Curse

Crom The Pale · Dec 15, 2006, 09:47 PM // 21:47

While I find both axe and sword have excellent damage more often than not its the sword that is more reliable.

With skills like Jaizhenju Strike, Pure Strike, Seeking Blade and Sun and Moon Slash there is no chance for the damage to be avoided.

Your build balance will lead to other choices based on what is more important in a certain encounter.
For example Savage Slash vs Distrupting Chop. Which is more important when you need an interupt, disabling the skill for 20 seconds or dealing extra damage vs spell. If you fighitng a monk you probly want that spell disabled but vs an elementalist or a necromancer the extra damage might make more sence.

If your looking at adrenaline attacks keep in mind your saving that energy for something. If its a major damage skill/spell then you want the adren attacks to keep presure up untill your ready for the big payoff. If its a heal or defencive skill you may want more of a condition/heavy damage build to out last your target.

What it all comes down to is if there is a certain task you need to perform and only one skill in either Axe mastery or Swordsmanship then that is the one you need. If there is no 'must have' skill then either will work as they tend to equal out damage wise in the end when you concider time for skill recharge/adrenaline/multi hits and conditions.

jesh · Dec 15, 2006, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Orinn

Axe benefits:
higher DPS on auto-attack
non-elite skill (cyclone axe) that's good for building fast adrenaline in many circumstances (but not all) [pretty much all the time, even if there's 1 foe, you still gain 1 strike]
Eviscerate: good damage, deep wound[useless in pve]
Multiple conditions usable.[useless in pve besides dismember]
-3- attacks that can interrupt, although only 1 doesn't have a precondition or a chance. [So what do swords have? Savage Slash? Please, what a joke of a skill. Critical Chop is first and foremost an aid to a spike, not an interrupt. ]

Axe drawbacks:
Slower attack rate means slower adrenaline charging.
High-adrenaline skills and no "bonus adrenaline" skills except cyclone axe.
Most conditions depend on already having deep wound [This has all been covered.. you're forgetting swift chop, and that all sword energy moves suck.]

Sword benefits:
Higher attack rate means faster adrenaline gain. This can also be supplemented by certain sword skills that give extra adrenaline.
Riposite and Deadly Riposite require a sword to use- whether these skills are worth using or not depends on your build and intent, though.
Spammable attack skills with low adrenaline build-up and sometimes conditions (sever artery, gash) [Ripostes are for farming]
Unconditional cripple effect with hamstring [This is a good point, actually.]

Quote:

Another axe benefit:
A deep wound that doesn't rely on bleeding or the target being knocked down. [I already wrote this]
In PvE there are a lot of monsters that are immune to bleeding, and a lot that are immune to knockdown. [Mostly in Prophecies I think.. but yes, sword lacks deep wound when fighting Mursaat, etc.]

But with the right build, if you want sustained single target DPS, not spike DPS or AoE DPS, sword beats axe. Just make sure to ignore the mainstream condition dealers such as Sever Artery and Gash. Highly overrated combo in my opinion, especially in PvE.

Sever and Gash are your only way to get deep wound! *points the way out of the warrior forums* Deep Wound on a boss can easily be over 200hp instantly gone, it enables you to kill a target at least 20% faster, 100% of the time. Dragon Slash might have higher single target DPS 20 out of 45 seconds, but Triple Chop can definitely destroy it in PvE.

Quote:

I disagree with the sword attacks, IMO Galrath Slash/Silverwing Slash/Standing slash would fit better in a dragon slash build then sever+gash

Deep wound kills faster than not. End of story..

Quote:

Sword still has sun and moon or dragon slash for slightly higher adrenaline buildup, but that's not really a lot[Cyclone.]. Sword still has lower adrenaline costs overall, giving you more spammable skills.

Been over this.. no.

Quote:

Sword, with spammable conditions and lower-adrenaline skills, is better at pressure.[Deep Wound is easier on an axe] Axe, with higher average per-hit damage, higher max damage, and higher crit damage, is better for spiking, but in truth, the differences between them are small enough that a good player can use either one for either purpose, and do fine most of the time. If you're in high-end PvP, choose accordingly, but for normal PvE, either one will work just fine.

In PvP most teams will run both, because 2 Eviscerates isn't better than 1, but a Final Thrust sure helps (discounting pressure builds or splitting for a spike).

Quote:

With skills like Jaizhenju Strike, Pure Strike, Seeking Blade and Sun and Moon Slash there is no chance for the damage to be avoided.

Bad skill, bad skill, bad skill, and decent skill, but not that great. If you don't want anything to avoid attacks, take Wild Blow or stick Expose Defenses on a hero. Or better yet, stick Wild Blow on a hero, Melonni loves it.

