Curse

Epinephrine · Aug 21, 2006, 03:17 PM // 15:17

I guess this could have been put in the "suggestions" thread, but then it would get lost with posts asking for fishing and houses for characters, or dual wielding barbarians with drop-kick special attacks. In atddition, I don't know if others feel this way, and a discussion about energy generating skills may belong in the skills section rather than buried under suggestions that bear no relation.

Ether Prodigy is a problem skill; it returns more energy by a fair margin than any other elite energy management skill. Most elite energy management skills are about 3 pips of energy, maxed out - likewise, most non-elite energy management is about 1 pip maxed out - with some exception, generally the more conditional choices.

Energy management is a critical thing in game, and overall is well balanced - it is surpising to see that OoB, MoR, Glyph of Energy, Drain Energy and such all rate at about 3 pips. Typically, the more limited the energy management is the better it performs; a skill like Power Drain generates more energy by far than a non-invested skill like Glyph of Lesser energy; this is sensible; it requires an opponent casting a spell, the skill to interrupt it and an investment in attributes; it should generate more energy than other options.

Other balance issues should be observed - like how much energy is needed to generate the energy (more energy required should be associated with a more powerful skill), the time invested in generating energy, the conditional (if any) nature of the energy generation, immediate gain versus gain over time (immediate being better, and thus it should be somewhat weaker), recharge times and ability of the enemy to deny it.

A skill like Elemental Attunement is weak compared to other choices for several reasons; by itself it generates no energy - it has its effect in savings over time. It only assists with elementalist spells. It has a long recharge, and is easily denied with enchantment removal, crippliing the user for the duration. It also requires available energy to create any gain - denied energy it generates none for example. The up front cost is rather high, given that it only generates its savings over a long period. It now (thanks to ANet's uneeded nerf) requires investment in the Energy Storage attribute to be maximally useful. It has some advantages too - low time invested (1 second/45), unconditional energy (you cast, it makes energy). The total energy provided by it is proportional to the energy spent in elementalist spells; it returns 40% of the cost of a 5 cost spell, 50% of the cost of a 10 cost spell, 47% of the cost of a 15 cost spell, etc... Since you have 4 pips of energy, minus 10 energy/45 seconds for the enchantment, it can double the remaining energy provided it is spent only on elementalist spells (and 10 cost spels at that, you lose efficiency otherwise); thus you can provide a solid 3.3+ pips of energy with this.

Ether Prodigy on the other hand has tons of advantages. Generates energy regardless of casting. Short recharge, so it could be removed but can quickly be re-established. Energy is useable for anything, skill or spell. It can power through energy denial, as it isn't contingent on casting. Starter cost is low (5 energy). Additionally, it provides more energy, despite being faster recharge and applicable to any skill - it can safely provide 4.5 pips of energy, with no buildup of Exhaustion (use it once/30 seconds) and in a pinch can generate 5.3 or so pips of energy, accumulating some exhaustion as you go.

I don't want to get into every possible situation with energy generating skills, but there are clear discrepancies in the power of these skills; The inspiration line, an attribute essentially dedicated to generating and manipulating energy has nothing near as powerful as Ether Prodigy (in fact, the top two skills max out at about 3 pips of energy produced/exchanged) despite not having a useful effect like granting 3 extra energy per point invested.

The fact is that Ether Prodigy is currently a head above all other caster energy generation skills, and is thus used in GvG for example to fuel both elementalist and monk spells. Some equality of energy generating spells should be assured, with effects balanced to the conditional nature of the spell, the vulnerability and recharge times (for example, although Attuned Was Tsungrai can't be stripped, it only provides 75% coverage and if the user is slain he is potentially without energy management for a minute) and the power of the other associated skills/attribute benefits. For example, the 3 extra energy per point in Energy Storage are useful for virtually any caster or even energy based attackers, while the bonus from Spawning Power is only of use to those creating spirits or animating undead - making the skill Attuned Was Songkai even weaker than its counterparts, since it is in an attribute that provides no additional benefits really.

