Curse

qvtkc · Dec 07, 2006, 05:56 PM // 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akhilleus

so long as you walk around displaying the idea that playing half-assed is ok, you contribute to the degredation of the gaming quality of the population. as long as you demand more of people, and screw them over as best you can when nothing is done, they may (eventually) realize the true source of the problem, and fix it, making the gaming population better as a whole.

the only perceived downside to my philosophy is that you can end up pissing off a few people that werent worth playing with anyway.
is it a harsh stance? yes.
but its also one aimed at improving things.

If you actually believe yourself then things are very very sad.

Anyway

1) PvE in this game is so easy that in the vast majority of cases you can have 1, 2 or even 3 total idiots in a team, it doesn't matter, if everyone else does their best you will still win the mission/clear out the farming area/finish the quest/whatever you are doing.

2) When I work or do sports or whatever, I expect people to be professional about it. When I play a game I expect them and myself to have fun. If the 1, 2 or 3 idiots mentioned above are friendly and can tell a good joke or put some feeling into the gameplay, then this will lead to a more rewarding experience than an unfriendly but very good player would.

3) If you see someone who is stupid or a failure, why would you beat him until he improves? Give him a tip or two instead if you are so l33t yourself. Explaining what a bad player does wrong can help him to improve, while shouting "omfg nubs stay out of maelstrom" and leaving will not improve anything.

ngtv · Dec 07, 2006, 07:57 PM // 19:57

I play as monk for a long time now. My ele,necro and warr char which i played on start are now only storage slots(although Drok run with warr bring me nice amount of money at the time...).
I started to play as a monk because my guild needed someone to level players and show them the ropes and monk was perfect choice for that task. Now I only play as a Monk.

In PvE I try be as quiet as I can, stay in the back and do my job. Most of the time thats the situation. But at least once a day i get "i hate monks" or "heal, noob monk" lines and this almost every time from tank standing in AoE or not paying attention on his hexes.
At that time i just leave a group. Then I get PM "Why did u leave, stupid monk?!!" etc.. which is immediately followed by Ignore.
I leave not because I'm angry or insulted but because of a simple time saving. Teams with players like this are doomed and its just better to leave them then waste time.
As I said this happens at least once a day so I can understand monks asking for money or having an attitude or any other unpopular behavior.

One more important thing. People(other the monks) need to understand. Playing as a monk is much harder then playing any other class. There is almost no combo which u can use and wait for 5-10sec while its finished and then just repeat everything again. Number of clicks/keys which I make is 10+ times then normal tank who hits space on his target and then combos skills. Also whole party depends on number of choices monk needs to make in VERY VERY short time frame(example: u see 3 or more party members below 30% and u need to decide immediately who will be sacrificed for the good of the team. This happens at least once in 2 fights...).

Akhilleus · Dec 08, 2006, 02:47 AM // 02:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

If you actually believe yourself then things are very very sad.

Anyway

1) PvE in this game is so easy that in the vast majority of cases you can have 1, 2 or even 3 total idiots in a team, it doesn't matter, if everyone else does their best you will still win the mission/clear out the farming area/finish the quest/whatever you are doing.

2) When I work or do sports or whatever, I expect people to be professional about it. When I play a game I expect them and myself to have fun. If the 1, 2 or 3 idiots mentioned above are friendly and can tell a good joke or put some feeling into the gameplay, then this will lead to a more rewarding experience than an unfriendly but very good player would.

