Curse

Aisius · Jul 18, 2006, 08:50 AM // 08:50

Still doesn't change the fact that two skills Vamperic Bite and Vamperic Touch are exactly the same.

I think nerfing them isn't the way to go. I think making every other profession have duplicate skills is.

Evilsod · Jul 18, 2006, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aisius

Still doesn't change the fact that two skills Vamperic Bite and Vamperic Touch are exactly the same.

I think nerfing them isn't the way to go. I think making every other profession have duplicate skills is.

Ancestors Visage
Sympathetic Visage

Sundering Attack
Penetrating Shot

Point Blank Shot
Zojuns Shot

Dodge
Zojuns Haste

Tenei's Heat
Searing Heat

Penetrating Chop
*duplicate name*

There are loads of duplicate names for other professions. If you actually looked you know that, its just none of them are used in the same respect as Bite/Touch.

Dyon Adell · Jul 19, 2006, 06:05 AM // 06:05

Well. I play Spike 90% of the time, and I rarely meet problems with touch rangers, as long as I get a decent team(a team that has a caller and the rest cooperate) at RA.

But more than half the time, especially when I'm with 2-3 rangers in my team, I normally do Drain Enchantment, someone cripples him, and we spike the shet out of him. Then some drama goes.

My team's ranger: Haha noob touch!
Touch ranger: sdfu
Second ranger on my team: Aww... touchers just suck!
Me: Lol

There was only one occassion my team got pwned by a touch ranger, and that's cause no one communicated in team chat at all.

twicky_kid · Jul 19, 2006, 06:22 AM // 06:22

All they have to do to nerf this is add a clause to the touch skills stating "Expertise does not lower the energy cost of this skill"

That doesn't change the power of the skills.

IMO touchers are junk. I kill them in RA and AB very easily with just about any build I use. Its not the build that counters touchers its tactics.

Aisius · Jul 19, 2006, 06:45 AM // 06:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Ancestors Visage
Sympathetic Visage

Sundering Attack
Penetrating Shot

Point Blank Shot
Zojuns Shot

Dodge
Zojuns Haste

Tenei's Heat
Searing Heat

Penetrating Chop
*duplicate name*

There are loads of duplicate names for other professions. If you actually looked you know that, its just none of them are used in the same respect as Bite/Touch.

Ancestors Visage max use 18 secs 10 energy 30 secs recharge
Sympathetic Visage max use 18 secs 10 energy 30 secs recharge

Sundering Attack 10 energy 3 secs recharge
Penetrating Shot 10 energy 3 secs recharge

Point Blank Shot 10 energy 3 secs recharge
Zojuns Shot 10 energy 3 secs recharge

Dodge max use 10 secs cost 5 energy 30 secs recharge
Zojuns Haste max use 10 secs cost 5 energy 30 secs recharge

Tenei's Heat use 3 sec cost 25 energy 30 secs recharge
Searing Heat use 3 secs cost 25 energy 30 secs recharge

Penetrating Chop 5 adren
Penetrating Blow 5 adren

Vamperic Bite steal life max 65 damage cost 15 energy 2 secs recharge
Vamperic Touch steal life max 65 damage cost 15 energy 2 secs recharge

Because there skills energy cost is reduced maybe if other professions had a way of reducing there costs I would agree the examples you gave make the whole skill duplication across all professions balanced.

Dyon Adell · Jul 19, 2006, 08:45 AM // 08:45

Yeah. Basically, the touch build is like a sword. How deadly it is is dependant on the weilder. Same goes to all other builds. Should be "How can I improve against strong touch players", not "How to nerf touch rangers".

Ure Maker · Jul 19, 2006, 01:11 PM // 13:11

if u nerf touchers u nerf necros, many necros use some touch spells to stay alive so they can run to regen, or blood spiker builds that necros use, they use these spells, necros will be hit hard with any sort of nerf that touch rangers get.

Sir Mad · Jul 19, 2006, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aisius

Ancestors Visage max use 18 secs 10 energy 30 secs recharge
Sympathetic Visage max use 18 secs 10 energy 30 secs recharge

Sundering Attack 10 energy 3 secs recharge
Penetrating Shot 10 energy 3 secs recharge

Point Blank Shot 10 energy 3 secs recharge
Zojuns Shot 10 energy 3 secs recharge

Dodge max use 10 secs cost 5 energy 30 secs recharge
Zojuns Haste max use 10 secs cost 5 energy 30 secs recharge

Tenei's Heat use 3 sec cost 25 energy 30 secs recharge
Searing Heat use 3 secs cost 25 energy 30 secs recharge

Penetrating Chop 5 adren
Penetrating Blow 5 adren

Vamperic Bite steal life max 65 damage cost 15 energy 2 secs recharge
Vamperic Touch steal life max 65 damage cost 15 energy 2 secs recharge

Because there skills energy cost is reduced maybe if other professions had a way of reducing there costs I would agree the examples you gave make the whole skill duplication across all professions balanced.

