Curse

Effigy · Nov 14, 2006, 08:20 PM // 20:20

My point is, Inspired Hex is saving you 5 energy every 20 seconds, just as SoD is saving you 5 energy (the cost of a basic heal) every 4 seconds if you choose to use it. The only thing that made Inspired Hex better was the fact that it actually gave you energy before the nerf, so it was more than just a hex removal.

Anyway, I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

XvArchonvX · Nov 14, 2006, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effigy

Anyway, I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

Agreed.

maienGerl · Nov 15, 2006, 04:51 AM // 04:51

Not entirely sure at what you have your Inspiration at, but I have 10 Inspiration as usually, and ihex gives 8 energy, -5, makes still a +3 energy every 21 seconds for a hex - theoretically..

Holy Veil on the other hand you lose energy, sure, you can cast it more frequently, but imo most important is that you remove the critical hexes on yourself, than check who gets what hex and when (Like people ever call them out.. ) - and about pre-casting it on warriors.. about every third hex you get from a mesmer, and they shatter enchants, so it'd be removed before you can remove a hex.. Nyu..

Imo the best energy management (in my eyes at least) is Power Drain (And E-Drain on a Prot/Boon monk)

dgb · Nov 15, 2006, 05:42 AM // 05:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

I have to disagree with you there 100%. Providing the ele skills you take are spammable AoR is fantastic. My brother, WHO DOES PLAY MONK...has commented how he rarely needs to heal me. Also, I'm not sure I like your suggestion for an ele build. Gale + Blinding Flash + Wards. So that's 13 in Energy Storage, 16 in Air and...how much in Earth? And frankly, who cares if I'm over healing myself...at least my health isn't going down and I am one caster the monks don't need to keep a constant eye on. Gale causes exhaustion. Not good. Blinding flash is ok but only works on one foe...so basically you spend 15 energy blinding one foe...wait until it recharges, spend another 15 energy blinding another foe....again..again... Waste of time. I only bring blinding flash if I know there will be fierce melee monsters who can inflict real pain... such as bosses. I spike. It's what I do. Thus I bring powerful air skills and spam the hell outta them and get a lot of health back off AoR.

Now this is not to say I don't take your views on board...from time to time I like to go earth. When I go earth I DO take wards and knockdowns...because that's what earth does...it's defensive. I don't take AoR with earth because it's not spammable enough to give me a good enough heal. So it's all completely dependent on the magic you run with. Earth lends itself to what you want...Air (my usual choice) does not. Sure gale knocks down but is far too spammable for it's own good, does not to any damage AND causes exhaustion...and ONLY works on one foe...unlick Dragon's Stomp. Sure, it also causes exhaustion...but it also deals damage and knocks down multiple foes. It isn't spammable enough to cause mass exhaustion.

Ok, maybe I'm missing something.

AoR provides healing when you cast. That is to get a return out of it, you have to cast. To get anything decent out of it, you really have to spam cast.

If you are taking damage, you shouldn't be spamming, you should be dealing with what's causing it, the usual method is kiting. If you're taking extremely heavy damage you should be protted and kiting to mitigate the damage. You need healing, but spamming spells to get any mileage out of AoR means you're going to take even more damage.

If you aren't taking damage, you're probably spamming and getting plenty of numbers off AoR, but who cares, you're not taking damage.

It's a skill that gives healing when you don't need it and gives you nothing when you do.

The only time when it really shines is when you're fighting a mob which has a heavy degen component, which the AI is very good at getting onto everyone. But in that case you're better off using heal party. You do have heal party don't you?

My skills listed are all alternatives that work at splash attribute levels, that provide far more benefits to monks than AoR ever will.

Flash will cut out more damage than AoR will ever put out in healing.
Wards will do the same.
Gale exists to be spammed when necessary. It's a fantastic multi-situational skill that can be used either offensively or defensively. It's an interupt, warrior control and monk shutdown all in one. Yes it requires intelligent use but I'm assuming that you can do that. If you exhaust yourself down to eight energy don't blame the skill for it, blame yourself for mashing keys until you hit that point.

Cebe · Nov 15, 2006, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by dgb

Ok, maybe I'm missing something.

AoR provides healing when you cast. That is to get a return out of it, you have to cast. To get anything decent out of it, you really have to spam cast.

If you are taking damage, you shouldn't be spamming, you should be dealing with what's causing it, the usual method is kiting. If you're taking extremely heavy damage you should be protted and kiting to mitigate the damage. You need healing, but spamming spells to get any mileage out of AoR means you're going to take even more damage.

If you aren't taking damage, you're probably spamming and getting plenty of numbers off AoR, but who cares, you're not taking damage.

