Curse

Rent · Jul 30, 2006, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

Yes, I read the argument. It's still idiotic. Just because you can't attain a perfect balance doesn't mean you shouldn't continously try to get closer.

"Bad skills will always exist because it is literally impossible to achieve perfect balance and not be boring as hell"
"lol that argument is idiotic"
"Is it? Could you read it again and maybe expand on your thoughts a bit?"
"nope still idiotic"

basically WHY

Yanman.be · Jul 30, 2006, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Bad skills exsist so the good ones shine out.

Mysterial · Jul 30, 2006, 10:11 PM // 22:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rent

"Bad skills will always exist because it is literally impossible to achieve perfect balance and not be boring as hell"
"lol that argument is idiotic"
"Is it? Could you read it again and maybe expand on your thoughts a bit?"
"nope still idiotic"

basically WHY

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

Does that mean we shouldn't continue to strive for the ideal anyway? Does that mean Arenanet should just ignore all the bad skills and not buff them because "there will always be bad skills"? That's ridiculous.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

Just because you can't attain a perfect balance doesn't mean you shouldn't continously try to get closer.

Read. Note that I'm not arguing the inevitability of bad skills existing. I'm arguing against the idea that because it's inevitable, we shouldn't try to get rid of it. Specifically:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rent

So why not buff the rest to be equal? Why not just make them all good skills, make them all equal power level? Because you can't.

Just because some buffs will fail or just flip it to a different skill being bad doesn't mean Arenanet shouldn't bother buffing skills. Some will succeed and increase the number of good skills and the game will be better for it. Every time getting closer to the goal of all skills being good, even if we can't ever reach it.

Did it get through your thick skull this time?

Rent · Jul 30, 2006, 10:36 PM // 22:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

Just because some buffs will fail or just flip it to a different skill being bad doesn't mean Arenanet shouldn't bother buffing skills. Some will succeed and increase the number of good skills and the game will be better for it. Every time getting closer to the goal of all skills being good, even if we can't ever reach it.

Did it get through your thick skull this time?

Insults are the KEY to victory. Your credibility shines forth good sir.

I never said that they shouldn't bother to buff skills, or even to nerf good ones. Balance is always something to strive for. Considering I never advocated abandoning all hopes of a perfect balance, I don't understand your point.

Skyy High · Jul 31, 2006, 01:37 AM // 01:37

I'm fairly certain I can't link to an outside source, so I'm going to just repost an article I wrote for guildwars.ogaming.com a while ago (we're talking early April). It's amazing how similar my conclusions were to yours; and yes, that MtG article was my inspiration as well.

_____________
Bad Skills: Why They Exist

Guild Wars has often been compared to the trading card game Magic: The Gathering, mainly with regards to how players in both games must carefully construct a cohesive “deck” to play with – in Guild Wars, this deck is your skillbar. There is one other trait the two games share: both have bad skills.

Before I go any further, a disclaimer is in order. I am well aware that all skills can be useful in the right situation. Everyone reading this has seen or been a part of this discussion before. Thus, in this article the term “bad skill” will refer to those skills that are seldom used unless you’re specifically trying to build around them, the ones you frequently just gloss over as you scroll down the list as you’re setting your bar.

Now that I am free to label skills “bad” without being condemned as a Guild Wars heretic, it is time to return the discussion at hand. The developers of Magic have discussed at length why there must exist bad cards (and even bad rare cards) and in this article I plan to do the same for Guild Wars. Why are some skills labeled as “bad”? What makes a bad skill? And most vexing, why are some bad skills elites?

The easiest answer to why there are bad skills is that there has to be. As anyone familiar to Hero’s Ascent is aware, there will always be flavour of the month (FOTM) builds running around. Even in GvG and – especially when it comes to high-level farming areas – PvE, there are certain preferred builds that utilize the “best” skills. People used to go nuts for nukers in farming groups; now that they’re fairly useless for quickly dispatching large groups of foes; Spiteful Spirit Necros are all the rage.

The point is, there will always be established, and polished builds that are viewed as the “best”. It’s mainly a matter of the build being already perfected; when an SS Necro looks up a build online or copies it from someone in-game, there is very little customization that is left up to him. The attributes are set, the skills are (mostly) set, and the build is widely held to be the best that it can be. When making a completely original build, a player has to go through many different iterations before reaching something that is acceptably powerful, and even then there’s no guarantee that it’s as good as it could be. It is also a matter of perception: this game is full of people who apparently believe that if it’s not an established build, not only is it inferior, it’s downright useless.

A related reason why bad skills exist is that, in any game that relies on a player’s skill, there needs to be a learning curve to teach new players what skills belong in which builds. It is a hard lesson for every new warrior to learn that Power Attack isn’t exactly as “1337” as they think it is. This is comparable to awful cards in Magic that the developers put in specifically so new players will learn how to tell what an awful card is (and I’m being perfectly serious here, they’ve admitted that they do this).

