draining your monks energy by constant dmg dealing, and letting the enemy gain ground is imho never good
( all that assuming you have a highly disciplined team, which is very hard in ra ( some dont even speak english there ^^ ))

imho, best way to kill em, is,as i said, skill denial.

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jul 02, 2006, 02:08 AM // 02:08

I would suggest wither but I won't...so I will suggest panic instead. Panic him, energy burn, energy tap, signet of w., energy denial of your choice and bam gg. If he opts to cast life siphon power leak that into the dirt as well; will only make things tons easier.

Themis · Jul 02, 2006, 07:51 AM // 07:51

@Phenixfire :

I don't think Robin's build can get into energy problems if you cast properly. Probably you cast Conjure and IoR too often, causing an energy shortdown, no ? If you really plan to spam CP and IoR, then you should consider using Imagined Burden with Auspicious Incantation or an Elite energy management (Energy Drain for instance). This is not just theory. I've been using this kind of build for over a month, and i only have energy problems in the above cases, although i'm equipped with a 20%+20% illusion+all skills recharge.

imo, Ineptitude is not meant to finish off. It's meant to make the build more general, being able to be used towards other W/Asn/R, not just TouchRangers.
I agree with your vision about RA. Even with a specialized build, there's no sure way to victory without experienced teammates. So, if you slow down the TR, but meanwhile your team can't or won't deal with the others, or won't kite while being close to a TR, well... forget it.

@Eaimirth :

Panic... i tried it also. It's quite fun, but i ended up getting Auspicious incantation as well. I've found no other way of getting enough energy to keep Panic up every 25-30 seconds

Eaimirth Etaivella · Jul 02, 2006, 01:34 PM // 13:34

True ^_~; panic is energy demanding. Like I said I would suggest wither...but I won't.

Avarre · Jul 02, 2006, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Wither would work with other degen well but it's way to simple for a toucher to remove his staff, wield it again, use OoB or whatever, and carry on normally.

So I too could suggest wither... but I won't

Terra Xin · Jul 04, 2006, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Looks like sig of Disenchant has yet another use^^.

Aside. I had to laugh when I brought a degen mesmer with iron Mist... very good fun toying with dirty little hands this way.

Bloodied Blade · Jul 05, 2006, 05:17 AM // 05:17

If you're trying to take out a touch ranger, I've found that it's nearly impossible in RA to do it with a Degen/Slow build *alone*. I was playing around in RA with apparently the same idea that the op had (slow + degen + shutdown = dead irritant). I ran a multi-purpose slow/degen shutdown something like:

(Don't remember attributes)

Crippling Anguish
Imagined Burden
Conjure Phantasm
Phantom Pain
Energy Tap
Ether Feast
Distortion / Utility
Res Signet (I usually use the build in RA)

The major downside that I always find is having to get teammates who understand that you can run from the foe with degen on him.

I have found the build very effective against a variety of gimmick builds that are so common in RA and TA right now... The AoD assassin, the IW mesmer, the *touch ranger*, but I digress somewhat.

I'll...how shall I say this... cut the crap and get to the point. Concentrate your hexes on the Touch Ranger and it becomes substantially easier to kill. With any luck you will have an elementalist or blood necromancer on your team capable of dealing large amounts of damage to the touch ranger who can help.
Ether Feast and Energy Tap are just a little bit of E-Denial + utility thrown into the mix that lower the effectiveness of the TR a little.
Distortion is there to neutralize Assassins, Warriors, and various non-TR ranger builds.

I wish the rest of you luck in your ventures.

Avarre · Jul 05, 2006, 07:39 AM // 07:39

At above:

For one, AoD assassin is hardly a gimmick anymore. You might as well call shock axe a gimmick

Snaring a toucher and then all focusing fire on him generally kills him quick. The OP recommended degen because that is the most sustainable conditionless damage a mesmer has.

Terra Xin · Jul 05, 2006, 12:34 PM // 12:34

yeah I got really irritated when in one battle I used iron mist on the vampire, and guess who wouldnt kite and decided to take him on?? THE FRLIPPIN WAMMO!!!

*storms off to read more heal-bot comics...*

I also used a hardy popular full inspiration build. Of course it did no damage, and i couldnt die, but the TR was rendered useless with no energy. I used a build similar to this one:

Mantra of Recovery
Energy Tap
Ether Feast
Ether Lord
Spirit Shackles
Spirit of Failure
Optional (physical mantra preferred)
Res sig

The only problem was... of course, I could do no damage, and if the target had no energy, i couldnt heal. It was good however for multiple target casting. I can easily have one or two people rendered useless with this build. Back to the touch ranger, next time ill bring a higher dom rating and take empathy or something...