Curse

Rera · Nov 18, 2006, 01:33 AM // 01:33

yeah, yeah, you're right, sorry. I apologize for being intolerant of stupidity. It's okay to be stupid guys, I will still heal you, ok?

You hear that, monks? We gotta heal everyone no matter how stupid they are. It's part of our job. I know it's going to be frustrating and everything, but that's why we're monks. Gotta save everyone.

But wait, we're allowed to give up sometimes. Hmm, I'm not really sure when though, or who's right it is to determine that. Oh well.

mikkel · Nov 18, 2006, 01:42 AM // 01:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

yeah, yeah, you're right, sorry. I apologize for being intolerant of stupidity. It's okay to be stupid guys, I will still heal you, ok?

You hear that, monks? We gotta heal everyone no matter how stupid they are. It's part of our job. I know it's going to be frustrating and everything, but that's why we're monks. Gotta save everyone.

But wait, we're allowed to give up sometimes. Hmm, I'm not really sure when though, or who's right it is to determine that. Oh well.

Apparently there are a lot of things that you can't quite grasp. Seriously, you're just proving my point here. Ignoring what my post said isn't going to make you right, it's only going to make you look stupid.

If you're not good enough to monk a PUG, save us the trouble of having to do the mission again when you ragequit.

Rera · Nov 18, 2006, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Yeah, I'm stupid, sorry. But you're still going to heal me, right?

mikkel · Nov 18, 2006, 01:46 AM // 01:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

Yeah, I'm stupid, sorry. But you're still going to heal me, right?

Silly kids

Ensign · Nov 18, 2006, 06:04 AM // 06:04

The job of the Monk is the same as any other character, to successfully complete the mission. If the best way to accomplish that is to stop healing someone who is rocking your energy, you do it without reservations.

Peace,
-CxE

random.name · Nov 18, 2006, 07:13 AM // 07:13

Mikkel, not to bring you down from your obvious high, but you need to get a few facts straight...

Firstly, the difference between a ranger a ele is not just 10 AL. Rangers have this little thing called armor vs elements. They also a few skills that allow them to dodge attacks etc. Im sure you know that, and you are trying to make a different point that escapes all the rest of us?

Secondly, when you say that you dont have to regen energy between battles, and the rest of us must be doing something wrong, are you referring to the start of the various chapters? If that is the case, then yeah, if you are level 20 playing around in ascalon I agree that you dont need to regen energy. We, who play the endstage missions of the game do not have that luxury you see. We have to keep 7 other people alive, and well, I dont think I need to explain the maths to you...

Lastly I wish to state for the record that I doubt very much that you have played a monk later in the game. You sound too much like that irritating assassin/dervish we get in PUG's that cant seem to get it through his thick head that he is not a tank, and that if I dont have energy, I cant heal. He also fails to understand that I cant take the time to rez him during a battle, because other SKILLED people needs to be healed, and at the end of the day its just easier doing the mission without him.

So yeah, we are all in awe of your awesome skills, and we all wish we could be as leet as you!

moko · Nov 18, 2006, 11:29 AM // 11:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

The job of the Monk is the same as any other character, to successfully complete the mission. If the best way to accomplish that is to stop healing someone who is rocking your energy, you do it without reservations.

Peace,
-CxE

QFT

the thing with healing "idiots" is that;

a) if you keep them alive, theyll keep messing up; next time might be deadly for your whole group
b) your probably wasting all energy you got on one person, resulting in the others getting slaughtered

=> your going to let all die and FAIL the mission because you kept someone alive that brought the death for others.

mikkel, this has nothing to do with being arrogant; its for the "safety" of the group. its all nice if you want to keep those idiots alive; but its not gonna turn out well.

Quote:

We, who play the endstage missions of the game do not have that luxury you see. We have to keep 7 other people alive, and well, I dont think I need to explain the maths to you...

sorry but, ive played my monk through all campaigns; you dont need to wait for regen, you just run in the next group, that should give you enough time to regen if you need it.

mikkel · Nov 18, 2006, 12:01 PM // 12:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by random.name

Mikkel, not to bring you down from your obvious high, but you need to get a few facts straight...

