Curse

ChaoticCoyote · Jul 24, 2006, 05:00 PM // 17:00

I always take my pet, and have always operated under the assumption that they had DP like any other character. My habits and builds were formed under the assumption that pets had DP.

My ranger has 1.5 million experience from actual gameplay; I do not farm as a general rule. Most of my in-game time is spent exploring, helping people with missions, and replaying enjoyable parts fo the game.

Fluffy the Dune Lizard has been with me since my first visit to the Crystal Desert at level 17. My goal in having a pet was both role-playing and functional -- essentially, I wanted a blocker and extra damage, but still intend to use my bow as primary attack. When I charmed Fluffy, I took him to Gates of Kryta and other locations and "evolved" him into a Hearty (+60HP, -15% damage).

I always run with at least 3 pet skills, and at least 3 marksmanship/expertise skills. The actual build depends on circumstances; for example, when soloing, I don't take a res.

These builds work for me; I've got several titles and lots of enjoyable game hours where these skills sets are fun and successful.

My attributes are set to:

Beastmastery: 11 (10 + 1)
Marksmanship: 14 (10 + 1 + 3)
Expertise: 13 (11 + 2)

I don't have any energy issues due to the high expertise, which allows me to use my skills constantly. I have other amors and settings for special situations (trapping, for example), but the above is how I've spent 80% of my time in GW as a ranger.

For skills, my standard "exploration with henchies" set is:

Marauder's Shot / Hunter's Shot
Precision Shot
Distracting Shot
Read the Wind
Heal as One
Comfort Animal
Charm Animal
Flesh of My Flesh

If I'm doing solo (as in, just me and Fluffy):

Marauder's Shot
Precision Shot
Distracting Shot
Read the Wind
Edge of Extinction / Run as One / Poisonous Bite (or another pet attack or Viper's Nest)
Heal as One
Comfort Animal
Charm Animal

For PuG missions where I run as an interrupter, I use:

Punishing Shot
Savage Shot
Distracting Shot
Read the Wind
Troll Unguent
Comfort Animal
Charm Animal
Flesh of My Flesh

I sometimes use Melandru's Shot or Poison Arrow or Barrage when I'm in a place (e.g., Old Ascalon) where healing isn't a big issue, replacing Heal As One with Troll Unguent or a pet attack.

I don't usually put points in Wilderness Survival (unless I'm trapping), and find Troll Unguent too slow for use in stressful situations. Heal as One is a good spike self-heal.

Usually, if Fluffy goes down, I either kite and res him, or I'm already going to die.

The only time I *don't* take Fluffy is when trapping; he simply isn't suitable for that role, so I leave him with friends while I go off to UW or Urgoz's.

Will pet DP change the way I play? No.

That said, I think pet controls *and* morale boosts are only fair and balanced. Change Charm Animal to invoke a pet to "heel" is another good idea I've seen.

I'm interested in considered and polite opinions.

MrSlayer · Jul 24, 2006, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Hurray another Ranger using a pet. My first character to hit level 20 was a ranger, and I swapped my level 19 stalker for a dune lizard, which I have since traded for a tiger.

I think that a pet is an invaluable addon for a ranger; you have a high damage bow (second only to the hammer in average damage over time [an axe has too much of a damage range]) and you have the ability to remain out of spell casting range. With a Dire pet, you also have your own tank; even with 15% less damage, you are dealing out alot more than others.

However, if you have a pet, you need to keep it alive for you to not have wasted beast mastery points and 1 or 2 skill slots. Also, a huge disadvantage is the skill recharge if your beloved companion dies.

My overall opinion is pets are useful, although many common ranger builds (such as a barrager or as you stated, a trapper) are better off without. Its still nice to see someone using a pet

.

Overall those builds look pretty good. However, you have a lack of wilderness survival which means you can't make use of damage-boosting preperations OR use the un-strippable Troll Unguent. Overall though, you could argue that the pet would take the damage away from you, meaning these skills aren't needed,

felinette · Jul 24, 2006, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote

Will pet DP change the way I play? No.