Henchman · Aug 21, 2006, 03:42 PM // 15:42

Ele's are underpowered as it is and have some of the worst energy managment skills in the game. Considering Ele's require the largest energy pool in the game, this makes it even harder to manage energy.
The non-elite attunments are not really weak, you just have to choose one element and go with it.
The elite elemental attunment is weak, as it does not generate energy by itself yet it still takes an elite slot.
All attunments are suspectable to to enchantment removal making them even weaker than they are.
You make note of all the advantages Ether Prodigy has without looking at its negatives. First, this skill causes exhuastion. This kills your max energy level, and lowers its potential usage rate to about once every 30 seconds, and even more if you are already suffering from exhaustion.
It also removes all enchantments that you have on yourself- if you use this skill, you can't use any other ele managment skills, or any enchantments for the matter.
Ether Prodigy itself is an enchantment, and is suspectable to removal- you claim it can be quickly restored, which is true, but then you are paying the exhaustion penalty again, and another 5 energy as well. All other energy skills are not enchantments (with the exception of Mantra of Recall, which the energy is gained even if the enchantment is removed).
One last disadvantage: You also receive damage every time the enchantment ends based on you remaining energy. You have to get you pool as empty as possible before the spell ends. If its stripped off of you, you'll receive even more damage had you not used much of the gained enrgy yet

You only looked at the positives of the skill- of course it seemed overpowered to you. But when you look at the negatives, you'll see that its not really powerful. If anything is to be changed is that eles should receive more energy managment skills, as they are already lacking; and they should be stronger than other proffesions because ele's rely on enregy more than any other class.

/Not signed, bug thumbs down

Epinephrine · Aug 21, 2006, 04:00 PM // 16:00

No, I understand the limitations of Ether Prodigy well, playing the runner role in many of our GvGs. I've done my share of water ele/air ele, and I see the whole picture.

The exhaustion I explained by pointing out that you can manage it at once casting per 30 seconds and STILL generate 50% more energy than another elite skill.
Paying exhaustion again to get your skill back up is at least an option to get your energy - which none of the other attunment types have, nor does Attuned Was Tsungrai. If you don't need the energy don't put it back up - but the fact that you have the option to is a stict advantage. If it had a 30 second recharge it wouldn't be an option.

The damage from it is minimal. Even if you fill your energy bar it's one simple heal to repair the damage. Heck, Offering of Blood sacrifices 20% of your health as a payment for it - and generates less energy by a substantial margin; that's about 100 health sacrificed, equivalent to always having 50 energy when Ether Prodigy ends.

It is truly powerful - there's a reason that eles are used as the energy engine for spamming heal party/blinding flash as well as for fueling degeneration with mesmer degeneration skills.
----------------------

You can go ahead and try to justify it by referring to eles being weak, but I'd suggest that boosting their power would be the way to go, not pimping them out as energy sources for heal party through a skill that is overpowered. Ether Prodigy is a broken skill. The balance of the other skills effectiveness should also be altered.

llsektorll · Aug 21, 2006, 04:15 PM // 16:15

you can do all your math and type your essays on ether prodigy but when you get down to it in GvG its as simple has just draining the ether prodigy as soon as it goes up...

Gigashadow · Aug 21, 2006, 06:16 PM // 18:16

Ether Prodigy has a short reset, and putting it back up is not a big deal. It's only if they keep draining it the second it goes up that it's a problem, but it's not hard to stay out of range of the enchantment removal guy. Enchantment removal tends to have a longer reset also.

Vermilion Okeanos · Aug 21, 2006, 06:59 PM // 18:59

I agree that there need to be more than just "What should be my energy management? Duh, ether prodigy."

Also, I disagree that ele got bad energy management skills (even without ether prodigy).