Firstly, the difference between a ranger a ele is not just 10 AL. Rangers have this little thing called armor vs elements. They also a few skills that allow them to dodge attacks etc. Im sure you know that, and you are trying to make a different point that escapes all the rest of us?

Oh I am very well aware of this, but since you tout yourself as an "endgame professional", you should know that the vast majority of damage is chaos, shadow or physical in these parts. Another 10 or 20AL against a fifth of the damage dealt is insignificant to my point, which really does seem to escape you, amazingly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by random.name

Secondly, when you say that you dont have to regen energy between battles, and the rest of us must be doing something wrong, are you referring to the start of the various chapters? If that is the case, then yeah, if you are level 20 playing around in ascalon I agree that you dont need to regen energy. We, who play the endstage missions of the game do not have that luxury you see. We have to keep 7 other people alive, and well, I dont think I need to explain the maths to you...

Actually, random.name, I am only talking about end-game areas. I have done Raisu Palace, the Ring of Fire missions, tombs, ect. many more times than most, I'm sure, and starting a fight with 50+ energy, while a luxury, is -far- from a necessity if you're at all capable of playing your class. 30 energy is easily enough if you know how to manage it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by random.name

Lastly I wish to state for the record that I doubt very much that you have played a monk later in the game. You sound too much like that irritating assassin/dervish we get in PUG's that cant seem to get it through his thick head that he is not a tank, and that if I dont have energy, I cant heal. He also fails to understand that I cant take the time to rez him during a battle, because other SKILLED people needs to be healed, and at the end of the day its just easier doing the mission without him.

Actually, my PUG monk with no considerable farming to her name has 1.5mil experience, mostly from repeating endgame missions. I'm afraid that to me, you sound too much like that monk you always regret picking for your group, as you probably would have made it with a skilled player.

Quote:

Originally Posted by random.name

So yeah, we are all in awe of your awesome skills, and we all wish we could be as leet as you!

Oh please, I'm sure there are many competent monks here who wouldn't like you including their "opinions" unwarranted. =) I'm sure that if you fail to grasp what I'm saying, you're either not a very good monk, or misinterpretating what I'm writing. For your sake, I hope it's the latter. =)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

QFT

the thing with healing "idiots" is that;

a) if you keep them alive, theyll keep messing up; next time might be deadly for your whole group
b) your probably wasting all energy you got on one person, resulting in the others getting slaughtered

=> your going to let all die and FAIL the mission because you kept someone alive that brought the death for others.

Hold on here. Let's recap what I posted previously.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikkel

If people continually RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO up, as in a caster rushing straight into mobs, then let them tank until you're uncomfortable with your energy situation, which should let you heal for a whole lot longer than 10 seconds.

Clearly what you're saying is irrelevant, as you will neither let anyone die nor fail the mission if you heal them for as long as you're comfortable with your energy. This could be a limit of 40 energy for some, and 20 energy for others, and this is what makes the difference between a good and a bad monk, which it seems is what all of the above people responding to my posts fail to grasp.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

mikkel, this has nothing to do with being arrogant; its for the "safety" of the group. its all nice if you want to keep those idiots alive; but its not gonna turn out well.

The main point I have been trying to make here is that it is arrogant to make decisions in advance and pre-emptively state that if the players in a group don't suit the monk, he or she is not going to heal them. That is pure arrogance. I have nothing against monks asking for people to help them help themselves when it comes to healing, but outright denying to heal people for trivialities is undeniably arrogant.

All I'm advocating is keeping the idiots alive as long as it doesn't impair your ability to heal others, and that this should be possible in most cases if you're a decent monk. People here seem to get aggressive, though, if their abilities are questioned.

moko · Nov 18, 2006, 02:09 PM // 14:09

^to make it short; i didnt read the page before and clearly missed your main point then. i apologize - and i completely agree with you now.

mikkel · Nov 18, 2006, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

^to make it short; i didnt read the page before and clearly missed your main point then. i apologize - and i completely agree with you now.