It probably won't change the way you play because you aren't playing a beastmaster. To play a beastmaster, you would carry at least 5-6 pet skills on your bar, with your pet being your main weapon. As it is now, if your pet dies, you've got enough bow attacks to remain useful. If a beastmaster's pet dies, they're useless until they can get their pet up again. Kiting and rezzing isn't possible when the pet dies in the middle of a mob.

I don't view your builds as much different than a */R who just wants to bring a pet along, except that your pet's attacks will deal more damage and, in one of your builds, you have poisonous bite. I have an Me/R who has a pet, and even she always has 3 pet skills. She's low level, so at the moment those are charm animal, comfort animal, and feral lunge. Later, she may forgo the pet entirely for stances. If a R/* isn't going to be a full beastmaster, I think points invested in BM are a waste--you'd be better off putting those points into wilderness. Having said that, the point of the game is to have fun. If a build is working for you, and you enjoy having a pet along, then that's all that matters. However, you have to realize that the reason people like me are screaming about the DP change is because we play beastmasters, so the change will have a great impact on us.

Quote:

Marauder's Shot
Precision Shot
Distracting Shot
Read the Wind
Edge of Extinction / Run as One
Poisonous Bite (or another pet attack or Viper's Nest)
Heal as One
Comfort Animal
Charm Animal

That's nine skills.

ChaoticCoyote · Jul 24, 2006, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by felinette

It probably won't change the way you play because you aren't playing a beastmaster. To play a beastmaster, you would carry at least 5-6 pet skills on your bar, with your pet being your main weapon. As it is now, if your pet dies, you've got enough bow attacks to remain useful. If a beastmaster's pet dies, they're useless until they can get their pet up again. Kiting and rezzing isn't possible when the pet dies in the middle of a mob.

I've played as a tankmaster; frankly, the lack of pet control is more of a problem than skill selection or DP. Using a pet as a primry weapon is like a warriors axe chosing its own targets and refusing to let him break aggro. Unworkable, period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by felinette

I don't view your builds as much different than a */R who just wants to bring a pet along, except that your pet's attacks will deal more damage and, in one of your builds, you have poisonous bite. I have an Me/R who has a pet, and even she always has 3 pet skills. She's low level, so at the moment those are charm animal, comfort animal, and feral lunge. Later, she may forgo the pet entirely for stances. If a R/* isn't going to be a full beastmaster, I think points invested in BM are a waste--you'd be better off putting those points into wilderness.

I completely disagree. The points in BM lower blackout, raise Fluffy's damage (yes, he even hurts level 24s a bit), and give me an excellent self-heal in Heal as One.

The Wilderness survival preps are nice, but specialized. Kindle arrows can be effective, but I'd rather use Read the Wind and a selection of elemental bows (I carry eight bows). If I'm trapping, I leave the pet behind and pump WS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by felinette

That's nine skills.

I fixed an unintentional line-break.

felinette · Jul 24, 2006, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote

I've played as a tankmaster; frankly, the lack of pet control is more of a problem than skill selection or DP. Using a pet as a primry weapon is like a warriors axe chosing its own targets and refusing to let him break aggro. Unworkable, period.

Well, lack of pet control is a problem right now without DP. And because we have a lack of pet control, giving pets DP is a whacky idea. If you've read the recent threads about this, you'll see that most of us would be more accepting of the proposed DP change if it came along with pet commands.

Quote:

I completely disagree. The points in BM lower blackout, raise Fluffy's damage (yes, he even hurts level 24s a bit), and give me an excellent self-heal in Heal as One.

