Curse

twicky_kid · Dec 18, 2006, 03:59 AM // 03:59

Depends on the format: pvp or pve.

In pvp if you are using a non-attack elite then you go sword.

If you are going to use an attack elite you will go hammer or axe.

Axe for spiking. Hammer for pressure.

In PvE IT DOESN'T MATTER!!!!

I took 15 in sword with all axe skills and still completed the mission.

LightningHell · Dec 18, 2006, 04:24 AM // 04:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

Depends on the format: pvp or pve.

In pvp if you are using a non-attack elite then you go sword.

If you are going to use an attack elite you will go hammer or axe.

Axe for spiking. Hammer for pressure.

In PvE IT DOESN'T MATTER!!!!

I took 15 in sword with all axe skills and still completed the mission.

That actually happend to WM Jang (or another WM warrior). He got Shock Axe, I think, and put points in Swordsmanship. We saw him Shocking everyone.

Related to the topic...

Why are Mesmer DW compared to Warrior DW?

Mesmer needs to expend 2~4 skillslots.
Mesmer has a much slower spike.
Mesmer has a much longer recharge.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 18, 2006, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Mesmers also have to rely on energy to apply deep wound, warriors just have to hit the button when it lights up.

Also, Hammer is more spike-y than axe is.

Nexus Icon · Dec 18, 2006, 08:05 AM // 08:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Mesmer needs to expend 2~4 skillslots.

And a warrior only needs one slot for an actual spike?
Last I heard it was one skill to apply the deep wound, then one high damage skill to apply the spike...

Quote:

Mesmer has a much slower spike.

As has been pointed out earlier, if you use Shatter Delusions on Phantom Pain, the SD damage comes in after the deep wound, resulting in a spike and actually making the spike itself faster than a warrior spike.

Quote:

Mesmer has a much longer recharge.

If you want to play solely as a deep wound spiker, you could take 2 means of applying a spike, and one of those spike combos (Phantom Pain + Shatter Delusions) would be ready again in 15 seconds anyway. That means that for at least 3 spikes, you'd be applying one every 8-9 seconds or so (7.5 +casting time).
Not much point if the deep wound hasn't been removed in the meantime.
Most deep wounds last for longer than 15 seconds...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

Mesmers also have to rely on energy to apply deep wound...

So? Mesmers generally have more than twice as much energy as a warrior in the first place; and Newsflash! They also have great ways of quickly recuperating that energy.
Talk about yer non-issues...

Thom Bangalter · Dec 18, 2006, 08:14 AM // 08:14

/sigh.

Unless running a caster spike, I'm sure as hell not taking a mesmer for a deep wound. That's retarded.

Nexus Icon · Dec 18, 2006, 08:15 AM // 08:15

So you can't argue my point, so you resort to name-calling?
GG Thom...

Thom Bangalter · Dec 18, 2006, 08:21 AM // 08:21

It's so obvious, I didn't feel the need to elaborate.

PP+shatter every 15 seconds for 15 energy, or eviscerate+executioner's OR sever+gash, or any kd+crushing, or dismember+anything else, for free. Not to mention the armor and DPS abilities warriors have. There's nothing to argue. I'll repeat: unless running a caster spike, you take a warrior for deep wound abilities, not a mesmer.

Nexus Icon · Dec 18, 2006, 09:00 AM // 09:00

And I'LL repeat, energy + mes= not a problem.
A warrior's spike is not what I'd call free by any means; you still have to invest time to build the spike.
In most cases, Frenzy too, which comparitively, gets rid of a quarter of a standard warrior's energy bar. Then if someone's running a hammer spiker, whoops, there goes another 5 energy.
Without Glad's, that's half your energy gone. With Glad's, a third.
And most warriors don't carry a means of quickly recovering energy.
If you come back and say "But that's not an issue", then realise that you're saying the same thing about warrior that I'm saying about mesmer.

Oh, and a mesmer doesn't magically lose the ability to cast other spells whilst waiting for Phantom Pain to cool down. They could (and should) be doing other cool stuff whilst waiting to initiate another spike. Like maybe draining the target's enrgy so they replenish their own...?

