Curse

Epinephrine · Dec 04, 2006, 05:10 PM // 17:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razorwood

Only being able to have one weapon spell active does make sense since it replaces your weapon.

But I do agree some do need changing, a lot should be more spamable so you can benifit your team. Of course the duration on some would have to be lowered to counteract.

I agree, the weapon spells are tricky to balance; you need to keep in mind the two factors:
1.) you can only have one active, so they should be more powerful than enchants
2.) they can't be stripped, so they should be less powerful than enchants.
3.) They aren't affected by skills/items to lengthen enchantments, making them slightly weaker than an equivalent enchantment that way (you can get a free 20% extension on enchantments, more for some classes with some skills like Blessed Aura)

What it comes down to is weighting for each skill really; For example, I think Weapon of Warding is too weak with a 2 second casting time. It does have a benefit over guardian, in that it provides health regen, and it can't be stripped; 2 seconds casting is just too long, and it gives the same duration of protection for points invested; a bit less compared with a 20% enchanting wrapping. Resilient Weapon is about right. The Vengeful and Remedy are great. I'd like them to tweak them all a bit, get them in line with what they offer cost-wise, time-wise, efficiency and coverage.

oinkers · Dec 04, 2006, 06:52 PM // 18:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Razorwood

1. There is also no Sin and Mesmer in the mainline story missions, so does that mean they suck as well.

2. That's called "taste" you can't slag off a class because YOU don't like it's armor.
3. What about skills like Renewing Surge, Angish, Signet of Binding, Spirit's Gift and Wielder's Zeal?

1. Yes, sins suck. They suck heavily at getting into PUGs. They can't venture into any of the high-end areas like UW/Deep/Urgoz, but that's another story for another forum.

2. Taste is one thing, but the number of unique armors for Rits in NF is less than that for say, necros. That's a clear indication of how much effort ANet put into Rits in NF. There are many other examples, i.e. lousy greens.

3. Renewaing Surge., Anguish !? wtf. None of these are compelling like Searing Flames is for Eles.

You guys just dont get it. Rits are playable yes - I use mine for solo farming Onis and scarabs amongst other things. But they're not getting the support from ANet to be a proper 1st class char.

If you want to get by on so-so skills, that's fine. Dont try to pretend they'll ever do anything as well as the other classes.

oinkers · Dec 04, 2006, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Ritualists may have been hit hard in a few places, but the channeling line buffs are amazing.

That about sums it up really. Calling channeling "amazing" is missing entirely what eles can do with spells like Conjure Lightning. You want lightning damage? Pick an ele, not some tarted up Rit - at least eles have the energy pool and the elites to back it up.

Nothing else the Rits do is compelling enough to be included as 1st choice in any high end team. Used to be spirit spammers existed, but 25 energy on the important spirits when they only last a few seconds is a non-starter.

When it comes to teams, I'll always prefer the big gun eles/monks anyday over a Rit.

oinkers · Dec 04, 2006, 07:23 PM // 19:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Perynne

I haven't had much trouble in finding groups in Nightfall. Ritualist MM totally owns some of the missions, and while communing was hit hard by the nerf, ...

That comment is very telling. I run a minion bomber too, and it's a sad state of affairs for the rit when one of the few popular builds involves having half your skillbar populated with non-Rit skills....

Oh yeah, Boon of Creation nerfed to return 6 energy instead of 7? Do I really need to go on?

(Note: Main problem with communing is that the 20/20 on communing staffs don't help the spirit rituals).

Epinephrine · Dec 04, 2006, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by oinkers

That about sums it up really. Calling channeling "amazing" is missing entirely what eles can do with spells like Conjure Lightning. You want lightning damage? Pick an ele, not some tarted up Rit - at least eles have the energy pool and the elites to back it up.

Nothing else the Rits do is compelling enough to be included as 1st choice in any high end team. Used to be spirit spammers existed, but 25 energy on the important spirits when they only last a few seconds is a non-starter.

When it comes to teams, I'll always prefer the big gun eles/monks anyday over a Rit.