But with no or only one pet attack skill, it's not worth it. Why risk blackout at all? As for self-heal, I can see it if your secondary class doesn't have a good self-heal. Depending on the secondary, there could be better ones. Anyway, as I said, if the build is working for you and you like your pet, that's all that matters. I have two rangers--one a beastmaster, and one not. Both have pets, but the non-BM invests very little into the BM line. The skills she takes are similar to your builds, in that she only takes Charm/Comfort animal. The majority of her points are dumped into exp/mark/wilderness. So her pet is basically a meat shield and something to distract the baddies. There's a *huge* difference between how she plays and how my BM plays. If her pet dies, it's no big deal. She rezzes it after battle, or even sometimes during battle if she needs to take the heat off, even though she knows it'll probably drop dead again. On the other hand, my BM works *hard* to keep her pet alive. Her pet doesn't die too often, and when it does, she feels lost. She has no useful skills at all, except barrage, which she usually carries. So for the BM, giving her pet DP will have a huge impact in that *her* effectiveness in battle will decrease every time the pet dies. For my other ranger, not much impact at all.

ChaoticCoyote · Jul 24, 2006, 07:08 PM // 19:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by felinette

Well, lack of pet control is a problem right now without DP. And because we have a lack of pet control, giving pets DP is a whacky idea. If you've read the recent threads about this, you'll see that most of us would be more accepting of the proposed DP change if it came along with pet commands.

I think it is very clear from Gaile's posts that pet controls are not a priority and that the "designers" of Guild Wars consider pets to be "working according to design." She said not to expect pet controls any time soon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by felinette

But with no or only one pet attack skill, it's not worth it. Why risk blackout at all? As for self-heal, I can see it if your secondary class doesn't have a good self-heal. Depending on the secondary, there could be better ones.

Again, I've never felt Blackout was a major problem. Were I a ranger secondary, it would be an entirely different story, but as a Ranger rpimary, I don't find Blackout all that annoying.

As for another class, I'd just have to spend my points even more broadly. Either Fluffy would become a pure meatshield, or my Expertise would rop, or I'd be no good at the secondary class. None of my characters put many points into their secondaries. Just a play preference, I guess.

With the points I have in BM, I've watched Fluffy does 5-8 points of damage to a level 24 monster -- and he does much more if I swap in even one pet attack. Plus, having BM at a high level allows me to self-heal quickly, thus getting double value from the points in that attribute.

No matter how many points I put in WS, Troll Unguent is still too damned slow to cast.

Quote:

Originally Posted by felinette

Anyway, as I said, if the build is working for you and you like your pet, that's all that matters. I have two rangers--one a beastmaster, and one not. Both have pets, but the non-BM invests very little into the BM line. The skills she takes are similar to your builds, in that she only takes Charm/Comfort animal. The majority of her points are dumped into exp/mark/wilderness. So her pet is basically a meat shield and something to distract the baddies. There's a *huge* difference between how she plays and how my BM plays. If her pet dies, it's no big deal. She rezzes it after battle, or even sometimes during battle if she needs to take the heat off, even though she knows it'll probably drop dead again. On the other hand, my BM works *hard* to keep her pet alive. Her pet doesn't die too often, and when it does, she feels lost. She has no useful skills at all, except barrage, which she usually carries. So for the BM, giving her pet DP will have a huge impact in that *her* effectiveness in battle will decrease every time the pet dies. For my other ranger, not much impact at all.

I don't understand why you think I don't work hard to keep my pet alive. I rely on Fluffy for more than just being a meat shield; he provides useful extra damage and a good, fast self-heal. If he dies, I'm probably going down soon thereafter.

No, I am not a beast master. I consider my pet and ranger to be a symbiotic unit where both contribute to success. That's quite a bit different from treating the animal as "just a meatshield."

felinette · Jul 24, 2006, 07:57 PM // 19:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote

I think it is very clear from Gaile's posts that pet controls are not a priority and that the "designers" of Guild Wars consider pets to be "working according to design." She said not to expect pet controls any time soon.

Which sucks.

Quote:

Again, I've never felt Blackout was a major problem. Were I a ranger secondary, it would be an entirely different story, but as a Ranger rpimary, I don't find Blackout all that annoying.

I find blackout annoying when I have bow attack skills on my bar. My beastmaster doesn't because just about all her skills are related to her pet.

Quote:

No matter how many points I put in WS, Troll Unguent is still too damned slow to cast.

Agreed.