It's a skill that gives healing when you don't need it and gives you nothing when you do.

The only time when it really shines is when you're fighting a mob which has a heavy degen component, which the AI is very good at getting onto everyone. But in that case you're better off using heal party. You do have heal party don't you?

My skills listed are all alternatives that work at splash attribute levels, that provide far more benefits to monks than AoR ever will.

Flash will cut out more damage than AoR will ever put out in healing.
Wards will do the same.
Gale exists to be spammed when necessary. It's a fantastic multi-situational skill that can be used either offensively or defensively. It's an interupt, warrior control and monk shutdown all in one. Yes it requires intelligent use but I'm assuming that you can do that. If you exhaust yourself down to eight energy don't blame the skill for it, blame yourself for mashing keys until you hit that point.

You've still not persuaded me to take AoR off my air build skillbar.

Ok, so you say the usual method of dealing with something that's causing you damage is Kiting...and you say that to get enough health out of it I really have to spam cast.

So the usual method is kiting. My usual method is pummel the crap outta the thing that's killing me. This keeps me very well healed AND deals with the problem head on. If you don't believe me then fine but I can, unless I have an entire mob on me...finish the enemy before he finishes me. And yes, I spam cast...that's what air magic allows me to do. I'm not stupid...I know my limitations...if I have 5 enemies on me OF COURSE i'm going to leg it.

LOL @ spamming Gale! If you want an interrupt you take a mesmer...mesmers have skills which:
1. Interrupt.
2. Interrupt without causing exhaustion
3. Interrupt with a 1/4 second casting time

It seems to me that you have no idea...at all...I have shed loads of energy all the time...and now I don't even take dual attunements thanks to Glyph of Lesser Energy. If you think I could somehow "Manage" the, frankly, crippling amount of exhaustion Gale would give me if I spammed it as you describe then *shakes head*....all I can say is "oh dear".

Rera · Nov 15, 2006, 01:51 PM // 13:51

The argument can be settled by running numbers, otherwise this is just Theory Wars. Go grab a Blade of Corruption or something and have him auto-attack you while you either a) kite (with wards or blinding flash) or b) stand in place and spam (with AoR), until you kill him.

My personal prediction is that Kiting > AoR.

In the case of ranged attacks, Kiting > AoR definitely, simply because kiting reduces damage to 0.

In the case of most direct damage spells, AoR > Kiting simply because you can't kite spell damage (well, unless you just flat-out run away from the caster).

Cebe · Nov 15, 2006, 02:16 PM // 14:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

The argument can be settled by running numbers, otherwise this is just Theory Wars. Go grab a Blade of Corruption or something and have him auto-attack you while you either a) kite (with wards or blinding flash) or b) stand in place and spam (with AoR), until you kill him.

My personal prediction is that Kiting > AoR.

In the case of ranged attacks, Kiting > AoR definitely, simply because kiting reduces damage to 0.

In the case of most direct damage spells, AoR > Kiting simply because you can't kite spell damage (well, unless you just flat-out run away from the caster).

That all seems highly unfair.

I really don't know if I can be bothered to argue my point but oh well... You don't get the situation where it's 1 Ele with AoR vs 1 blade of corruption...there are other influences... Also I'm not saying AoR is a replacement for a monk... All I'm saying is AoR has saved my hide on several occaisons and instead of running away from a group I've stood there and finished the guy off while the rest of the team ignored the fact that some wammo had decided I was going to die.

When I went to map that rear area in Dunes of Dispair towards my Tyrian GMC title...everyone else left after they'd helped me get there without triggering the timer. I stuck on dual attunements and AoR and took out all the horrible little Jade Scarbs who popped up as I wandered around...I could not have done that without AoR. And yes, Blade of Corruption could OWN Scarabs 1v1...that's beside the point entirely... I'm not stupid, if I know I'm going to be overwhelmed I will run away because what's the point in needlessly dying? But I know my limitations and if I know I can take something out...why the hell not?

As for the whole Gale thing earlier I actually thought that was a joke the first time I read it.