Compare what is comparable. You're saying for example that having Dodge and Zojun's Haste is not a problem because of the recharge time. However with both skills you can avoid 78% projectiles and move 33% faster 22 secs out. Isn't it really powerful as well? A skill is not only about the energy it costs or the recharge time, you know, it's also about the effect...

Aisius · Jul 19, 2006, 10:30 PM // 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Mad

Compare what is comparable. You're saying for example that having Dodge and Zojun's Haste is not a problem because of the recharge time. However with both skills you can avoid 78% projectiles and move 33% faster 22 secs out. Isn't it really powerful as well? A skill is not only about the energy it costs or the recharge time, you know, it's also about the effect...

Wasn't what I was trying to get at though. Only reason I listed those abilities was because that's what was put forward as being duplicate spells.

In the examples I gave the effect duration v's recharge time is what makes or breaks a spammable skill set.

From what I'm aware (could be wrong) with 16 points in expertise the 15 energy cost is reduced to near 5 energy and as those skills are a 2 sec recharge they become spammable for a touch ranger.

If your aware of any more abilities in professions that are "powerful" by all means list them. I'd be interested to see some duplicate abilities that will dominate AB /pvp like the Vamp touch/bite combo.

Evilsod · Jul 19, 2006, 11:28 PM // 23:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aisius

If your aware of any more abilities in professions that are "powerful" by all means list them. I'd be interested to see some duplicate abilities that will dominate AB /pvp like the Vamp touch/bite combo.

You don't know what your talking about... They have 2 duplicate skills... yes... they can spam them alot... yes... therefore they're been abused? In that respsect i could say using Sympathetic Visage and Ancestors Visage is powerful merely because it gives twice as long with 0 energy/adren for Monsters in PvE. The duplicates exist, just because they don't have a build dedicated to them doesn't mean they should be nerfed because people are too dumb to bring a counter. In ABs there are 12 players. 4 of whom you can choose. If your telling me that there is no space in any of 32 slots for something specifically anti-touchy, then its no-ones fault but your own.

Please, no bullshit about how you shouldn't have to counter them. Eles bring Blurred Vision and Blinding Flash for a reason. Rangers bring Cripshot or Interrupts. Mesmers bring Interrupts, snares, degen or shutdown. Players will often bring Veratis Gaze/Aura to counter MMs. People bring LOTS of things to counter in AB.

As for how Diversion has a massive weakness, let me point 1 thing out to you. If you have ever played a touch ranger you'd know that to continue spamming skills against 1 target you have to keep that target *selected* You can't casually press Alt to see whats going on around you like a warrior can, there is very little chance a touch ranger will see Diversion coming, when he does, its probably too late. Also why not bring along Scourge Sacrifice? 40% health sacrifice? No thanks. Sacrificing about 200 health and only gaining 4 more touchers isn't that good a deal. Not to mention its perfect for MMs, specially if they bring Veratis Aura to counter yours, 66% health sacrifice is not pleasant.

xnightmythx · Jul 20, 2006, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Here, let me do the moderators job since they are asleep at the wheel.

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antoninus · Jul 21, 2006, 07:00 AM // 07:00

Interrupt and snaring would mess up an unprepared touch ranger (i see a lot using Whirling Defense). I say snaring would be the easiest way to counter them. If he can't get near you, he can't touch you and he's useless. With my ranger i use Crippling Shot + Hunter's Shot + Apply Poison against Touchies. Sometimes i go Interrupt and just anticipate the touches. its not that hard :P

Sir Mad · Jul 21, 2006, 11:32 AM // 11:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by antoninus

Interrupt and snaring would mess up an unprepared touch ranger (i see a lot using Whirling Defense). I say snaring would be the easiest way to counter them. If he can't get near you, he can't touch you and he's useless. With my ranger i use Crippling Shot + Hunter's Shot + Apply Poison against Touchies. Sometimes i go Interrupt and just anticipate the touches. its not that hard :P

Well there are threads about touchers in every forums except Ventari's Sell so I'm sure I've already posted that somewhere.

Indeed, snare is the best crippling skill vs a touch ranger. The standard touch build includes whirling defense, throw dirt, and Dodge (78% with 16 exp), which means Crippling Shot won't be that efficient against an experienced touch ranger. However, most of the team do one mistake againt touch rangers - typically their team chat sounds like:

X: A noob toucher, kill him!
Y: I'm using Crippling Shot on Touch Ranger!
Z (melee fighter): I'm attacking Touch Ranger!
(2 secs)
Z: WTF?!
Z: I have crippled on me!