Quote:

I don't understand why you think I don't work hard to keep my pet alive. I rely on Fluffy for more than just being a meat shield; he provides useful extra damage and a good, fast self-heal. If he dies, I'm probably going down soon thereafter.

No, I am not a beast master. I consider my pet and ranger to be a symbiotic unit where both contribute to success. That's quite a bit different from treating the animal as "just a meatshield."

If you read that part of my post, you'll see that I'm talking about my characters, not yours. I was trying to point out that how you use your pet, and especially how many skills you dedicate to your pet, will determine how the DP change impacts you. As in, I have two rangers with pets. One will be severely impacted by the change. The other won't. The change pretty much rules out the viability of beastmasters in PvE, "beastmaster" meaning lots of points in BM *AND* majority of skills are pet skills, with no or perhaps only one bow skill.

ETA: Though if the DP change goes through, my non-BM ranger may stop taking her pet because she won't want repeated blackouts.

ChaoticCoyote · Jul 25, 2006, 01:11 AM // 01:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by felinette

If you read that part of my post, you'll see that I'm talking about my characters, not yours. I was trying to point out that how you use your pet, and especially how many skills you dedicate to your pet, will determine how the DP change impacts you. As in, I have two rangers with pets. One will be severely impacted by the change. The other won't. The change pretty much rules out the viability of beastmasters in PvE, "beastmaster" meaning lots of points in BM *AND* majority of skills are pet skills, with no or perhaps only one bow skill.

ETA: Though if the DP change goes through, my non-BM ranger may stop taking her pet because she won't want repeated blackouts.

I never thought being a full beastmaster was really viable anyway, given the poor pet AI. I just found it too frustrating, even if I could make it work.

Earlier this evening, I went through Mineral Springs to get a new mask infused. Took Fluffy and seven henches. Had my usual build for exploring.

I died twice. One bad agro, and another case of getting stuck on the map.

Those Avicara make sushi out of henchies.

Fluffy died twice -- and was never the first to go down. He broke aggro properly a couple of times, then got stuck in the mess of trolls and imps in the big cave. Ugh.

Orion died and died and died... that poor boy was vying with Claude to see who could croak fastest.

So I'm happy, I guess. Fluffy was doing about 6-8 points of damage to most Avicara, and quite a bit more when I used his attack. Certainly more useful than a couple of caster corpses...

Amy Awien · Jul 25, 2006, 10:13 AM // 10:13

Mhh, well, seeing Huan doing 90 damage (against Avicare warriors) every 5~6 seconds, and 40 on his other attacks, makes me happier. Together the two of us can eat away 50 HP/sec from a 60AL target, or 36 HP/sec from a 100AL target.

Does that sound so bad?

Edit: Btw, I found the mission at Iron Mines a tad easier to do then visiting the seer through Mineral Springs. The avicare are not so bad, but the imps and whatnot in that cave, pffff.

felinette · Jul 25, 2006, 04:43 PM // 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote

I never thought being a full beastmaster was really viable anyway, given the poor pet AI. I just found it too frustrating, even if I could make it work.

I agree with you there. I made a beastmaster because I think the idea is really cool, but the execution of that idea leaves something to be desired. There should have been pet commands from day one, and I hope they add them. What I've learned from playing my two rangers with different builds is that the non-BM seems more effective in battle. With all sorts of preparations, spirits, and bow attacks, she rocks. My BM only has barrage, but her pet helps a lot, and because she has a high BM value and constantly has Call of Protection active, her pet rarely dies. But I'd say she's the weaker ranger of the two. I stubbornly stick with a pet though, and continue to charm pets for some of my secondary rangers, because I think adventuring with a pet is fun.

But I do worry that the DP change will make it more annoying to take a pet than not, which would be unfortunate.

Quote:

Orion died and died and died... that poor boy was vying with Claude to see who could croak fastest.