Edit: Just to point out...I'm not having a go at anyone...I'm trying to have a reasonably constructive debate... I don't care if people don't like AoR for one reason or another...I'm just making my case in the most lighthearted way possible. The last thing I want is for this to turn into a major argument. Just felt I should add this in...I got a rather nasty PM recently from someone who doesn't agree and there is just no call for that sort of cruel behaviour. Anyways, I'm ending this here.

moko · Nov 15, 2006, 02:42 PM // 14:42

last i looked this thread was about monks, WHY THE HELL ARE PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT ELES WITH AOR NOW? :|

and Rera wasnt putting AoR down, he was just saying that, when it comes to surviving, kiting will PREVENT more damage than AoR could heal. you gave an example on ebing on your own when you had to deal damage; you obviously have to deal damage so you cant kite properly, thus you are in a need of AoR. you just missed his point.

tho, theres no real point in arguing with scarabs and blades of corruption; if you take AoR in PVE, your obviously doing something wrong as ele; learn to stay back and dont try to tank - you wont need the heal.

in PVP, depending on your build, you will be the target quickly, and for example, your a blinding bot, you just cant kite all day long, forgetting your supposed to blind melee - thats when your in need of AoR for helping your monk (if theres one) out.

now back to monk topic?

oh btw,

Quote:

LOL @ spamming Gale! If you want an interrupt you take a mesmer...mesmers have skills which:
1. Interrupt.
2. Interrupt without causing exhaustion
3. Interrupt with a 1/4 second casting time

FAILURE right there. if you use Gale to INTERRUPT, your really doing something wrong. Gale is used to shutdown monks for a second so you can deal damage without them countering it. ive had eles keep spamming Gale and Shock on me before, i was nearly constantly down while they whiped my team; sure, they spammed themselves with exhaustion, but they won anyhoo.

pah01 · Nov 15, 2006, 03:06 PM // 15:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mokone

FAILURE right there. if you use Gale to INTERRUPT, your really doing something wrong. Gale is used to shutdown monks for a second so you can deal damage without them countering it. ive had eles keep spamming Gale and Shock on me before, i was nearly constantly down while they whiped my team; sure, they spammed themselves with exhaustion, but they won anyhoo.

Gale is a good interrupt for key 2 sec plus cast time spells like res and aegis/HP.

Otherwise it is probably the best shutdown skill in the game.

Joe

Rera · Nov 15, 2006, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celestial Beaver

So the usual method is kiting. My usual method is pummel the crap outta the thing that's killing me. This keeps me very well healed AND deals with the problem head on. If you don't believe me then fine but I can, unless I have an entire mob on me...finish the enemy before he finishes me.

My post was in reply to this passage specifically (emphasis added by me). I personally am skeptical that spamming skills with AoR is a superior alternative to kiting the damage. But again, without running the numbers I can't be sure. I suggested the Blade of Corruption setup because I believe it's a fairly common situation to have one or two melee attackers on an elementalist. I'm not sure what outside influences you are considering that would have a significant impact on the results of this sort of isolated test.

As a side note, I'm surprised you're actually being PM'd about this ... it's hardly an intense or emotional argument.

But Mokone is right, we're pretty OT at this point.

Katari · Nov 15, 2006, 09:22 PM // 21:22

To continue with the off-topic discussion of AoR...

I only ever use AoR as a cover enchant, since it's fast casting, with a quick recharge and long duration. I can't really think of a better spell to cover atunements with. Using AoE of course isn't an excuse not to kite, saying anything like that is just silly. Ele builds that dosn't use atunements (Prodigy... and do Second Wind/Ether Prism builds use Atunements) or Ele builds that aren't as dependent on them, have no good reason to use AoE.

Eles who use atunements typicaly run into energy problems if those atunements are striped. Eles with energy problems are generaly much less prodictive, therefore a cover enhant is a good idea. For a straight fire ele (Searing Flames + PvE?) what would work better? If there is something better, I'd really like to know.

I haven't noticed much of a difference between monks now, and monks a few moths ago, with the exception of a few guys still using Boon/Prot in PvE despite all the recent nerfs.

Breeze spaming monks are still as popular as ever before.

dgb · Nov 16, 2006, 05:38 AM // 05:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

As a side note, I'm surprised you're actually being PM'd about this ... it's hardly an intense or emotional argument.

It was me, I've apolgised for it and it was uncalled for - a couple of factors came together to make me feel particularly spiteful at the time and it showed in the PM, not an excuse just a statement. As I say, I've apologised and that's all I can do - I'm bowing out of the discussion though.

Effigy · Nov 16, 2006, 06:44 PM // 18:44

Boon prots did get a few nerfs, but they are still viable.

Ensign · Nov 16, 2006, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Aura of Restoration works fine to keep you topped off provided you have a couple hundred armor from the earth line. If you're not running those you shouldn't even think about tanking hits to the face. It's a cover enchantment that might top you off a bit otherwise, but not anything very good.

I have no idea what this has to do with Monks either.

Peace,
-CxE

Loki Seiguro · Nov 16, 2006, 08:09 PM // 20:09

my monk is full heal and for energy mangement he uses mantra of recall was it?..as i dont see how people use chanel8ing unless they are close enough to piss on the foe's boots.

i don't think anyone doesnt like monks anymore unless they dont do their job correctly

Effigy · Nov 17, 2006, 01:08 PM // 13:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Loki Seiguro

i don't think anyone doesnt like monks anymore unless they dont do their job correctly

A triple negative?