Wow, triple posting. You do know about the edit button, right?

Channeling is an excellent lineup, complementing the rits other abilities. They can get good damage output while providing support at the same time. You don't have to like it, but it's true. Yes, the damage numbers aren't what an elementalist cranks out necessarily (the lack of 25% penetration hurts) but they can nonetheless pack a whollop, and thanks to ashes they can add more to an AoE spike for example; an instant 122 extra damage doesn't hurt.

Lets put it another way - I've gotten many gladiator points with ritualist channeling/restoration hybrids that I wouldn't have gotten with an elementalist, simply because it is too difficult to provide both healing and offense in the elementalist lineup. Sometimes you really want both options, and having a spike assist skill like Wielder's Strike is handy to be able to lend 126 damage to a spike for 5 energy. That's pretty efficient, for a non-line of sight 1 second casting spell. Find me an equivalent in the elementalsit lineup. Provide healing, some one pings for help and you pile on extra damage. Always nice. Remember the good old days, when iQ would run Vamp Gaze of their Mo/N boon prots? A solid spike assist from a support player goes a long way.

No, Rits don't dish out the damage of an elementalist, but it's hard to beat them for efficiency - they can just keep churning out damage, allowing them to also heal or do whatever else they are called on for. It's hard to compare, because most rit skills are conditional, but when you meet the conditions they tend to out-do the equivalent spell.

Spirit Burn and Lightning Strike are both non-LoS lightning damage spells with a 5,1,5 profile. Lightning Strike deals 53 with 25% penetration, which is 69 damage Vs AL60, while Spirit Burn is a base of 63, with 47 bonus if you are near a spirit - for 110 damage. At less than 170 or so AL Spirit Burn wins. It can't be done for each skill, but many channeling skills are simply better skills than air magic - like the Wielder's Strike - if you meet the requirement you have a 5 cost 126 damage spell at 1 second casting, no-LoS needed. That's almost as much damage as a Lightning Hammer, another non-LoS spell, but it's a fifth the cost, half the cast time and recharges 20% faster - though it does 9% less damage versus AL60.

oinkers · Dec 04, 2006, 08:21 PM // 20:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Channeling is an excellent lineup, complementing the rits other abilities.

<snip>

Lets put it another way - I've gotten many gladiator points with ritualist channeling/restoration hybrids that I wouldn't have gotten with an elementalist, simply because it is too difficult to provide both healing and offense in the elementalist lineup.

<chop chop snip snip>

No, Rits don't dish out the damage of an elementalist, but it's hard to beat them for efficiency - they can just keep churning out damage, allowing them to also heal or do whatever else they are called on for.

Not to downplay your reasoned arguments, but channeling Rit's aren't gonna supplant ele air spikers in PvP scenarios. They're not going to replace E/Mo HP pumpers either. Rits may be more 'efficient', certainly I feel their DPS is more even but significantly lower.

But my point originally wasn't about how channeling compared to ele air magic, but about how late any buffs took to arrive - by that time NF previews were out and all the people who bought Factions initially had already finished the game, beat Shiro and formed their opinions about the usefuless (or lack thereof) of Rits. If first impressions count, then that must have been the slap that yanked off any of my remaining goodwill for Rits and how ANet have handled them.

I see the same thing happening with the spear-line for Paragons - arguably the equivalent thing happening in NF. Paragons are the new Rits - second-class in everything with a crap damage line - like channeling was for Rits for a long time. If ANet are true to form, they won't buff the spear-line until it's too late again, but they will quite happily nerf the motivation/command lines if it helps PvP.

Epinephrine · Dec 04, 2006, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Yeah, there's a real anti-rit bias, especially among PvPers, due to the way Shelter-spam affected the game. The nerf to Shelter was needed, but as you said, the buffs came late. Paragons needed nerfing, since they simply provided too much. Isaiah has been quoted as saying that overpowered defensive skills take priority over overpowered offensive spells, as we can clearly see - defensive classes get the big hits. Underpowered skills get little attention; he's apparently got a list of them, but the fact is that most concern is about overpowered defense, and then offense. Nobody cares if a skill is complete crap, which unfortunately too many are. I happen to love PvP, and I do see the point - it was frustrating to play during the era of Shelter spam, and paragons were making life nightmarish.