LOL. Those two boys love hitting the dirt. I only ever take Orion if I think I need AoE damage and don't care if the enemies scatter. I usually take Claude because of how he helps on the energy side, but he's usually the first henchie to go down. I don't know why he thinks he has to be standing right in the thick of things to cast Deadly Swarm, but then Alesia thinks she needs to be in the middle of it to heal. It's not just the pets that need commands.

Quote:

Btw, I found the mission at Iron Mines a tad easier to do then visiting the seer through Mineral Springs.

I wasn't aware that there was a seer in Mineral Springs. I always go to Iron Mines when I need infusion--it's fairly easy and quick to get to the seer.

Azmodan · Jul 25, 2006, 05:45 PM // 17:45

There are a couple of problems with Heal as One. First, it's an elite. I would rather bring Poison Arrow. Second, if your pet is dead the skill is useless. So in the middle of battle, your pet dies, you are still attacking and need to heal yourself. Sorry, no healing for you.

Heal as One is basically a self heal here. You already have Comfort Animal for your pet.

ChaoticCoyote · Jul 25, 2006, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azmodan

There are a couple of problems with Heal as One. First, it's an elite. I would rather bring Poison Arrow. Second, if your pet is dead the skill is useless. So in the middle of battle, your pet dies, you are still attacking and need to heal yourself. Sorry, no healing for you.

Heal as One is basically a self heal here. You already have Comfort Animal for your pet.

In my experience, if Fluffy dies, I die. More often than not, I'm the one taking a dirt nap while he "guards" my body.

Heal as One heals more damage than Comfort Animal. In general, I use it during battle to heal either Fluffy or myself, and only use Comfort as a pet-res.

My experiment with Marauder's Shot and Enraged Lunge is working well, so I may rethink how to best heal myself in battle. I may just change my secondary to Monk and be done with it.

Amy Awien · Jul 25, 2006, 08:14 PM // 20:14

When out as a Bow & Beastmaster I just satisfy myself with Predatory Bond, or nothing. It heals me, although only moderately and unreliable, and fuels Enraged Lunge.

Marauders is neat, it enables you to use Charm and Comfort as fuel for Enraged Lunge, so you could get away with just 4 BM skills total. Timing is a bit more of a problem, Marauders has a 6 second recharge, and approx a 1 sec attack lead-in, so you wouldn't be using EL as frequently as you could in a regular BM build.

Ah, well, can just as well give my build(s)

BM: 10 +1+2
EX: 11 +2
MM: 10 +2

No WS, since I don't take anything from that line. Trolls is not enough reason, so if the healers fail, we die.

Charm Animal, Comfort Animal, Call of Protection
Call of Haste or Predatory Bond
Enraged Lunge, Predators Pounce
Read the Wind (usually) or Favorable Winds (if I take archer henchies)
Flesh of My Flesh or Marauder's Shot or Distracting Shot or CapSig or something else or even Otyugh's Cry.

Vampiric Ascalon Flatbow of Defense only while in combat.

Pet AI may be flawed, but I believe some effects, like not following in a retreat, might be due more to the pet defending itself against attackers while it attempts to follow then it's unwillingnes to retreat. Something similar might cause it's 'refusal' to switch targets, maybe. We'll have to work with what's there, not with what we would like.

Aisius · Jul 26, 2006, 07:57 AM // 07:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChaoticCoyote

These builds work for me; I've got several titles and lots of enjoyable game hours where these skills sets are fun and successful.

My attributes are set to:

Beastmastery: 11 (10 + 1)
Marksmanship: 14 (10 + 1 + 3)
Expertise: 13 (11 + 2)

I don't have any energy issues due to the high expertise, which allows me to use my skills constantly. I have other amors and settings for special situations (trapping, for example), but the above is how I've spent 80% of my time in GW as a ranger.