Quote:

For example Savage Slash vs Distrupting Chop. Which is more important when you need an interupt, disabling the skill for 20 seconds or dealing extra damage vs spell. If you fighitng a monk you probly want that spell disabled but vs an elementalist or a necromancer the extra damage might make more sence.

The most sense would be not taking Savage Slash.

Quote:

If your looking at adrenaline attacks keep in mind your saving that energy for something. If its a major damage skill/spell then you want the adren attacks to keep presure up untill your ready for the big payoff. If its a heal or defencive skill you may want more of a condition/heavy damage build to out last your target.

Adrenaline attacks *are* the big payoff. If you're healing with energy on a non ritalist secondary,(which is debatable), then you earn a free collector's edition mushroom stamp. =D
Healing Signet is all you ever need, if that.
Yes, it's ok to use some energy skills on a warrior, even offensive ones, but there's no reason to "save" them up. You can use them right away. Example is Mark of Pain. Excellent warrior skill, but should be cast early, before you have much adrenaline at all. The exception is obviously if the skill was recharging.

Crom The Pale · Dec 16, 2006, 08:04 AM // 08:04

Not sure what your big fear of savage slash is, ive found it to be a great way to deal a lot of fast damage and ruin any casters day.

Adrenaline attacks are not the big payoff with the exception of final thrust and executioners strike.

You really seam to be stuck with about 10 skills that you like, thats fine for you but that doesn't make all the other skills worthless.

As for saving up the energy for high cost skills I was refferng to using sound timing on them not holding them back till the target is almost dead. Some skills must be cast first, for example I often start with meteor shower then move in while there on there backs and unload with adren skills. Having another high damage or aoe damge energy skill that can be used as soon as the energy is back up like Triple chop or Star Burst.

As for the OP's question, there is no 'better' choice. Each has its use in certain places and with certain builds, the same can be said for all of the wars skills or any other profession.

The only real question is which do you have more fun with? Which build will fit into your party best?

Those are the only real questions that matter.

Yukito Kunisaki · Dec 16, 2006, 09:14 AM // 09:14

Some people forget the warrior's basis:

Take hits
Kill fast...

Taking hits is easy since by and large we are the most armored class in the game and with the use of shouts and legionare armor [yay stancing] we could have the best AL to everything in the game [barring a ranger's ele specialist armor]

killing fast

Deep Wound

It's simple math really:
Without it, your foe will take 20% more time to kill and receive full benefit from healing...

With it, healing is reduced by 20% [save regen], and you are guarunteed [sp] 100hp maximum hp removal when deep wound lands...

Sword and axe can both deep wound but axe does it faster. No bleeding needed and now that dismember is only 5a. you can drop it faster [though eviscerate is still king, I think Decapitate is going to replace it once people get around the e. and a. weakness]

Nexus Icon · Dec 16, 2006, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

Sever and Gash are your only way to get deep wound! *points the way out of the warrior forums* Deep Wound on a boss can easily be over 200hp instantly gone, it enables you to kill a target at least 20% faster, 100% of the time. Dragon Slash might have higher single target DPS 20 out of 45 seconds, but Triple Chop can definitely destroy it in PvE.

Deep wound kills faster than not. End of story..

Oh hush.
The highlighted bit was uncalled for, and now, in retaliation, I'm going to make the point that warriors shouldn't really be dealing in deep wounds in the first place.

NEWSFLASH!
1: Warriors are NOT the best class for dishing out deep wounds.
2: And contrary to what most warriors believe, deep wound is not the best condition in the game.

Point 1:
A mesmer running [wiki]fevered dreams[/wiki], [wiki]phantom pain[/wiki], [wiki]shatter delusions[/wiki] and [wiki]accumulated pain[/wiki] is much more efficient at dishing out deep wounds; what's more, they dish them out in an area of effect. As the popular vernacular would have it "pwnt".

Point 2:
All of the conditions have their places. Not one of them is "The Best".
A R/Me dishing out the dazes with [wiki]broad head arrow[/wiki], [wiki]concussion shot[/wiki] and [wiki]epidemic[/wiki] can completely shut down whole groups of casters.

Fire is good! Ask any Ele about [wiki]searing flames[/wiki]. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that Searing Flames is the "Easy Mode" button for GW, especially when combined with [wiki]glowing gaze[/wiki].

Ever fought a [wiki]crippling shot[/wiki] ranger? Nuff said.

And as warriors, how many of us hate blind with a passion?

Poison is a long lasting degen, easily spammable by certain classes, excellent for pressure.

The same goes for bleeding.

Disease is a degen that spreads. A nightmare for a monk to handle quickly.

Deep wound has it's place amongst these, but I wouldn't say it outshines them. For a start, yes, they lose 20% health, but when deep wound is removed (and if the monk is good, it will be removed), bang, they've just regained 20% health. What's more, most bosses in Factions and Nightfall have half condition duration.