No worries. I didn't word myself very well there, so apologies right back at you.

Rera · Nov 18, 2006, 05:43 PM // 17:43

OMG guys, why are you arguing with mikkel? He is obviously right. But it's okay, even if you keep arguing with him, he will probably still heal you. I think.

Amok Affinity · Nov 18, 2006, 08:45 PM // 20:45

my pve monk made it to the southern shiverpeak missions, i learned a good deal but parked her there... i liked monking and i'd love to get more experience in but really most players are such disrespectful assholes that i've given up on becoming a talented monk through pve practice. i heal sometimes on call for my alliance/friends when it's not for something terribly difficult...

maybe there'll be such a horrendous shortage of monks at some point that they'll be more widely respected? doubt it. now with heros... heh.

ubard · Nov 18, 2006, 10:08 PM // 22:08

from what i've found in pve is that MOST of the time the other players are very nice to me as a monk, back in prophecies if you didn't suck you were commended over and over again. The level of competant monks has since risen, and along with it the level at which sometimes monks are taken for granted. Never anything to trifle over. Just enjoy the game, and try to remember that the mesmer or ele or paragon is probably doing almost as much as you to keep the party healthy.

really, the way they treat you depends on their own skill.

if they are silly, and all run off in differant directions while you type: "ooh stop that.", they get damn mad.

if they all know what they are doing, they usually acknowledge you at the least

monking for money is just discraceful, i like to think that we monks are above that sort of thing

hehe.

i am sometimes sure that allowing one fool's dp too crawl into the negatives will benefit the party, but i'm never able to let even the lowliest sillyman die without cause. we all start somewhere.

P.S. POSTBOY! somebody said right at the beginning of this thread that silly monks spam breeze and heal party, while the awfulness of breeze cannot be disputed (and hopefully, won't be in this thread), HP is simply an amazing skill. just had to point that out

the bottom line is that monks, while they are unique in their abilitys as a class, are not special. to believe that you are special to the point that everybody should worship you to deserve one of your precious heals is just pure stupid. Everybody needs the mission, including you. Enjoy the game, and ignore the nuts that forget they are responsible for their own life, and that you are (i'm sure) doing your best.
cheers.

Ensign · Nov 18, 2006, 10:10 PM // 22:10

All I'm saying is that letting some dumb ele beat the energy out of you by tanking a bunch of mobs while casting his spells will cause group wipes. This isn't PvP where the other team will beat the energy out of you - this is PvE where if you're getting beat up, it's your fault.

The differences between eles and rangers isn't 10 AL, at least when talking about PUGs. I mean clearly you can build an ele with Kinetic + Armor of Earth and tank melee guys just fine. The difference, and this is obvious if you've spent a lot of time in PUGs, is that your common Ranger PUG doesn't do a ton of damage (his attributes are terrible and he has a level 15 pet that's going to die a lot) but he doesn't take a bunch either. He doesn't draw aggro, and if he does he almost certainly has Troll Unguent (which he will overuse, whatever) and probably has an evasion stance as well. Again not all Rangers are like this, but from grouping with Rangers a lot that is what they feel like. They're just kinda there, they don't kill a lot or die a lot and otherwise act as decent PUG filler.

Your typical Elementalist? Well, let's start with the obvious - there are a *ton* of them with 360-380 hit points and 60 armor. You can recognize them as a non-Monk because they like to control-click their energy bar. As a Monk you notice these guys very quickly because 1) They are glowing aggro beacons and 2) They get absolutely rocked as soon as they get said aggro. They are very unlikely to bring any sort of self-preservation as well. After all, they are *nukers*, they just nuke, whatever that means. What it means to me is that they're going to stand there getting punched in the face over and over again while casting long cast time spells until I am dry of energy, at which point I get yelled at for being a noob Monk.