Given that this was a thread to provide advice to a potential ritualist those of us who enjoy playing it will of course offer encouragement, and there are strong builds and skills for ritualists. They may be relegated to being second best at some things, but that's pretty good when you do several of them at a time.

I hope that if the ritualist continues through the chapters (which I hope it does, as it's my second favorite class, next to ranger) that it will slowly gain favour. As it is I still use them, and I even run one in GvG sometimes, albeit a very different build from the old spirit-based stuff. It's great fun to use a ritualist to gank and spike assist, and it's a heck of a resilient runner.

Anyway, to the OP, despite anti-Rit sentiment, there is plenty of fun to be had playing a ritualist, and it isn't as weak as some think.

And Oinkers, if they buff the spear attacks to make up for the command/motivation stuff my ranger will be happy to pick up a spear again :P

unmatchedfury · Dec 04, 2006, 09:35 PM // 21:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by oinkers

That about sums it up really. Calling channeling "amazing" is missing entirely what eles can do with spells like Conjure Lightning. You want lightning damage? Pick an ele, not some tarted up Rit - at least eles have the energy pool and the elites to back it up.

Nothing else the Rits do is compelling enough to be included as 1st choice in any high end team. Used to be spirit spammers existed, but 25 energy on the important spirits when they only last a few seconds is a non-starter.

When it comes to teams, I'll always prefer the big gun eles/monks anyday over a Rit.

I pretty muc hagree withi you even though i love rits. the problem is that ALL of the rits dmg for pure channeling is mitigateable. you can use amor and make it worthless. while eles have inate armor peirce, fire dmg, slow, and huge defense benifits with their respective elements.

rits can't deal dmg at all with channeling in PvE, they have to resort to minion bombing. spirits in PvE take far too long to set up and hte spirits have too muc hcool down in order for the spirits to be good dmg dealers in PvE. (even though spirits are armor ignoreing.)

sacrypheyes · Dec 05, 2006, 02:13 AM // 02:13

ask lvl 28 mobs if rit's armor-ignoring damage spirits don't hurt

well i have to agree that not much of nf skills are that noticeable, though they gave us :
-anguish : add in Signet of Ghostly Might + painfull bond for some 100+ dmg per hit for 10s... ouch?)
-Signet of Binding : very nice to use with wanderlust or even a mere shelter
-gaze of fury : best way to deny some opponent spirit and get one more on your side, not to say it can also be used on our own spirits such as pain, bloodsong which easily last longer than skill recharge

which i find being some of the most valuable additions they made in nf (well that is as a com/chan user, when playing solo though i can switch to some decent healing/prot build too if needed).

rit is often underrated but it remains a powerfull class if used right acording to the situation. as a backline support, rit is without a doubt :
-some of the best if not the best area control class
-the most versatile class in all guildwars, being able to bring damage as well as healing or protection to his party (though the last part becomes weaker as the number of mobs grow)

i love my rit, and am far from even thinking of deleting it.

that's why i'm so damn upset Anet put such a painfull way to get the sole rit hero, hoping they may change it soon

Razorwood · Dec 05, 2006, 09:08 AM // 09:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by oinkers

1. Yes, sins suck. They suck heavily at getting into PUGs. They can't venture into any of the high-end areas like UW/Deep/Urgoz, but that's another story for another forum.

2. Taste is one thing, but the number of unique armors for Rits in NF is less than that for say, necros. That's a clear indication of how much effort ANet put into Rits in NF. There are many other examples, i.e. lousy greens.

3. Renewaing Surge., Anguish !? wtf. None of these are compelling like Searing Flames is for Eles.

You guys just dont get it. Rits are playable yes - I use mine for solo farming Onis and scarabs amongst other things. But they're not getting the support from ANet to be a proper 1st class char.