Master Fuhon · Aug 21, 2006, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Henchman covered the weaknesses with Ether Prodigy, and I hope you can see that casting it on yourself while under protective/healing enchantments will make you a ripe target for a moment. Elementalist self-defensive skills are also enchantment based, meaning you have to recast them from using this spell. Your self healing will be limited to a 10 cost spell, either recasting Aura of Resoration/Healing Breeze after the next cast, or by using Heal Area. You could also not heal yourself, or be really great at using Ether Prodigy at low energy to take almost no damage.

OoB is screwed by double-touch rangers. Inspiration line is subject to dual recharge gear. For the enchantments: Channeling is ridiculous if you are using it in the right place, and not elite. MoR would become a better skill if it only cost 5 energy and returned 5 less, but it's subject to being used as monk CoP fuel and to being a cover enchant. Enchant ripping is the domain of mesmers who dictate what you do with them, and lesser so by necromancers or assassins. Or as someone else could say, mesmers are overpowered.

Skills that are available from a secondary are all subject to abuse from one popular build or another. These shouldn't be compared because it is the extreme use that will dictate the cap on the skills power. Monks are ruthlessly efficient from combining divine favor with further energy management. Necro primary gives energy gain, so it's a tough one to work with when spirit spamming is around. Most ritualist builds aren't usable in the mainstream, so why should another class be nerfed because of this?

If it comes down to a mesmer vs. e/me casting kind of thing, then you just have to accept that the mesmer is not meant to get all his energy management packed nicely into one skill, because then they would be godly at everything mesmer. Warriors use shock better than an elementalist ever could. Inspiration line provides a skill that can lengthen illusion hexes length, and this apparently isn't adequate to you because an elementalist can spam these skills on a group.

No primary should have a lock as being the best at using every skill for the class. Careful with touching ether prodigy until other balances occur.

sno · Aug 21, 2006, 08:04 PM // 20:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gigashadow

Ether Prodigy has a short reset, and putting it back up is not a big deal. It's only if they keep draining it the second it goes up that it's a problem, but it's not hard to stay out of range of the enchantment removal guy. Enchantment removal tends to have a longer reset also.

It's actually a much bigger deal than you let on... If a prod gets shattered 3-4 times and the ele REALLY needs energy, he'll still have to recast prod. At this point he's 50% exhausted or more, for little to no gain. Exhausting a flagstand ele is a great way to get a team to crack, as their defense often resides a lot on him and his massive energy pool.

I know I heard it from our flagstand ele when he got shattered a bunch of times, he was deemed nearly useless, while taking heavy damage, just by a couple drains or shatters.

Eprod doesn't need a nerf, it's the other energy management that could use a buff. Dual attunements are really nice (best energy management ever for a single-attribute ele) but they're also very conditional on your skill bar and them not being removed. Eprod isn't nearly as good, but it's much less conditional, and is still quite effective. The other energy management skills simply don't hold up, and never see play (except second wind on some bars, that's a nice skill.) Ether renewal was great, but when it got nerfed it completely rendered the skill unusable.

Vermilion Okeanos · Aug 22, 2006, 04:42 AM // 04:42

The problem with dual attunement is that, it only help in ele line. With ele's metagame being utility support and occasional spike, ether prodigy can provide energy for both ele line and 2ndary line; that is something elemental attunement can never do for you, and nothing can compete with ether prodigy.

Tark Alkerk · Aug 22, 2006, 05:45 AM // 05:45

nerfing ether prodigy would be a bad idea because in a GvG situation,
there are at least going to be 2 enchantment removals or more,
all the ither team has to do is remove it quickly and ele will soon be exhusted from trying to re-prodigy and keep Heal party/aegis/whatever up on his team.

Arcador · Aug 22, 2006, 08:25 AM // 08:25

I play most of the time Elementalist in GvG and I agree that Ether prodigy provides far more advantage than any elite of the elementalist. Why taking elemental atunement, when prodigy gives you again same energy benefit BUT you can use it for secondary spells? The damage and exhaustion part is tricky, but the ele can take it. I completely agree with the Op about the whole view. And I also think this skill need some sort of reworking. Noone will ever use other variants except maybe second wind while he have this. Why using glyphs, when they got big recharge and you can just cast prodigy? It supersides not only energy management skills but also and many of the ele elites. When was the last time you saw elementalist elite different from that in gvg?