The reason this is talked about is because the terrible Elementalist that rocks your Monks is only slightly less common than the rambo W/Mo that aggros way too much or runs off and dies in the middle of nowhere. The difference being, as a Monk, that when a Warrior is a dumbass and commits ritual suicide like that, everyone recognizes that he's a dumbass. When an Elementalist blows up a team, the bad Monks waste all their energy on him and then they wipe, and a bad PUG has no idea what happened. Often enough this leads to a rousing rendition of "Blame the Monk!", and that leads to rage on Monk forums.

Hence: if you are a squishy, and particularly if you are more squishy than usually, and you decide to tank massive amounts of damage, you are going to DIE, and I am going to laugh at you for it, because you are BAD. Hell if I'm going to let a party wipe because BAD PLAYERS devour all the team resources and make the players who will actually complete the mission lose.

Peace,
-CxE

gobla · Nov 18, 2006, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikkel

Hey, that's great. Alternatively you could just tell the group that you aren't skilled enough to keep people taking disproportional amounts of damage alive, and that you're too apathetic about your shortcomings to even try. If you need to recharge after every single battle in order to heal a group properly, you're doing something wrong.

If people continually RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO up, as in a caster rushing straight into mobs, then let them tank until you're uncomfortable with your energy situation, which should let you heal for a whole lot longer than 10 seconds. The difference between a ranger and a caster is 10AL. It is -not- impossible to keep them alive.

You're not a good monk if you can't make decisions about who, what and when to heal on the go. Adaptation is the most important thing for a monk to be able to do.

My good friend, like pointed out before rangers and eles have massive diffirences. Rangers have 100AL against elemental, wich is the most in the game and they have evasive stances. In your reasoning the diffirence between an assasin and a warrior is also just 10AL, though when I tried to be a main tank with my sin yesterday I horribly failed....

And I don't know what enemies you are fighting but on my version of guildwars elementalists and assasins get 50%-75% of their HP knocked off every 2 seconds when they try to tank. Let's do some maths. 50%-70% of their HP is let's say 300hp every 2 seconds. With 16 healing prayers and 10 divine favor Orison heals for 100, WoH for 200, WoC ( with condition ) for 150 and Dwayna's kiss for 150 as well. Now in order to keep my tanking buddy who actually can't tank alive I need to constantly spam those.

This means 2 things:

- 4 energy lost per second ( 1 regen, -5 spell casting )
- I cannot heal anyone else since every second of the fight I am casting a heal on the tanker.

Now let's say that I pre-casted something usefull like healing seed on the main tank or I used holy haste on myself so I can catch spikes. With my 59 energy this will mean that I have 50 energy when we make contact. Now at this moment I can keep the tanker who can't tank alive for a whole 12 seconds wich wastes my entire energy bar. And during those 12 seconds I am unable to heal anyone else since all my heals will be constantly recharging and i will be constantly casting them.

So instead of prolonging his life by 12 seconds, wich with the average high lvl battle lasting, say 30 seconds and for bosses 60 seconds is 2/5 of a normal battle and 1/5 of a boss battle. I prefer to make sure the rest of that 3/5 or 4/5 is also filled with healing. I am ofcourse perfectly fine with doing this for 3-4 seconds, but this already costs me 25% of my energy bar. If they don't run away to ditch agro after that they die. Very simple. They're fault, not mine. Not my lack of skill, their lack of skill.

Now you say I am a crap monk because I actually need to rest a bit between fights. So I assume that either:

- You are such an uber 1337 pro monk that people never ever, even if they pull 3 groups, die with you healing them
- You don't carry a resurrection skill at all or use something like resurrect, resurrection chant or restore life.

Now personally I prefer to use rebirth for it's teleportation effect. Now seeing as you obviously know so much about monking I assume that you know the uses of rebirth and that it drains all your energy. Simple things like this or for example long boss fights drain my energy totally. For this I want my team to just ask for a simple ready before they do the next big pull. Most of the time I immediatly give this ready, but sometimes as I described above I simply do not have the energy.