Channeling is a great spell but it's better suited to PvP than PvE. In PvE, you can draw aggro by being close to mobs, although it doesn't always happen if they are already bashing on something else. In PvP, you're likely to draw "aggro" no matter where you are, so you can count on at least a couple enemies being in the area.

mikkel · Nov 17, 2006, 06:14 PM // 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by gobla

I usually tell my PuGs at the beginning a few simple rules:
- You're not a ranger or warrior and you pull? I let you die
- You're not a warrior and taking major damage for more then 10 secs? I let you die
- You're rushing ahead of the group? I let you die
- You don't wait for my energy after a battle? I let you die

Hey, that's great. Alternatively you could just tell the group that you aren't skilled enough to keep people taking disproportional amounts of damage alive, and that you're too apathetic about your shortcomings to even try. If you need to recharge after every single battle in order to heal a group properly, you're doing something wrong.

If people continually RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO up, as in a caster rushing straight into mobs, then let them tank until you're uncomfortable with your energy situation, which should let you heal for a whole lot longer than 10 seconds. The difference between a ranger and a caster is 10AL. It is -not- impossible to keep them alive.

You're not a good monk if you can't make decisions about who, what and when to heal on the go. Adaptation is the most important thing for a monk to be able to do.

Rera · Nov 17, 2006, 08:14 PM // 20:14

You're missing the difference between ability and desire. Good monks can keep morons alive, but most of them don't want to.

How about this. You and I can make a group for Realm of Torment. I'll be the warrior. The moment we enter an area, I will run around and aggro everything I can see. I will then Frenzy+Healsig, making sure that there are plenty of Mesmers around to shatter off any prot spirit you put on me. Since you're supposedly a competent monk, I shouldn't die, so once my health gets low, I will run back to you and the rest of the casters, dragging the entire enemy mob to you. After I die, I will lie on the ground and spam team chat with "RES ME" for 5 minutes, and then ragequit.

A good monk is not an excuse to be a moron. Play competently, or die.

primitiveworker · Nov 17, 2006, 08:50 PM // 20:50

There is a cognitive dissonance in the minds of players when they see a Monk behaving selfishly because they have a mistaken preconception that anyone who would want to play a Monk, the most functionally supportive and self-less profession, must obviously be very supportive and self-less person.

This is obviously not the case, and it turns out some players are even drawn to play the Monk because of the fact that they are so personally opposed to the profession's role, and take advantage of the expectations of teammates.

"Oh, you need me, don't you?"

I would guess that most Monks are actually nice players who enjoy the supportive role of the profession. But the ones who are generally not nice are the ones people will remember.

It's kind of like how you expect an Assassin to die immediately, and the ones who survive the whole mission are the ones you remember.

mikkel · Nov 18, 2006, 01:26 AM // 01:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

You're missing the difference between ability and desire. Good monks can keep morons alive, but most of them don't want to.

How about this. You and I can make a group for Realm of Torment. I'll be the warrior. The moment we enter an area, I will run around and aggro everything I can see. I will then Frenzy+Healsig, making sure that there are plenty of Mesmers around to shatter off any prot spirit you put on me. Since you're supposedly a competent monk, I shouldn't die, so once my health gets low, I will run back to you and the rest of the casters, dragging the entire enemy mob to you. After I die, I will lie on the ground and spam team chat with "RES ME" for 5 minutes, and then ragequit.

A good monk is not an excuse to be a moron. Play competently, or die.

No, I'm not missing anything, and posting extremes like that in order to push a point that isn't even relevant to what I'm saying isn't going to make you right. Desire is -required- in order to be a good monk. If you're going to be an arrogant prick and not heal people just because their actions don't suit you perfectly, they have every right to bitch at you. You invite monks because you expect them to want to keep you alive to the best of their abilities. Finding out that you have a monk who couldn't care less about the group if it doesn't play exactly according to his or her mind is immensely annoying and happens entirely too often.

Usually these selective "monks" are horrible at their profession in the first place, and use other people's mistakes as an excuse to hide their inability to heal with what should be considered expectable PUG behaviour. Not all players are hardcore professionals, and there's no need to be a prick because people can't play how you want them to play.

I've been at the point where I refused to heal people myself only once, and that was an elementalist who'd aggro two or three groups ahead of everyone else at Abaddon's Mouth without being infused. There are situations where you're allowed to give up, but if monks stop healing people because their inexperience cause them to aggro a mob or two more than the monk would have liked, that's just plain stupid.