Don't look on that like "great, now they will s.crew the ele big time!" but a way to bring more variety and diversity of the game. It is stupid every single ele to have this skill as every single ritualist have Ritual Lord. For example Rangers use a lot Crippling shot, but the skill got it's cost - little cripple, big cost and there are many ranger elites that can be used effectivly instead of this.

There is the same problem with Ritualist. Ritual Lord is so much better than any of his other elites, that almost noone takes them ever! Sometimes some rit dudes take other skills but that is not common situation. Spirit Light someone? It is stupid compared Warding weapon which does not have conditional use, gives a slightly less hp per second, but grants 50% block chance.
sorry for the offtopic

falling demon · Aug 22, 2006, 06:30 PM // 18:30

to be honest, i think, when dual enchants are up, the energy gain should be combined, you might say 'But they are! you get the 50% and the 30%' but the problem is they arent merged, its 50, then 30, not 80%, e.g:

5 e spell, 30% is 1.5 energy, and 50% is 2.5 energy, both are rounded down, so with both, you get 1+2 energy back, if they were merged, 80% is FOUR energy, so you get another one back, it doesn't seem like much, but it all counts

however i dont agree on ether prodigy, i HATE having exhaustion, dont know why, but it bugs me, i actually take dual attunes OVER ether prodigy

IMO, it depends on the skills you use, if you're using quite a few 15 and 25 energy spells, dual attunes are better, but if you're running 5-10 (maybe 15) energy spells then ether is probably better

look at it this way, with ether prod, you have 10 pips, which is 10 energy every 3 secs (3.33 per sec) if you cast a 25 energy spell, it takes ever so slightly over 7.5 secs to get your energy from that spell back

with dual attunements, youll have 4 pips (1.33 energy per sec, 4 energy per 3 secs), when you cast a 25 energy spell, you get 30% (7.5 energy, rounded down to 7, ^^ see my short rant about that) and 50% (12.5 energy rounded to 12) so you get 19 energy back, now it only takes just over 4.5 secs to regain the energy lost.

so with 25e spells:
Prod: 7.5 secs
Dual Attunements: 4.5 secs
Attunements Win.

15e:
Prod: 4.5 secs
Dual Attunements: 2.25 secs
Attunements Win.

10e:
Prod: 3 secs
Dual Attunements: 1.5 secs
Attunements Win Again

5e:
Prod: 1.5 secs exactly
Dual Attunements: 1.5 secs
Even (but see my rant ^^, if that was in place, Attunements would be better)

but then again, prodigy also gains energy while casting, so in that respect, Prodigy could be better, Prodigy can also be used with ordinary attunement, so Prodigy can be the best energy management in the ele line, minus the exhaustion. (which then means that prodigy cant be up all the time, or it can, but youll be exhausted fast)

when weighed up Pro's and Con's, i'd say both are equal, and it depends how you use them.

Epinephrine · Aug 22, 2006, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Anyone making the "dual attunement" argument must realise that they are combining TWO skills to save energy. The correct comparison would be between

Ether Prodigy + non-elite attunement
and
Dual attunement

With ether prod + attunement, you have 10 pips, which is 10 energy every 3 secs (3.33 per sec) if you cast a 25 energy spell, you regain 7 from the attunement and it takes 5.4 secs to get your energy from that spell back.

With dual attunements, youll have 4 pips (1.33 energy per sec, 4 energy per 3 secs), when you cast a 25 energy spell, you get 30% (7.5 energy, rounded down to 7, ^^ see my short rant about that) and 50% (12.5 energy rounded to 12) so you get 19 energy back, now it only takes just over 4.5 secs to regain the energy lost.

so with 25e spells:
Prod: 5.4 secs
Dual Attunements: 4.5 secs
Attunements Win.

15e:
Prod: 3.3 secs
Dual Attunements: 3 secs
Attunements Win.