If you want to get by on so-so skills, that's fine. Dont try to pretend they'll ever do anything as well as the other classes.

1. I've done UW with my Sin before.

2. The reason they have less armor is because Rts (And Sin) aren't core characters and can't be created in NF, the next chapter will be the same with De and P. Are you going to slag them off then?

3. Personally I love Angiush, but if you want to play with overpowered skills that will probably get hit with the nerf hammer be my guest.

If Rts could do anything as well as the other classes they would be overpowered. They can take on pretty much anyrole in a group so there has to be a downside. So since there not supposted to do everything as well as everyone else why would I pretend they can?

Quote:

Originally Posted by unmatchedfury

rits can't deal dmg at all with channeling in PvE, they have to resort to minion bombing. spirits in PvE take far too long to set up and hte spirits have too muc hcool down in order for the spirits to be good dmg dealers in PvE. (even though spirits are armor ignoreing.)

I've used spirits through all 3 games with no real problems at all, ritual lord ftw. Or use draw spirit.

All you have to do is set the spirits up then lure any mobs close by into them, if your teams never use tactics that's hardly the Rts fault is it.

jesh · Dec 05, 2006, 10:06 AM // 10:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmptySpiral1283

Purely opinion I know, but I would like to know how one comes to such a conclusion.I have heard the same about Assassin.

Whoah, whoah! Easy there. The difference is that assassins are good, and ritualists aren't! Assassins have a role only they can fill, and Ritualists are decent at doing a few things, while not being spectacular at anything. The only exception, I think is the elite Attuned Was Songaki. Mass hexes just rock. I think the ritualist is far from useless, but .. well.. meh. You can play a good ritualist, but you can also play a good (insert other class).

Actually, let me rephrase that. The ritualist's role is to hold a defined space against oncoming enemies, which has little practical value in PvP or Pve.. yes, there are times, but admit it. You'd rather have something else other than a ritualist.

FYI, I haven't seen any channeling buffs, when did that happen? I doubt they got AP, did they?

Cebe · Dec 05, 2006, 11:45 AM // 11:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

Whoah, whoah! Easy there. The difference is that assassins are good, and ritualists aren't! Assassins have a role only they can fill, and Ritualists are decent at doing a few things, while not being spectacular at anything. The only exception, I think is the elite Attuned Was Songaki. Mass hexes just rock. I think the ritualist is far from useless, but .. well.. meh. You can play a good ritualist, but you can also play a good (insert other class).

You're being just a little contradictary I think - you say Rits aren't good...then you say Ritualists are far from useless. But...wtf is with the comment on Mass Hexes? That seems completely out of context. What 'Mass Hexes'?

In my opinion Ritualists do have some form of 'niche'. It strikes me that the one thing a class is particularly good at is often tied in with their primary attribute. Although I agree that, for the most part, Ritualists are 'ok' allrounders at some things but have something no other class does. Spawning. Ritualists use communing and spawning to create spirits which are beneficial to a team in different ways. And why is spawning important? Spawning gives spirits health. Knowing your opponent and selecting the right spirits for the job is what a Ritualist needs to do. For example, in the Desolation I take Disenchantment. Why? Because of those NASTY dune carvers with Vow of Silence. Now yes, you could say "Bring a Necro with CHillblains" or something to that effect...but a spirit is on Auto-Pilot and just keeps pounding the crap outta things, not to mension that there's never a Curses necro around when you need one. A Summoner's job is to keep their spirits up continually...that's part of their challenge.

Oh, and don't generalise and say assassins are good and Rits are bad. Otherwise I will generalise to say assassins are very very bad.

Epinephrine · Dec 05, 2006, 12:30 PM // 12:30

One problem is that you are arguing with (I suspect) PvPers, as is evident by the way jesh says assassins have a role; they very much do in PvP. Ritualists have a role too, the problem is that their main roles have been hurt badly by nerfs and by the popularity of skills like Spiritual Pain; since any spirit using group will likely face a spike with at least one copy of Spiritual Pain the enemy have a hugely effective skill facing them.