3) If you see someone who is stupid or a failure, why would you beat him until he improves? Give him a tip or two instead if you are so l33t yourself. Explaining what a bad player does wrong can help him to improve, while shouting "omfg nubs stay out of maelstrom" and leaving will not improve anything.

please, try reading my post before you respond.
i clearly said that if they dont respond to suggestions on how not to launch the team into a brick wall, then you need to start taking more drastic members; ie not healing/ressing them; or, in the case of monks, have the seccond one try to take over, if possible.
and since when has not sucking been equated with unfriendlyness?
i also stated, that the better the group is, the more likely i am to kick back and enjoy myself. why? simple:
if my group is populated with numbnuts, i'm going to be spending most my time being dedicated to trying to keep the group afloat. if i realize this isnt possible, ill resort to more drastic measures; telling people what needs to be done for us not to fail. if rational advice is still ignored, then i will start ignoring people; let them die, and let them deal with it. leaving the group is a last resort.
if, however, the group wisens up and gets its act together (which does occasionally happen), then ill start to lighten up.
if someone is a bad player, AND they are wasting their time chatting it up (as you soemhow think this is a good thing?) i will VERY quickly lose patience with the group.
if our group is failing, but i can see that people are trying their best, i will stick with it untill the end. many times ive ended up doling out candycanes in order to keep a group together that is putting forth effort (this is usually the case when a group is populated by a coupple morons who sink the team to near death, and leave...leaving the group undermanned, but without idiots). most of the time a group in the aforementioned situation will succeed.

qvtkc · Dec 08, 2006, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akhilleus

if someone is a bad player, AND they are wasting their time chatting it up (as you soemhow think this is a good thing?)

I play PvE with a friend, mostly. We are not even in the same guild, but still we play together most of the time. During the elite mission weekend we went to Urgoz' Warren and joined a PUG. It was the worst team I've ever been in, skillwise... I'm not superpro, but me and my friend were clearly the only players in the team who were even half decent. One of the monks was very drunk (and afk half of the time), one of the warriors kept rushing headfirst into the enemy and then demanding rez, and our ranger constantly started pulling the next group of enemies while the rest of us were rezzing fallen party members. To put it short, it was the kind of group you would abandon right away.
...needless to mention, I still laugh my ass off when I think about it. With such a group, you might be shocked at their complete lack of skill and talent, but at least you are never bored. So yes, I think it's a good thing.

But no matter. Your post perfectly illustrates why monks are held in low regard by some players. Who are you to tell people what to do and what not to do? Back when I was a newbie, me and the previously mentioned friend henched the whole game. Most of the time we had no clue what we were doing, so I assume we did a lot of mistakes. Alesia is (or... should be) crap compared to any human monk. Yet she managed to keep us (warrior and elementalist) alive most of the time. And she never opened her mouth to tell us that we are doing everythig wrong, and she never ever left (except once. no, jk).
Why are monks held in low regard? Because as soon as they have to actually work hard (and yes, monks do work hard, look at ngtv's post for example) they start complaining. And then they leave. The worst part is that if they stayed put and did their job instead of whining the team would probably actually make it to the end of the mission or whatever, but when a monk leaves he inevitably dooms the party. (not really - I've been in a party that finished the dragon's lair bonus after both primary monks left)

In fact, monks are special in that respect. The friend I mentioned likes to play monk in sf farm teams. Most healer monks there use Word of Healing. He uses Healing Hands as elite, reasoning that with at minimum two enchantments on each person most of the time, Dwayna's Kiss is plenty of healing, so no need for WoH. Inevitably, the bonder monk will see him use HH, and in about 60% of the cases will say something like "WoH is better than HH" or "Healing Hands is noob". Now who asked the bonder monk? No one, he just felt compelled to open her mouth. When my friend explains his rationale, usually with a mathematical example, the bonder usually thinks up some insult. And yet my friend manages to keep the team alive, usually doing a better job than most monks you can find there.

Monks hold the lives of the entire party in their hands. Unfortunately some monks think that that gives them some kind of right to say whatever they like, and interfere with other's gameplay. Whatever happened to shutting up and doing your job? And no. Your job is not to tell others how to play. Especially not when most of that is blaming others for your own failures.

Having to sacrifice the life of one to save three others is not your failure.
Not healing a player who you can heal with no ill effect on your team is your failure, even if that player "should" do whatever he does in some other manner. If you do that, how will you motivate the team taking you instead of Mhenlo?