Lastly you say that I can not make decissions about who, what and when to heal. Last time I checked me saying that I won't heal tanking eles, necro's and sins or rushing idiots is pretty much taking a decission on who, what and when to heal. And ofcourse, with my pre-set statements I am unable to adapt to the battlefield situation. But please, give me a single battlefield situation in wich I will not loose all my energy healing a tanking ele, sin or necro loosing 50%-75% of his health every 2 secs for more then 15 seconds? Give me a single situation in wich standing in the middle of a high level mob to heal a rushing paladin who is 2 groups away will not get me in life threatening danger?

And I can hear you saying: Use prot spirit you noob!. Personally I find this skill to be an absolute waste in PvE PuGs. With a PuG monsters are constantly switching agro and are usually beating on atleast 3 diffirent persons. Using prot spirit I would have to waste 10 energy every time a mob switched agro only to find that it switched agro again 3 seconds later. Doing that will seriously get my energy drained. For PuGs you want healing, not damage prevention. In PuGs you are unable to know where the next blow will land because you simply do not know what your teammates will do. Healing allows you to directly respond to damage, Protection allows you to prevent damage if you know where it will be. Now for organised guild groups and all that kind of thing protection is great! You know the builds of your team, you know their playstyles so you know what to expect. In PuGs you simply don't. That ele may have packed defensive skills in wich case damage on him will never go above 60 to trigger spirit bond, but he may not as well in wich case he will need spirit bond, who knows in a PuG. That enemy ranger running closer is obviously going to attack a caster, but who? In an organised group you will know that for example your ele has 2 sup runes so will obviously be targeted by monster AI since he doesn't have a lot of HP. So prot spirit it is! In a PuG that ele might have all minor runes and max HP armor while the mesmer next to you has 2 sup runes. It may also be the other way around. What do you do? No place for protection in a PuG. The damage simply is too unpredictable.

But then again, maybe I just am a crappy monk. Maybe all of the above is just stupid bullshit and I'm missing something vital for my monking...... Please enlighten me if I do.

Master Fuhon · Nov 18, 2006, 11:01 PM // 23:01

I think hitting level 20 was the first point when the monk abuse started showing up for me. Just randomly, with people saying things before missions even started that demonstrated that they had no respect for you. The problem isn't newb players, but actually the segments of the population who have played through these types of games several times and don't grown as a player/person from day one. Unfortunate, but predictable, course of events leading up to a bunch of antagonizers posting in these forums. Incoming massive post because I don't like wasting my time going tit for tat with replies.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikkel

Hey, that's great. Alternatively you could just tell the group that you aren't skilled enough to keep people taking disproportional amounts of damage alive, and that you're too apathetic about your shortcomings to even try. If you need to recharge after every single battle in order to heal a group properly, you're doing something wrong.

Biggest thing about the monk/party relationship is the need for control on both sides. The group needs the monk to keep them alive, and the monk needs people not to take tons of damage and to kill stuff. Any type of person who has problems with submitting to another authority is going to be hurting the group. This relationship is assumed (by both sides, not just one) when you enter a group. I frequently see people try to intimidate monks with "there's 6 of us, 2 of you". It only takes about 2/6 good offensive players, but both defenders have to be solid. So the blame falls on the shoulders of a disrespected minority (2 guys taking care of 6 defenseless others) So if you point fingers at monks, they can justifiably point fingers back despite the fact that your voice will intrude more. Similar to the W/Mo earning the blame for non-monk failures.

Will people never figure out enough ways to work the AI so that damage is being limited? (I don't notice AI changes because it's all chaos to me when I'm healing.) Have we not all learned about pulling/watching patrols? How about those endless struggles where pathetic target selection leads to 5-10 minute struggles? And seriously, bosses can three shot kill enough players to the point that a player with high armor/prots is the guy who should be designated as a tank. Its not just +10 armor. Its +10 armor vs a chain of hits by multiple mobs, with critical hits contributing to spike damage. Less spike reaction time when you consider PvE characters are overloading on superior runes, and love being saved with <10 health on their bars so they can complain about it.