10e:
Prod: 2.1 secs
Dual Attunements: 1.5 secs
Attunements Win Again

5e:
Prod: 1.2 secs
Dual Attunements: 1.5 secs
Advantage to Prod

I'll grant you that for the purpose of casting a single element's spells the dual attunement is slightly better, and doesn't involve exhaustion. If you die though and are rezzed you must wait out the duration of the recharge to be effective, you can't get going fast if your energy is drained and the spells run out, etc... There are certainly times when it is a better choice though.

There are times when Channeling is a better choice than either, and it isn't even elite.

I'm not trying to be evil about it; I want elementalists to have more to do than power heal party and run wards. I don't like that Ether Prodigy is the power supply for everything, and the margin by which it edges out the other competitors. There are definitely situations in which the others outperform Ether Prodigy - for example, OoB benefits from recharge speed increases, so in fact you can gain a bit more energy from it by equipping +recharge gear; Drain Enchantment likewise can be increased in this way, and even Mantra of Recall, if Tranquility is in play to shorten the enchantment duration. I recognise that there are strengths to the other option, but Ether prodigy feels too powerful.

Not by a ton, just a bit; if all the others are returning 3 pips and EP is returning between 4.5 and 5.3 it seems a bit excessive.

Mysterial · Aug 22, 2006, 09:38 PM // 21:38

I don't think there's any question that Ether Prodigy is the most powerful energy management skill in the game by a large margin. And there's a reason it is - because if it isn't, there are no Elementalist primaries playing high level PvP and Arenanet knows it. It's a hack around the fact that Energy Storage by itself sucks. If you want to fix Ether Prodigy, fix Energy Storage first.

around · Aug 23, 2006, 09:50 AM // 09:50

Make energy storage so you get extra energy regen, instead of more energy.

Increase the base energy level of ele armour to around 40-50.

Hex Nexus · Aug 23, 2006, 11:36 AM // 11:36

I love me some Ether Prodigy.
/notsigned

Shaznat · Aug 23, 2006, 01:17 PM // 13:17

/notsigned

I never come in this section, but when I noticed this I couldn't help but respond. There is no way the ele should have it's only viable role left in GvG taken away from it by nerfing Ether Prodigy. Until they buff the other lines damage so eles are used like they are supposed to be, they will be supports characters, and Ether Prodigy needs to be the way it is.

pegasux · Aug 23, 2006, 03:45 PM // 15:45

i agree with Shaznat about EP whole heartedly. What role would be left for an ele without EP? Until they Buff skills and lowerNRG per skill and cast times, ele's will need to stay as utility players.

Vermilion Okeanos · Aug 23, 2006, 05:00 PM // 17:00

Well, look at it this way... if they do nerf EP, then Anet would go "Omg, no one play ele anymore! We better fix their primary skills fast!!"

If all would just go so smoothly...

But honestly, in many ways, ele is very balance in the damage they can deal compare to other class... it is just that their damage get own by prot spirit so ridiculously badly (aside shockwave). The whole reason they went me/e fast cast spike was to by pass prot spirit easier (until they nerf/buff dual attunement).

Shortyafter · Aug 23, 2006, 06:26 PM // 18:26

It's stupid for anyone to say that Ether Prodigy isn't by far the best energy management in the game. Having your prodigy constantly drained/shattered means that you need to get much farther back and only come up to cast wards or something. If you're way in your backline you should still be able to cast Blinding Flash on warriors. If the mesmer is still shattering you from there, then your warriors suck.

However, I can't agree with a nerf because then eles would be totally useless in competitive PvP. Until ANet fixes or is prepared to fix the ele, then no nerf to EP please.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vermilion Okeanos

But honestly, in many ways, ele is very balance in the damage they can deal compare to other class... it is just that their damage get own by prot spirit so ridiculously badly (aside shockwave). The whole reason they went me/e fast cast spike was to by pass prot spirit easier (until they nerf/buff dual attunement).

Actually it was so you could fit a spike within the duration of a gale.