Effigy · Dec 08, 2006, 06:47 PM // 18:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtck

Monks hold the lives of the entire party in their hands. Unfortunately some monks think that that gives them some kind of right to say whatever they like, and interfere with other's gameplay. Whatever happened to shutting up and doing your job? And no. Your job is not to tell others how to play. Especially not when most of that is blaming others for your own failures.

And other players have the right to interfere with my gameplay by doing stupid things and making my job difficult? If I (the monk) decided to tank a bunch of melee mobs, or run off and aggro a patrol, or start casting Meteor Shower instead of healing the group, do you think they are going to sit quietly by and "do their job" while I make a fool of myself? Of course not. They'll be spamming things like this:
"I'm dead!"
"I'm dead!"
"I'm dead!"
"heal noob monk zomg"
"lolz meteor shower"
"wtf stop aggro"

If I'm not doing my job, they have every right to call me on it. Just like I have every right to call them out when they do something idiotic. Expecting people to use common sense is not "interfering with other's gameplay." If they don't use common sense, they are "interfering with other's gameplay" by making everyone's job harding and risking failure for the whole group.

Rera · Dec 08, 2006, 07:05 PM // 19:05

@qvtkc
Like I said, this argument isn't going to go anywhere.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

But again, the fundamental difference between you and me is that you think "crappy playing is ok".

Your first paragraph is a perfect example of this difference. I would not have tolerated that group, and I would not have laughed about it. When I play with morons, I find it extremely frustrating and not the least bit fun or funny.

You continue to assert that our behavior comes from being a monk and "holding the lives of the entire party" in our hands. I maintain that this is false, because I do the same thing on any of my characters. It has nothing to do with being a monk, and everything to do with refusing to put up with rampant idiocy.

People who don't like my policy are more than welcome to find another group (if I'm leading) or kick me (if they're leading). I don't see anything wrong with people taking Mhenlo, and I don't see any reason why I should persuade people to take me instead. I am more than happy doing everything with heroes and henchmen, so I have no incentive to cater to people who would rather just screw around or do their own thing.

qvtkc · Dec 08, 2006, 07:47 PM // 19:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effigy

If I'm not doing my job, they have every right to call me on it. Just like I have every right to call them out when they do something idiotic. Expecting people to use common sense is not "interfering with other's gameplay." If they don't use common sense, they are "interfering with other's gameplay" by making everyone's job harding and risking failure for the whole group.

You are right, I spoke hastily. But I did not mean obviously retarded things like monks casting Meteor Shower. I meant people who, when they see a wammo using Mending, will ping that 300 times followed by no healing for that wammo. I meant people who, when a caster pulls an enemy group, shouts "STOP THAT OR I LEAVE!!!!" (and then actually leave). I mean people who will insult my friend for keeping the party alive. And these people happen to be mostly monks.

I still stand by this statement:

Having to sacrifice the life of one to save three others is not your failure.
Not healing a player who you can heal with no ill effect on your team is your failure, even if that player "should" do whatever he does in some other manner.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

I would not have tolerated that group, and I would not have laughed about it. When I play with morons, I find it extremely frustrating and not the least bit fun or funny.

Ok you need to relax. It's just a game, and an easy one at that. Of course I won't like it when it really matters. If I get a party together with the explicit purpose of getting masters in Eternal Grove, I will be very annoyed at the losers who can't stay at their gate etc. But in the vast majority of cases you can have a group of people who make a whole lot of mistakes and yet come out winning, and if that happens... what have you lost? Maybe you broke a nail when you had to heal a caster who didn't kite

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtck

I use that handle for one reason: people can't spell it

Akhilleus · Dec 08, 2006, 08:57 PM // 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

@qvtkc
Like I said, this argument isn't going to go anywhere.

Your first paragraph is a perfect example of this difference. I would not have tolerated that group, and I would not have laughed about it. When I play with morons, I find it extremely frustrating and not the least bit fun or funny.