Monks need for players to understand how to play a class most effectively, and to make their jobs feasible. More groups fail missions because of the abilities that poor players are requiring their monks to have. If you want to tank with an ele and wield fiery dragon swords in the RoF, then you better know that you're the fool in that group. Or run with henches and spare us from the rest of this junk. Monk = other player, not your personal subordinate. Being able to pull mobs as a monk and lure them to henches is already a godsend.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

sorry but, ive played my monk through all campaigns; you dont need to wait for regen, you just run in the next group, that should give you enough time to regen if you need it.

You assume your group is competent enough to take down one group at a time. Hey, even two isn't that bad. But its 2-3 groups with a troublesome makeup (healers, aoe knockdown, heavy degen w/ interrupts, bosses, pop-up/patrol/adds coming up on caster backline) that absolutely screw over monks more than anything. This "rule" you've made up will only further justify the poor behavior of non-monks. I don't care for these types of generalizations if I haven't already made that clear.

Edit: Last 3 posts beat me to it, pretty much.

moko · Nov 19, 2006, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master Fuhon

You assume your group is competent enough to take down one group at a time. Hey, even two isn't that bad. But its 2-3 groups with a troublesome makeup (healers, aoe knockdown, heavy degen w/ interrupts, bosses, pop-up/patrol/adds coming up on caster backline) that absolutely screw over monks more than anything. This "rule" you've made up will only further justify the poor behavior of non-monks. I don't care for these types of generalizations if I haven't already made that clear.

learn patrols, learn how to pull -> wont happen

as i said, i never had the problem, so people that have those problems are obviously doing something wrong.

mikkel · Nov 19, 2006, 01:03 AM // 01:03

I'm not going to quote all of this nonsense, because most of it is completely irrelevant to what I've been saying.

There is no sense in giving hopelessly inflated statistics in order to prove a point that doesn't exist. There is no point in telling me that my views are flawed because healing idiots will wipe your team. I already stated quite clearly that I'm suggesting that people heal idiots for as long as they are -comfortable-, instead of determining in advance who gets healed and who doesn't, as that is incredibly arrogant, and the topic of the thread deals in most part about monk attitudes.

There is no sense in stating the obvious as in you need recharge after using Rebirth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikkel

If you need to recharge after every single battle in order to heal a group properly, you're doing something wrong.

If you're defending this by condescendingly explaining how Rebirth works, as if it's an obvious and rapidly recurring source of energy depletion, I'm going to assume that you're saying that you have to Rebirth party members after every fight, and then I'm still going to be of the opinion that you must be doing something wrong, if this is the case.

There is no need to hear voices. I haven't included Protective Spirit in any regularly used PvE build ever. If you really want to make a point, base it on what you actually know. It's easy to make up situations where your opinions are superior. It's harder to actually find these situations.

My point is still that if you state before or at the start of a mission or quest exactly who you're going to heal and when you're going to heal them, you're arrogantly commandeering a party and expecting 7 other people to do exactly what you want. Nothing is determined in advance, and the dynamic nature of the game means that you have every chance to actually use your head in battle and help people instead of commanding them.

Rera · Nov 19, 2006, 01:30 AM // 01:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikkel

I haven't included Protective Spirit in any regularly used PvE build ever.

I LOL'd.

Monks, apparently it's incredibly arrogant to expect basic competence from your team.

mikkel · Nov 19, 2006, 01:54 AM // 01:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

I LOL'd.

Monks, apparently it's incredibly arrogant to expect basic competence from your team.

Rera, could you please cut the noise? It's evident that you have nothing to add to the thread, and that you are in fact not even reading my posts. If you have nothing better to do than try to save face by snide comments that in full context really just make you look inept, please save people the trouble of having to scroll past your posts.