A mesmer applying a deep wound is a very viable alternative to a warrior.
I'm just trying to get people to realise that if they let someone else handle the deep wound, they could devote more time to unconditional damage or interrupts.

And a warrior should be more than just "Frenzy > Deep Wound > Spike!". It's just sad when people limit themselves so much and by their actions on this forum, imply that that's what everybody else should be doing too.
Think more about other classes and how you can interact with them to make everything smoother for the whole team.
So it gets complicated and requires a high level of coordination...
So what?
Isn't that what striving to be the best is all about?

Eilsys · Dec 18, 2006, 09:17 AM // 09:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

And a warrior only needs one slot for an actual spike?
Last I heard it was one skill to apply the deep wound, then one high damage skill to apply the spike...

The skill is called Eviscerate. Maybe you've seen it in PvP before; it's fairly popular.

Why would you take a Mesmer for Deep Wound? If I take a Mesmer, I don't want half his bar devoted to doing what a Warrior can do anyway. There's way better things a Mesmer can do than that.

For PvE, Triple Chop is my favorite elite. Builds up adrenaline nicely, and does something like +38 damage to everything at 14 Axe.

Sword is good for utility; Sever/Gash/Final and the rest of your bar can be whatever stances and crap you want.

Nexus Icon · Dec 18, 2006, 09:23 AM // 09:23

Oh for the love of Pete, please read the rest of the thread before commenting.
Me and Carth went over this in detail and discovered some very interesting things about deep wound, one of which was that the spike on warrior builds doesn't happen until the next attack after the deep wound. That means that Eviscerate itself does not constitute a spike, that's what Executioner's Strike is for.

And 2 skills does not constitute half a skill bar...

Eilsys · Dec 18, 2006, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Sorry, thought you had mentioned four skills when you only said three. My bad.

I did read the rest of the thread; you were arguing that Mesmers are better for Deep Wound since they can cause it in an AOE, and faster. And I was agreeing with Thom, Mesmers are far more valuable as shutdown.

Rangers are better at spreading bleeding (Melandru's), but that doesn't mean Sever is bad on a W's bar. Sure, maybe in the off-chance that the OP PUGs with a Mesmer with Phantom Pain/Shatter/Epidemic he'll be outperformed, but overall that doesn't make Deep Wound a bad choice for a Warrior's bar.

Nexus Icon · Dec 18, 2006, 10:45 AM // 10:45

If we're going right back to what the OP said, I'd say ignore deep wounds for PvE. Standard mobs die too quickly for it to be worthwhile, and level 24+ mobs or bosses have far more than 500 health, making deep wound subject to the law of diminishing returns.
Stick with DPS.

Hockster · Dec 18, 2006, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Mending and Healing Breeze? This is why wamo's never get into groups. 1 pip of energy regen and you bring a 10 energy spell. Can you even kill anything in under 30 minutes with that build?

LightningHell · Dec 18, 2006, 02:57 PM // 14:57

Well, at least we agree on the grounds that we don't care about deep wound in PvE.

Jetdoc · Dec 18, 2006, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Well, at least we agree on the grounds that we don't care about deep wound in PvE.

Unless you're a solo (without henchmen) fiend like me or are trying to get Master's completion, where every second counts...

Thom Bangalter · Dec 18, 2006, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

And I'LL repeat, energy + mes= not a problem.
A warrior's spike is not what I'd call free by any means; you still have to invest time to build the spike.
In most cases, Frenzy too, which comparitively, gets rid of a quarter of a standard warrior's energy bar. Then if someone's running a hammer spiker, whoops, there goes another 5 energy.
Without Glad's, that's half your energy gone. With Glad's, a third.
And most warriors don't carry a means of quickly recovering energy.
If you come back and say "But that's not an issue", then realise that you're saying the same thing about warrior that I'm saying about mesmer.

Oh, and a mesmer doesn't magically lose the ability to cast other spells whilst waiting for Phantom Pain to cool down. They could (and should) be doing other cool stuff whilst waiting to initiate another spike. Like maybe draining the target's enrgy so they replenish their own...?