You continue to assert that our behavior comes from being a monk and "holding the lives of the entire party" in our hands. I maintain that this is false, because I do the same thing on any of my characters. It has nothing to do with being a monk, and everything to do with refusing to put up with rampant idiocy.

People who don't like my policy are more than welcome to find another group (if I'm leading) or kick me (if they're leading). I don't see anything wrong with people taking Mhenlo, and I don't see any reason why I should persuade people to take me instead. I am more than happy doing everything with heroes and henchmen, so I have no incentive to cater to people who would rather just screw around or do their own thing.

exactly.
i can hench this game as easily as anyone else, if im playing for a PuG, its usually because while organising my hench group i see someone post "GLF 1 more monk before we leave, please join" or whatever and i thinkg to myself "why the hell not." if people dont appreciate the fact that whenever i play i try to succeed, they can feel free to kick me.
i play for fun; but for me, doing the same mission 10 times over when you ahve other things to do, just because you're partied with baboons is not fun. some of the crap people do is funny, but even if it makes me laugh the moment they do it, as a general rule, its not fun when that stupidity causes you to fail.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

You are right, I spoke hastily. But I did not mean obviously retarded things like monks casting Meteor Shower. I meant people who, when they see a wammo using Mending, will ping that 300 times followed by no healing for that wammo. I meant people who, when a caster pulls an enemy group, shouts "STOP THAT OR I LEAVE!!!!" (and then actually leave). I mean people who will insult my friend for keeping the party alive. And these people happen to be mostly monks.

I still stand by this statement:

Having to sacrifice the life of one to save three others is not your failure.
Not healing a player who you can heal with no ill effect on your team is your failure, even if that player "should" do whatever he does in some other manner.

Ok you need to relax. It's just a game, and an easy one at that. Of course I won't like it when it really matters. If I get a party together with the explicit purpose of getting masters in Eternal Grove, I will be very annoyed at the losers who can't stay at their gate etc. But in the vast majority of cases you can have a group of people who make a whole lot of mistakes and yet come out winning, and if that happens... what have you lost? Maybe you broke a nail when you had to heal a caster who didn't kite

I use that handle for one reason: people can't spell it

i dont recall complaining about people's skillbars.
the ONLY time i will ask someone to call their skillbar is when we are looking for a specific build (well, there are some exceptions, if i get the gist that the persons a complete idiot while still teaming, i may ask at the behest of other group members).
if a warrior is running w/e echo, archane echo, mending and elemental resistance, i could not care less, so long as he suceeds.
and, for the record, do not chalk this off as an elitist monk attitude; the character i play BY FAR more than any other, is warrior. and i know what i'm doing as a warrior, so i like to think that if its possible for me not to be an idiot on wheels, then its possible for others as well.
i also regularly play necro, ranger, ele, mesmer and rit (recently also paragon). i know each class, i know their roles, and i try to do them as professionally and efficiently as possible, all the time. i will NEVER ruin a mission for someone who has not already done so for themselves. a few times, ive stuck with a party of total idiots because of 1-2 people who legitimatly tried to succeed, and often if we dont, ill meet with the few brain-wielding players back in town to reform with less people off the special-ed bus.
the reason i will refuse to heal, or otherwise put forth effort in the direction of someone who is quite obviously not giving a $hit is that if they are not going to put forth a modicum of effort to ensure the team doesnt go under, why should i put forth effort to ensure THEY dont go under?
and i dont like to wait untill mid-combat, 5 minutes in, fighting 3 groups of over-aggrod enemy foes with only 1/3rd my energybar full and 2 people down to cut off the infected part. i, for the good of the team, will realize that if this person perists they will bring everyone down, and then cut them loose from any assitance. its a premptive strike against idiocy, and if that person realizes in the next few minutes that they are going the way of the titanic unless they shape up, and they get their act together, then i will resume my normal method of play.
its as simple as that, extend me the courtesy of not playing like an idiot, and i'll do the same.
and if its me thats bringing the party down, i consider it their DUTY to tell me before we go under, so that i can get MY act together.
in PvE or PvP, if someone goes down, that didnt need to go down, i will off the bat apologize; and if im playing another class and my job isnt being done to the fullest possible extend, again, i accept responsibility.
if i call someone out, its because THEY did something wrong. Period. if i call myself out, its because I did something wrong. Period.
the first step to being able to improve ones abilities, is to forst realize where you are going wrong; whether you can recognize that for yourself, or need someone else to point it out, does not matter.