Don't forget touch rangers bring Plague Touch. If you want to put conditions on them, fine, but then kite them. If someone is close, the touch ranger will spam Plague Touch to get rid of his conditions. And actually crippling can help him if he tranfers the condition to the nearby oponent he wanna kill: he won't be able to run then. Pets are also generally loved by touch rangers for that as well, thanks to their poor AI: they'll keep attacking and following them for a while even if their master has switched to another target. And having a pet to follow you is having somthing to transfer his conditions to in 1/4 secs all the time.

In my mind (as someone who has played a touch ranger), the best way to kill a a touch ranger is the degens. With -8 or -10 degen and targets kitting, the touch won't last long. Touch rangers don't have self healing except the 2 vamp skills, ie: they can't heal if there is no one around.

And to those who complain about the spammability of the vamp skills: just use a skill that becomes more efficient against spammable skills - SS anyone? How many times have I seen necros using SS against a monk when it could have been way more efficient aginst the touch ranger?

SnipiousMax · Jul 21, 2006, 01:24 PM // 13:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Mad

Indeed, snare is the best crippling skill vs a touch ranger. The standard touch build includes whirling defense, throw dirt, and Dodge (78% with 16 exp), which means Crippling Shot won't be that efficient against an experienced touch ranger.

Crippling shot doesn't miss. It can't be blocked or evaded, so Whirling and Dodge do nothing to get away from Crippling Shot. I also cover my Cripple with other condtions (ie... Poison) that are easily reapplied and prevent the toucher from easily removing cripple. Granted it still requires people kiting.

LordLucifer · Jul 21, 2006, 02:40 PM // 14:40

change vamp skills to spells, reduce the cost to 10 energy, problem solved

yes i did play toucher, yes it is powerful and boring to play and yes it needs a nerf badly, or make it like a normal attack, affected by evasion, block and blindness, afterall its easier to swing a sword and hit something blind than trying to...touch ppl blind

Evilsod · Jul 22, 2006, 12:55 AM // 00:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordLucifer

change vamp skills to spells, reduce the cost to 10 energy, problem solved

yes i did play toucher, yes it is powerful and boring to play and yes it needs a nerf badly, or make it like a normal attack, affected by evasion, block and blindness, afterall its easier to swing a sword and hit something blind than trying to...touch ppl blind

Did you read anything other than the threads name?

LordLucifer · Jul 22, 2006, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evilsod

Did you read anything other than the threads name?

of course i did!...the 1st post!

btw if touchers dont need to be nerfed why is the "smart thinking" required to defeat them but no other builds in this game need such a thing? hmm yah they surelly dont need a nerf...

edit: now lets focus on thinking of ways to defeat the goldy axe spikers and MMs in PvP.....¬¬

(note: all PvP builds should have 6 optional skills, 1 res and 1 smart anti toucher for now on cause game will be ballanced again if we do that)

Evilsod · Jul 23, 2006, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by LordLucifer

of course i did!...the 1st post!

btw if touchers dont need to be nerfed why is the "smart thinking" required to defeat them but no other builds in this game need such a thing? hmm yah they surelly dont need a nerf...

edit: now lets focus on thinking of ways to defeat the goldy ask spikers and MMs in PvP.....¬¬

(note: all PvP builds should have 6 optional skills, 1 res and 1 smart anti toucher for now on cause game will be ballanced again if we do that)

What the hell are you talking about? If you'd of read any of this thread (or the other 300 threads about them) you'd see a few 100 people whining about them, and just as many simply reeling or all the counters available.

Erm what the hell is an ask spiker? If you mean Air Spiker, interrupt it... its not hard. MMs? You don't have a clue do you, the entire smiting line is a counter to MMs. Even the MM himself usually carries 1 of the biggest counters (in order to counter-counter).

Is it just me or does that note: not make sense?

LordLucifer · Jul 23, 2006, 09:54 AM // 09:54

corrected the typo

hmm you really didnt get the sarcasm? lol
(yah i know they are powerful but not overpowered, most ppl can defeat them without "special skills")

muymoo · Jul 23, 2006, 07:07 PM // 19:07

well, i don't think anyone else has recommended this counter, but with a cripshot build but as a R/N you can take out a touch in no time. just crip shot, which cannot be blocked, and throw on rigor mortis For 8-18 seconds, target foe cannot block or evade. cost 10 casting time 2 recharge 30. yes, it isn't the cheapest, but 1v1 the touchie has no chance, and it's only substituting one skill so u dont have to change ur whole skill bar for only one build. do u really need diversion in AB?
roughly my build
cripshot (elite)
apply poison or kindle arrows (with kindle substitute dual shot for any other attack skill)
hunter's shot
debilitating shot
troll
any stance
running skill
rez