I've run ritualists of many types in PvP, and still do, but the role is much more limited now than it was. The only ritualist I run in GvG at the moment is a runner, exploiting the huge power of Weapon of Remedy and Vengeful Weapon; these skills shine in 1v1 or other small scale situations, making them ideal for a runner who faces 1 or 2 foes at a time; reflecting as much damage as they do you can easily handle most groups that come after you, you can gank with them faster than many players, you can counter-gank via healing/lifesteal etc.

The comment about mass hexing is based on the AMAZING energy management that is Attuned Was Songkai; when the reduction rounds the cost of 5 energy skills to 2 you are getting 2.5 times the bang for your buck, making it an effective platform for spamming spells. It beats things like ether prodigy this way, especially if you pump any energy to them - a blood ritual to an AWS-using ritualist allows him to effectively have 7.5 extra pips worth of casting power instead of 3; every point of energy they use is the equivalentof 2.5 points for someone else. AWS is an amazing skill that way, the big disadvantages are that it has a downtime and that if you die you are waiting a long time to get functional again.

oinkers · Dec 05, 2006, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

One problem is that you are arguing with (I suspect) PvPers, as is evident by the way jesh says assassins have a role; they very much do in PvP. Ritualists have a role too, the problem is that their main roles have been hurt badly by nerfs and by the popularity of skills like Spiritual Pain; since any spirit using group will likely face a spike with at least one copy of Spiritual Pain the enemy have a hugely effective skill facing them.

I think the dissonance in a lot of the arguments do stem from the varying truths of various statements made in PvP vs. PvE. People who are upbeat about Rits clearly do so from the point of a PvPer - I have to say I enjoy the PvE more. It is clear, it seems to me, that the role of Rits in PvP may have been balanced by the Rit Lord nerf (+communing e-cost nerf), but the detrimental effect to Rits in PvE is so much that it changes (not reduces) the Rits from being a viable build to an indifferent team player at best.

I do have a Rit which I play as often as I can, but most of the time when I'm forming a party, I tend to prefer 1heal/1prot monk combos instead, or I substitue the rit for a mesmer to get more flexible e-control or outright dom damage. The Rit struggles to keep up in any of the objectives I want to achieve in PvE.

EmptySpiral1283 · Dec 06, 2006, 05:28 AM // 05:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by jesh

Whoah, whoah! Easy there. The difference is that assassins are good, and ritualists aren't! Assassins have a role only they can fill, and Ritualists are decent at doing a few things, while not being spectacular at anything. The only exception, I think is the elite Attuned Was Songaki. Mass hexes just rock. I think the ritualist is far from useless, but .. well.. meh. You can play a good ritualist, but you can also play a good (insert other class).

Actually, let me rephrase that. The ritualist's role is to hold a defined space against oncoming enemies, which has little practical value in PvP or Pve.. yes, there are times, but admit it. You'd rather have something else other than a ritualist.

FYI, I haven't seen any channeling buffs, when did that happen? I doubt they got AP, did they?

Whoa whoa try reading the rest of the post hot shot.

"I have heard the same about Assassin.I have never REALLY tried Assassin much, but have been in groups where it owned the pants off of the warriors and dervishes."

It's all in the hands of the user.When it comes to any of the stuff a Ritualist does "so-so", your right, I wouldn't want any Ritualist, I want to be the Ritualist.Why?Because I like it, I can use it, I have absolutely NO trouble in ANY area of ANY of the campaigns.No more than anyone does with ANY other class.I COULD play a good "other class" but I prefer being a good rit.Why?It's fun to me.When you enjoy a class, you put more into it.When you put more into it, you get better at it.When you get better at it, you demonstrate it's abilities in game, make friends, and own the game with those friends, who you work well with.Or you shred the campaigns all alone with henches.That applies to any class.

Razorwood · Dec 06, 2006, 08:29 AM // 08:29

Just so you know i've never used my Rt in PvP.