kosh · Dec 09, 2006, 08:12 AM // 08:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akhilleus

exactly.
i can hench this game as easily as anyone else, if im playing for a PuG, its usually because while organising my hench group i see someone post "GLF 1 more monk before we leave, please join" or whatever and i thinkg to myself "why the hell not." if people dont appreciate the fact that whenever i play i try to succeed, they can feel free to kick me.
i play for fun; but for me, doing the same mission 10 times over when you ahve other things to do, just because you're partied with baboons is not fun. some of the crap people do is funny, but even if it makes me laugh the moment they do it, as a general rule, its not fun when that stupidity causes you to fail.

.

now who said baboons cant play good?

Akhilleus · Dec 09, 2006, 10:16 PM // 22:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by kosh

now who said baboons cant play good?

haha...thats getting saved to my pictures ^-

SanchO987 · Dec 12, 2006, 09:18 AM // 09:18

Today, I was playing through Gate of Pain with my paragon and I came across a monk who used these skills. Heal party, Mending (applied on EVERYONE), Light of Deliverance(finally a decent skill), SMITE, Illusion of pain, Healing breeze and restore life. -_- It was a good thing we had two other monks and me(motivation) so we got masters with no deaths but he managed to get his margrid hero to attempt pulling enemies by standing there and using apply poison then shooting with a shortbow and not moving while another torment patrol happens to walk past....... that was some battle lol. Just shows the idiots that can play this game without smashing their computer to bits via idiocy.

ShaneOfMach · Dec 12, 2006, 02:59 PM // 14:59

what gets me the most aren't those who are new to the game, but those that DO NOT LISTEN at all to your advice.

jesh · Dec 12, 2006, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akhilleus

if a warrior is running w/e echo, archane echo, mending and elemental resistance, i could not care less, so long as he suceeds.

Wouldn't that need to be a Me/Mo?

Anyways.. I guess all these monks aren't elitist after all, they're just really bad at having fun.

Healing Skills · Dec 13, 2006, 01:15 AM // 01:15

I have been playing a monk for about 1 year or more and I have found that if any one starts cussing me for any deaths or such I siply tell the team if I get cussed 1 more time I am leaving 9 out of 10 times I have no problems with any of them for the rest of the mission.But I will say monking for mony is wrong I would never ask for it.And 1 more thing is it just me or do alot of monks tend not to heal the other monk.

Franco Power · Dec 13, 2006, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Well this happened to me in one of the NF missions the other day, (Im trying to get my assassin to the end so I can cap Shadow Prison).

I was forming a party and we were 7/8

It was the 4th time I was trying to do that mission but to be honest before that I had put no effort in it, so I decided to make my own party, I asked everyone to call their skill bars, but we are talking about monks now so.

First monk, very helpful , very friendly, she liked to play prot and was looking to cap ZB.

So she calls skill bar and it wasnt that bad I ve seen worst (PvE monks are so.... erm mending, healing breeze, healing touch, healing burst, no energy management, you get my point), So I with intention of helping I told her she should get shield of absorption which is a great prot skill and Divert hexes and restore condition aswel, very helpful she chose to get some skills for me and change her skill bar for me, which actually worked great.

then the other monk comes in, I also ask him to call his skill bar and he replies.

" Im a healer, and my skill bar is none of your business, etc etc (very aggressive)"

So I told him , "I make it my business if you are in my party /kick" xD.

Conclusion, Just got a hero and gave him the skill bar i wanted.