For skills, my standard "exploration with henchies" set is:

Marauder's Shot / Hunter's Shot
Precision Shot
Distracting Shot
Read the Wind
Heal as One
Comfort Animal
Charm Animal
Flesh of My Flesh

If I'm doing solo (as in, just me and Fluffy):

Marauder's Shot
Precision Shot
Distracting Shot
Read the Wind
Edge of Extinction / Run as One / Poisonous Bite (or another pet attack or Viper's Nest)
Heal as One
Comfort Animal
Charm Animal

For PuG missions where I run as an interrupter, I use:

Punishing Shot
Savage Shot
Distracting Shot
Read the Wind
Troll Unguent
Comfort Animal
Charm Animal
Flesh of My Flesh

I sometimes use Melandru's Shot or Poison Arrow or Barrage when I'm in a place (e.g., Old Ascalon) where healing isn't a big issue, replacing Heal As One with Troll Unguent or a pet attack.

I don't usually put points in Wilderness Survival (unless I'm trapping), and find Troll Unguent too slow for use in stressful situations. Heal as One is a good spike self-heal.

Usually, if Fluffy goes down, I either kite and res him, or I'm already going to die.

The only time I *don't* take Fluffy is when trapping; he simply isn't suitable for that role, so I leave him with friends while I go off to UW or Urgoz's.

Awesome. I really like your builds you've used. Would you mind that I adopt them ?

I recently got my ranger to Witmans Folly and tamed a lvl 5 black bear with the intention to play as ranger with pet.

I haven't alot of experience with my ranger and apart from capping the pet attack that gives an energy return(sorry forget spell name) only have the elite dodge and barrage.

Thanks for posting this , saved me posting asking about a good ranger with pet skill set.

Amy Awien · Jul 26, 2006, 08:45 AM // 08:45

Ferocious Strike is the only Pet elite available in Prophecies, Enrage Lunge and Heal As One are Factions only. If you have both - which I suspect - there should be no problem.

Though bears are cute, they have a slower attack rate then other animals. I think you should know this before you continue training him. There is a pet guide on this site.

Rhedd · Jul 26, 2006, 01:28 PM // 13:28

I'd happily write pages and pages explaining how pure beastmasters (at least 6 beastmastery skills on your bar) are VERY viable, both in PvE and PvP.

I won't, though, because then more people might play beastmasters, and then more people would become familiar with counters to them, and then poor Redfeather would get his brains beaten out more often, and then I'd cry.

So, in summary, beastmasters suck. Never ever play one for any reason.
Ever. ^_^

SparhawkJC · Jul 26, 2006, 01:37 PM // 13:37

Some notes, where the hell are you guys getting the idea that more beastmastery lowers the time of blackout after pet death? The time for blackout is the same regardless of the amount of points you have invested into beastmastery.

Primary beastmaster is very formidable. The Tank Master build works very well, here is the link for it:

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/R/any_Tank_Master

I myself run more offense than defense because, hey tanking is what warriors are for.

King's Spectre · Jul 26, 2006, 02:32 PM // 14:32

I've seen a couple posts with timed results. 8ish at BM=0 and 4ish with BM=16 IIRC.

With henchies I can *almost* drop comfort animal. I do drop it for shorter projects like the Jade Arena. I love seeing those -100's pop up every third attack or so and getting a -186 on a heavily armored fighter using frenzy is glorious.

Even will minimal investment, I've found that a pet will do a passible job filling a warrior henchie spot. I would often wander SF with 5 henchies, bringing a pet let me drop that to 5 - more XP and loot for me!

SparhawkJC · Jul 26, 2006, 10:57 PM // 22:57

I stand corrected. Tested this myself and higher Beastmastery does indeed shorten the skill disable time upon pet death. Surprised that there's no mention on this in Guildwiki or Jenosavel's pet guide.

Rikimaru · Jul 26, 2006, 11:15 PM // 23:15

I Think a good idea would be to make Charm Animal have 3 different functions, depending on if you have no pet, have a living pet, or have a dead pet.
When you don't have one, it charms one just like it does now.
When you have one, using it will have your pet attack your selected target, or return to you if you either have no enemy selected or if it's already attacking your selected target.
And if your pet is dead, it works as a 10 second cast pet rez.

The new pet DP makes this change pretty much necessary.

And this has been said before, but if they want to give pets Death Penalty like a party member, they need to allow them to be effected by team heals and enchants like a party member.