So overall, I'd say leave the condition spamming to other classes that are better suited to it. After all, the team is supposed to synergise...
A sword warrior not worrying about inflicting a deep wound has just freed up 2 skill slots for high damage attacks.
And the best thing about high damage attacks? Healing is the ONLY cure.

warriorsmiley · Dec 16, 2006, 12:58 PM // 12:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

Oh hush.
The highlighted bit was uncalled for, and now, in retaliation, I'm going to make the point that warriors shouldn't really be dealing in deep wounds in the first place.

NEWSFLASH!
1: Warriors are NOT the best class for dishing out deep wounds.
2: And contrary to what most warriors believe, deep wound is not the best condition in the game.

Point 1:
A mesmer running [wiki]fevered dreams[/wiki], [wiki]phantom pain[/wiki], [wiki]shatter delusions[/wiki] and [wiki]accumulated pain[/wiki] is much more efficient at dishing out deep wounds; what's more, they dish them out in an area of effect. As the popular vernacular would have it "pwnt".

Point 2:
All of the conditions have their places. Not one of them is "The Best".
A R/Me dishing out the dazes with [wiki]broad head arrow[/wiki], [wiki]concussion shot[/wiki] and [wiki]epidemic[/wiki] can completely shut down whole groups of casters.

Fire is good! Ask any Ele about [wiki]searing flames[/wiki]. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that Searing Flames is the "Easy Mode" button for GW, especially when combined with [wiki]glowing gaze[/wiki].

Ever fought a [wiki]crippling shot[/wiki] ranger? Nuff said.

And as warriors, how many of us hate blind with a passion?

Poison is a long lasting degen, easily spammable by certain classes, excellent for pressure.

The same goes for bleeding.

Disease is a degen that spreads. A nightmare for a monk to handle quickly.

Deep wound has it's place amongst these, but I wouldn't say it outshines them. For a start, yes, they lose 20% health, but when deep wound is removed (and if the monk is good, it will be removed), bang, they've just regained 20% health. What's more, most bosses in Factions and Nightfall have half condition duration.

So overall, I'd say leave the condition spamming to other classes that are better suited to it. After all, the team is supposed to synergise...
A sword warrior not worrying about inflicting a deep wound has just freed up 2 skill slots for high damage attacks.
And the best thing about high damage attacks? Healing is the ONLY cure.

You may be right in saying deepwound isnt the best condition in the game. It is the most deadly condition in the game. When a warrior uses a deep wound he is most likely performing a aderaline dump using deepwound first(2nd with sword and hammer) then hitting his/her's 2-3 follow up attacks. Now you can take your warrior without a deepwound and his damage attacks and then another warrior that can dish out a deepwound and see who will kill a target faster more then likely the deepwound will win that battle.

Also bosses in factions and nightfall deal double damage whereas bosses in prophecies have half hex and condition duration. Also monks remove deepwound fast because they know any focus fire on a target with deepwound will 9 times out of 10 kill them in a instant.

Nexus Icon · Dec 16, 2006, 01:08 PM // 13:08

It's also a TEAM game. If a warrior isn't the best at using deep wound, let someone else in the team apply it for you to take advantage of.
Or did you not get that point from my post?
A mesmer using those skills I listed can apply a deep wound in SECONDS by shattering Phantom Pain.
Then a high adrenaline, high DPS build can take advantage of it immediately thanks to "FGJ!" and Enraging Charge giving immediate access to all of the 6+ adrenaline skills.
Tada, deep wound taken advantage of MUCH quicker than attempting it on your own and waiting for the build up.

Haggard · Dec 16, 2006, 01:11 PM // 13:11

Though on paper Deep Wound doesn't sound so great, in practise it allows for some of the most powerful spiking for the smallest input. For example, the slightly old Eviscerate/Executioners combo - it shouldn't be so great, but it just is. I've tried warr builds with no DW before, and it just takes so much longer to kill.

Back to the original question, both are good.

warriorsmiley · Dec 16, 2006, 01:17 PM // 13:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reinfire

The basic difference between axe and sword is very simple.

The sword is a pure raw damage dealer, it focusses itself on slashing large chunks out of your enemy, nothing all to fancy

The axe is a less good at dealing damage than the sword, but it is much better at making the opponent less efficient in battle. Disrupting, weakening and crippling is much more effectively done by an axe then by a sword.

Wow all im going to say about this one. Yes axe can deal many conditions but lets get serious who is going to take all that crap on there skill bar when I can take higher damage attacks and just get rid of the target faster instead of stacking him with all those conditions.

Also sword is a more constant dps source where as axe is a higher dps source with higher damage on critical hits.

warriorsmiley · Dec 16, 2006, 01:29 PM // 13:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

It's also a TEAM game. If a warrior isn't the best at using deep wound, let someone else in the team apply it for you to take advantage of.
Or did you not get that point from my post?
A mesmer using those skills I listed can apply a deep wound in SECONDS by shattering Phantom Pain.
Then a high adrenaline, high DPS build can take advantage of it immediately thanks to "FGJ!" and Enraging Charge giving immediate access to all of the 6+ adrenaline skills.
Tada, deep wound taken advantage of MUCH quicker than attempting it on your own and waiting for the build up.