Note: you guys might be thinking, Who the hell are you to tell people skill bars? Well i ve gained over 2000 fame just MONKING, only I love monk, the thrill of having peoples lives in my hands is great xD. And also I wanted to make sure we were going to get things right because i want to progress through the game fast ( i hate pve).

But really no one needs to take pugs anymore or monks , Heroes are great and you can set them how ever you want to play or think its best, unfortunatly my heroes are all very low level as my sin came from Cantha otherwise I would have used them and not even bother with Pugs.

long post huh, just my 2 cents

Crom The Pale · Dec 13, 2006, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Ive played every class except Rit so I have a pretty good idea what its like to play each role in a party.

Monks while using more skills are not always the most important part of any team. Every party member playes a role in a balanced team and the loss of any can be critical. Knowing what all of your team mates skills are is essential to prevent bad skill combos or overlaping. Assuming that your going to be called noob if you don't have the right skills equiped is why many are refusing to share such info.

Saying that all Warriors do is press 'c' + space bar and use skill combo is as insulting as saying that all monks do is click name in party window hit orison repeat.

A really good Warrior does far more than most give them credit for. Its often the war that has to draw agro inorder to tank, if the ranger pulls for traps its a differnt story but most often the agro player takes the most damage and you really want that to be the war not the soft casters. After the agro most wars have the job of calling targets, that means cycling through all foes to find out who is most important, the Monk or the Mesmer? Its not always obvious. A really good war will also keep an eye on his allies to spot a monk or ele kiting from an attacker, then interciding with a body block or cripling attack or interupt.

It doesnt matter what your class is if somebody does something to kill the whole party your gonna be ticked off. It could be the tank over agros or the ele over exhausts himself or the monk doesnt bring any condition/hex removal( i have a freind that only plays monk and he addamently refuses to carry either, its the other monks job he told me!).

One of the biggest problems in this game today is that many are confusing newbs for noobs. Vetren players tend to expect other players to know exactly what to do in every situation and often forget that there are lots of new players out there. People need to take some time before a mission to discuse the stratagy in detail and each party members role in it.

I've been a guild leader since GW came out and ive spent a good deal of my 3000+ hours helping guild members work out skill sets that work or beating missions over and over again. Maybe this gives me a little more patience than others or maybe I just have more fun playing the game rather than massing up titles and elite items. But ive never had cause to insult somebody for make a mistake or using a bad build, this is just a game!

Lasty respect is earned and it tends to last only untill your very next minor mistake.

Shizuka Hayabuza · Dec 13, 2006, 04:03 PM // 16:03

Monks are the most important class in GW and I think there is alot of bullshit in this thread.

kthxbie

Effigy · Dec 13, 2006, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaneOfMach

what gets me the most aren't those who are new to the game, but those that DO NOT LISTEN at all to your advice.

This sums up my view nicely. I have nothing against new players; they can be a lot of fun. The problem is stubborn, ignorant players who won't entertain the notion that someone else might know something they don't.

Franco Power · Dec 13, 2006, 05:12 PM // 17:12

There is no most important class in GW.

"Location: Ecto town
Character: Illona Love N/Me/Mo, Kaede Twinblades A/E/W, Faith Devilme Mo/Me/A
Guild: [OoH] Order of Hyperion"

I assume you PvE, so Im not even going to explain how retarded your post was.

Shizuka Hayabuza · Dec 13, 2006, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Legendary Ultimatum

There is no most important class in GW.

"Location: Ecto town
Character: Illona Love N/Me/Mo, Kaede Twinblades A/E/W, Faith Devilme Mo/Me/A
Guild: [OoH] Order of Hyperion"

I assume you PvE, so Im not even going to explain how retarded your post was.

O rly Legendary? try play Pvp without Monks (except for ABs maybe) and see how well that goes, and for pve, ill rest my case cause its a know fact you bring mo with you. Unless ur a solo-farmer.

kthxbie