Now this is all fine and good as far as normal skills are concerned, but why must there be bad elites? Shouldn’t they be by their very nature better than everything else? The answer to this is that in this game “elite” doesn’t necessarily mean that a skill is simply better; it also means that it isn’t balanced to use it with other elite skills. Take Wither and Panic for instance. I love Wither, and Panic’s AoE energy degen is very nice, but many hold that these two elites are utter trash. However, imagine if you could combine those two skills, along with Malaise? If I could, I would, but obviously ArenaNet doesn’t think -6 energy degen should be so easy to come by. There are many other examples: Practiced Stance and Incendiary Arrows are two skills I would like to combine, but since they’re both elites that is impossible. Even the “worst” of the elites, Skullcrack, might see use if you could combine it with 100 blades or Battle Rage or Dragon Slash (once Factions comes out). It is after all a repeatable daze: if it were easier to charge up it would see a use. The point is this: elite skills are elite for a reason. Yes, some take a bit more work to make a build around than others, but if you made those same skills non-elites, they could be combined with skills that would make them overpowered.

The key difference between Guild Wars and Magic when it comes to this discussion, however, is that ArenaNet can at any time alter underused skills to make them better and nerf overpowered skills. This is good news for us as players, because it means that the meta game is constantly changing without the need for adding entirely new skills every season. So, when you see a skill that you think is a piece of trash, don’t get mad at ArenaNet. Maybe that skill wasn’t designed with players of your skill level in mind. Perhaps it was meant for a different game type: PvE instead of PvP, or GvG rather than Competition Arenas. You might even be completely missing a specific situation in which the skill shines. In the end, everyone can take heart in the fact that no skill in this game is constant. There are no bad skills in Guild Wars, it’s all just a matter of perception and current incarnation of the meta game.

awesome sauce · Jul 31, 2006, 01:50 AM // 01:50

Every skill has a use. I bet you can't find one skill that isn't used in at least one semi-well known build.

Vermilion Okeanos · Jul 31, 2006, 02:32 AM // 02:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by awesome sauce

Every skill has a use. I bet you can't find one skill that isn't used in at least one semi-well known build.

Although I agree with you, but just to point out another way to look at this

Yes, everything does something, including getting yourself flatten in the battle field.

Plushie Penguin · Jul 31, 2006, 03:24 AM // 03:24

no skills are bad, most people just can't use them right[yes, even that turn all uncharmed animals against target foe has a place, we just can't find it]
this game was based off of magic the card game

Alleji · Jul 31, 2006, 06:00 AM // 06:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

There are no bad skills in Guild Wars, it’s all just a matter of perception and current incarnation of the meta game.

TBH, I scrolled through most of your post, but judging from your conclusion, your argument isn't really worth reading.

Let's do a thought experiment. Find me a metagame where plague signet would be good. GG.

Arcador · Jul 31, 2006, 06:00 AM // 06:00

I agree that some skills are better in some arenas, but some of the skills are bad everywhere - Spoil Victor, Ether Renewal, etc...

Alleji · Jul 31, 2006, 06:09 AM // 06:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcador

I agree that some skills are better in some arenas, but some of the skills are bad everywhere - Spoil Victor, Ether Renewal, etc...

Ether Renewal used to be godly, it just got nerfed to hell.

Lowly Peasant · Jul 31, 2006, 06:20 AM // 06:20

2 very bad skills. Glyph of Sacrifice and Glyph of Essence(which makes glyph of sacrifice look like an elite).

0mar · Jul 31, 2006, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Otyugh's Cry.

The poster boy for bad skills. What is the point of this skill?

Silent Kitty · Jul 31, 2006, 07:45 AM // 07:45

Bad skills exists so I have something to cast too. Give a noob a break

Zakarr · Jul 31, 2006, 08:04 AM // 08:04

I'm sure there is lots of different good skill combinations yet to discover. Creating effective 64 skill pool is quite hard. Some of them are automatically resurrection skills so it is a bit lower. Suprise is the greatest advantage in combat.

Angel Develin · Jul 31, 2006, 12:24 PM // 12:24

bad skills 1 year ago:
Grenth's balance
Frenzy
......

the best skills now:
Grenth's balance
Frenzy
......

PPL allways wait for others to come with an idea to use a so called "bad skills".

I do not think that there is a "bad skill" it is how and when you use it that matters.
Remember it's all about team work and not whay can't I kill them all with just 7 skills?

Count to Potato · Jul 31, 2006, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mysterial

Yes, I read the argument. It's still idiotic. Just because you can't attain a perfect balance doesn't mean you shouldn't continously try to get closer.

Yeah you should, trying to obtaint a perfect balance so that everyone has an advantage over someone else works

The truth itself · Jul 31, 2006, 02:10 PM // 14:10

Have no fear of perfection - you'll never reach it. ~Salvador Dali

The Evil Monkey · Jul 31, 2006, 05:12 PM // 17:12

I was looking at stuff and I found an artical in ogaming http://guildwars.ogaming.com/data/4031~SkyyHigh3.php
Not the same but adds a couple of points

Xx Invictus xX · Jul 31, 2006, 07:45 PM // 19:45

Ya like if you capped all 180 elites and i said oh i have a signet of capture to go cap "this" you'd be like what a useless skill that is. Since you have no use for it in your build. But to me... invaluable, without this my build would never work.