So lets take a mesmer make him use his elite skill slot with fevered dreams take phantom pain and shatter delusion the PP to get a deepwound in a AOE not to mention waste 25 energy in the process oh and I remember you saying he had accumulated pain. So now the mesmer only has 3 slots left for whatever he/she wants to bring because after all they need a rez sig or a hard rez of some sort. Now me being a warrior and all I can take full advantage of the AOE deepwound because im allowed to hit 1 target at the same time. Lets not forget if your spell caster cast AOE spells you cause the AI to spread out and now hit the softies in the backline but hey whatever works for you.

Also nice contradicition saying waiting on the build up of aderaline right after you said let them use "FGJ" and Enraging charge giving instant access to all the 6+ aderaline skills thats a ton of wait on the aderaline build if you ask me.

Nexus Icon · Dec 16, 2006, 01:36 PM // 13:36

I give up, it's like trying to educate egocentric pork.

Edit: to clarify, YOU'RE NOT THE ONLY ONE HITTING THINGS.
Other people (a hard concept for a warrior to grasp, I know) can take advantage of all those lovely AoE deep wounds.

warriorsmiley · Dec 16, 2006, 01:44 PM // 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

I give up, it's like trying to educate egocentric pork.

Edit: to clarify, YOU'RE NOT THE ONLY ONE HITTING THINGS.
Other people (a hard concept for a warrior to grasp, I know) can take advantage of all those lovely AoE deep wounds.

Yeah I forgot those wand/staves damage adds up alot seeing as you cant cast AOE damage spells or your more then likely to make the AI panic and lose agro.

A Leprechaun · Dec 16, 2006, 01:59 PM // 13:59

lol
Children, children i think we should calm down.
I agree with you both deep wound is very good for a warrior, but not essential, as once youve applied it the skill used is useless against that foe.
Also if you have 2 or more warriors then there is no ned for more than 1 deep wound, so mabye one could not bring it.

Deep wound is great but if there is another warrior floating about, you dont *need* to bring it.

~A leprechaun~

Nexus Icon · Dec 16, 2006, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by warriorsmiley

Yeah I forgot those wand/staves damage adds up alot seeing as you cant cast AOE damage spells or your more then likely to make the AI panic and lose agro.

As Leprechaun pointed out, there may be another warrior on the team.
God, I hate to use manager-speak, but there's rarely been a better opportunity for it:
There is no "I" in "Team".

Hand of Ruin · Dec 16, 2006, 02:40 PM // 14:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh Sever and Gash are your only way to get deep wound! *points the way out of the warrior forums* [B

Deep Wound on a boss can easily be over 200hp instantly gone[/B], it enables you to kill a target at least 20% faster, 100% of the time. Dragon Slash might have higher single target DPS 20 out of 45 seconds, but Triple Chop can definitely destroy it in PvE..

Wrong. Deepwound can not lower an opponents health by more than 100 points.

A Leprechaun · Dec 16, 2006, 03:37 PM // 15:37

y not?

Nexus Icon · Dec 16, 2006, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Unno, but according to Wiki, Hand of Ruin's right.
Even less reason to have deep wound then.

Tingi · Dec 16, 2006, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

There is no "I" in "Team".

But there is a "m.e" in it

Thom Bangalter · Dec 16, 2006, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Every time you play warrior and can't cause deep wound, God Kills a kitten.

Crom The Pale · Dec 16, 2006, 04:45 PM // 16:45

Deep wound is a great skill for spiking, as to where or not the axe is the best way to deliver it...not in every situation.

With the sword it is slower to inflict but with the sword you gain the added effect of bleeding, and if they remove the deep wound there likely still bleeding. If killed more bosses with bleeding than any other condition, and it prevents the auto mending most all bosses have.

With the axe you can inflict it fast, meaning your team has to spike that target imediatly after or the condition will be removed. However having a single skill for deep wound means youve another slot for a damage attack and that can be more effective for solo killing targets or using weaker spikes.

As for deep wound being a must it all depends on the role the war is playing. If he is pulling agro and tanking then hes probably more concerned with evade/blocking and less about damage. If hes chasing down scattering casters then Hamstring becomes a must, or a knockdown of choice. For degen bleeding + virolence is hard to beat and adding Hamstring to further layer it gives the monks lots to worry about. For AoE damage Triple chop + Cyclone axe and a secndary skill like Lightning Touch are great, more for scattering a mob that is focusing on one of your casters than for killing.

As has been stated before....

Axe and Sword are equal in usefullness...

Situational in application.