A mesmer applying a deep wound is a very viable alternative to a warrior.
I'm just trying to get people to realise that if they let someone else handle the deep wound, they could devote more time to unconditional damage or interrupts.

And a warrior should be more than just "Frenzy > Deep Wound > Spike!". It's just sad when people limit themselves so much and by their actions on this forum, imply that that's what everybody else should be doing too.
Think more about other classes and how you can interact with them to make everything smoother for the whole team.
So it gets complicated and requires a high level of coordination...
So what?
Isn't that what striving to be the best is all about?

/sigh, again. I honestly can't believe this is open to debate. Warriors do deep wound better. I'm not saying mesmers can't do it, nor am I implying that warriors should only be doing frenzy-deep wound-spike, because warrior bars should be flexible in response to a situation, which is why you'll see anti-kite skills such as bull's strike and shock, interrupts such as distracting blow and other disruption through knockdowns, or self condition removal like plague touch.

Also, a zealous weapon while under an IAS quickly replenishes your energy, alongside their two pips of regen.

You're not utilizing your mesmer proplery by running pp+shatter+epidemic. It's a clunky expensive combination that ties up too much of a mesmers bar (3 skils) and pretty requires the other 4 skills be energy management to pull it off. If I would want to apply a deep wound like that, I'd take a paragon with go for the eyes+find their weakness.

I'm glad you finally figured out how a spike work, gg.

PP+shatter is useful in caster spike because it takes away a lot of the target's health. I've farmed quite a few champ points revolving around the skills so I'm not saying their bad. But If you're not running a caster spike, you need a warrior applying the deep wound, because it's less prone to be interrupted, diversioned, or simply being outpressured because by the time you get aoe deep wound set up, there's a good chance your mesmers will be dead.

Although, I should note that the best class at applying deep wound are thumpers, those things are maniacs, they just have to wait for recharge on crushing.

twicky_kid · Dec 18, 2006, 05:33 PM // 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Well, at least we agree on the grounds that we don't care about deep wound in PvE.

Deep wound is very valuable. Even dismember deals more dmg than any other non-elite attack skill

Name one skill that says deals +100 dmg for xx seconds target for receives 20% lower healing.

I solo kill many monsters with just dismember>whirling axe>crit chop>whirling.

Deep wound is the entire reason you take a war. If you aren't using then why are you there besides being a tank.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 18, 2006, 06:00 PM // 18:00

I agree. Warriors without deep wounds are gimped.

Crom The Pale · Dec 18, 2006, 06:02 PM // 18:02

This thread has driffted a wee bit off topic, but hey go with the flow I guess....

For mesmers to apply deep wound, yes they can do it fast and the energy cost is nothing to them, but if your using a war to spike then you have to wait till he has his adren attacks charged, by which time he could apply it anyway...
Hence the comment that using a mesmer for a deep wound is for caster spikes, not in combo with a war spike. Yes it can be done but its not the most efficient way to do it.

As for a war using deep wound at all, its for spikes and not for much else. If your just applying pressure with your war then deep wound is to easy a condition to remove, and its removal reverses the damage it causes. The only reason a pressure war would use deep wound is to cover bleeding or cripple or weakness.

On topic...

Axe is for spiking or high damage single hits, all though it can provide nice dps its not as reliable as sword dps.

Sword is best for providing fast conditions and dps, but can deliver high damage spikes as long as conditions meet the req. ie Final Thrust.

In the end which ever you use must compiment your secondary profession and your team build.

Feurin Longcastle · Dec 19, 2006, 07:53 AM // 07:53

Nexus, no offense to you personally but you're just being stubborn. No one is saying mesmers are ineffectual. Far from it. However, they're inferior to warriors where deep wound is concerned. Dismember charges in 5 swings, 5 seconds under IAS. Even with no IAS it can be applied every 7 seconds. To argue that using 3 skill slots plus a few more just to manage the energy usage (which admittedly you will need) works out to half your bar for what a warrior can do with just 1 skill.

And twicky mentioned out my other point, deep wound is incredibly useful in PvE. There are sufficient targets that you can apply a new deep wound with dismember every time it charges. Weapon + 100 dmg is nothing to scoff at for a 5 adren non-elite.