Curse

LightningHell · Dec 09, 2006, 05:05 AM // 05:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by pingu666

i think pvp is different, more favourable of conditional stuff, ive been critised by a pvp player for not healing her enough, while they played there fire ele as a frontline fighter, about 70% of my healing went on her, as fast as i could cast. i think only sup runes or infuse health 2-3 times would of healed for more. maybe some enchanment which boosts healing perhaps (divine boon)

I have no idea what you are talking about.

martialis · Dec 09, 2006, 06:45 AM // 06:45

If you want to mix healing and protection, guardian and protective spirit are typical spells. The boon/prot is just a different kind of healer, and the one on guildwiki is okay. What don't you understand about it?

The biggest disadvantage to prot is that you don't have Light of Deliverance or heal party, and no points to put in healing to use them.

random.name · Dec 09, 2006, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Depending on the area/mission I run the following build:

1. Signet of Rejuvenation -- This is a great conditional heal with a long range for the tanks. Downside is the long recharge and its useless as a self heal.

2. Jamei's Gaze -- High energy cost (10), but a very good heal for a party member eating a spike. Downside is that it is easy to overheal with this.

3. Healing Whisper -- Used on party members around me. Dangerous to use on the tanks due to the short range, but can be used in a emergency.

4. Orison -- Self Heal. Also used if someone is taking non-threatening pressure.

kosh · Dec 09, 2006, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amok Affinity

orison is crap, crap crap crap. learned that quick dragging my poor, tattered monk across all creation.

but it wouldn't be very nice to dismiss a skill without offering an equivalent/replacement, so here's something you can even treat it almost exactly like orison!:

reversal of fortune! yes damnit, yes! spec some out of DF or HP or whatever (you dont need a ton of df anyhow, 'round 10 is sweetness imho) and throw it into prot if you arent specced for prot anyhoo. if you can wedge it up to a 50ish negation youve got what, 2 orisons? worth of mitigation in one spammable 5e spell.

other goodies:
dwayna's kiss! - Huge cheap conditional heal. beautiful.

healing whisper - for your caster buddies sitting beside you when theyre getting spiked down by pesky ranger mobs or somesuch i guess

signet of rejuvenation - no one likes this thing for some reason! but then again straight hp isnt very popular so meh. i like to use it, if im running LoD or something, to heal mm's after saccing and during animations since those take a damn year to get off as well as the ocassional ailing absurdly-long-cast-time ele. good on melee as youll nearly always meet the condition for the attractive portion of the sig

quick edit: before bashing LoD, check out its freaking range. you can heal the entire area of the radar with that bastard

ok,rof VS orison, can someone say "life steal"...

kiss and whisper= good but u got no self heal.

but 1st thing 1st. as a monk you want to decide whice att line you tend to like/be good at,i found that mix&match monk such half bar prot half bar heal is bit all over the place. at the end of the day it all depend on the environment you are heading, as prot in pvp ( lets say HA vs b spike), useless.. just kiting around and RC once in a while. prot consider somtimes better for people becouse it heal and prot at the same time (at least use to be with boon before the update), prot prevent damage from affecting, but again depende whice. back to the point, breeze at 9 heal will give you 180 heal, so 90 for 5 energy.. thats not to bad... prob with that 1st of all its Enchantment Spell= cne be removed, also as other pointed out thre is a tendency to sometimes over heal with that. breeze got its places to be used (mainly pve) as for orison.. great skill fpr pve, cheap,self heal. again all depend.. if your doing a 8/8 mission and 2 monks and your the heal monk... u need to think about self heal...myself perfer touch for that.
in the end this 2 skills for pve are not hate as i see it.. but you can find better ones (still breeze saved a lot of pips i knoe thorugh alot of risky areas)
as for pvp=in one word=no.

Age · Dec 09, 2006, 10:44 PM // 22:44

We aren't talking about PvP here we are talking about PvE and all the skills that were mentioned that are in Factions I don't think i saw any NF skills you have to buy them.Who really wants to buy them when you have something just as good and not everyone has Factions and NF and RoF is nice to negate the damage ad sometimes provide a small heal but that is for protect not healing we are talking about healing and in heavy hex area it is only healing that can keep you alive.There really is nothing in protection to do this sure there are some but not like healing.when useing Orisons there is a Devine Favour bonus added to it runes or not and what was your main heal when you got to post and made it to LA and even Amnoon.

Rera · Dec 10, 2006, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Did you people even read Ensign's post?

Age · Dec 10, 2006, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Yeah I read Ensigns post and agree with most of his points.

Effigy · Dec 10, 2006, 03:25 PM // 15:25

Let's compare Orison to Reversal of Fortune in terms of efficiency. Both are 5 energy cost with 2 second recharge and self-targettable. However, RoF has a 1/4 sec cast time compared to Orison's 1 sec--already a point in RoF's favor. Now let's look at their effects. Assuming 14 in Healing or Prot, respectively:

Orison heals for 67hp, regardless of the situation. Also note that this healing takes place after the damage is dealt. If the target was very low on health, he may have already died before Orison could get to him.

RoF will prevent up to 76 damage from a single source, as well as healing for the same amount of damage as was prevented. Under ideal conditions (meaning the target took 76+ damage from a single source while enchanted with RoF), this will result in a net "healing" of 152hp, because RoF will stop some damage as well as healing damage already taken from other sources. Unlike Orison, RoF prevents damage before it happens and can thus keep a target from dying. The downside, of course, is that the efficiency of RoF is dependent on the amount of damage taken from that one source. However, the target would only need to take 34 damage from one source in order for RoF to exceed the efficiency of Orison. RoF, as an enchantment, also has the advantage of providing energy to the target if it is a Dervish; on the other hand, it is also subject to some types of enchantment hate, like Well of the Profane. Since its duration is short, removal is not much of an issue.

As you can see, RoF exceeds Orison's efficiency and utility in most situations. This also gives you a brief (though not complete) synopsis of Healing Prayers and Protection Prayers in general. It shouldn't be hard to understand why I prefer prot, given the above comparison. The main point, though, is that Orison is just not a very powerful skill. You could match its efficiency in most situations by using RoF at 4 Prot. Avoid using Orison unless you really don't have any other decent alternatives.

Ensign · Dec 10, 2006, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by martialis

The biggest disadvantage to prot is that you don't have Light of Deliverance or heal party, and no points to put in healing to use them.

The only Protection skill that really wants you to spec to 14 or higher is Zealous Benediction. Shield of Absorption is nice at 14 for the 7th second, but the skill is still very good at 10 spec. Protective Spirit is solid at 8 spec, the Mends start being great around there, RoF is solid at even a minimal spec and keeps getting better.

Saying you don't have the points for those skills doesn't make any sense, Monks dip into Healing all the time just for Gift of Health. There's nothing stopping you from tri-speccing. The cost of using non-Gift of Health Healing Prayers isn't the points, in my experience, but the poor synergy with the otherwise money Gift of Health.

I've seen tri-spec bars for DoA with Light of Deliverance and Dwayna's Kiss on what is otherwise a Prot bar, it's a bit more specialized than a Gift guy but it was strong for the job in question. There's honestly nothing stopping you from running 13-14 Healing Prayers even on a guy with mostly Protection skills, except your own hangups about how you spend your attribute points.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pingu666

i think pvp is different, more favourable of conditional stuff

Not at all. The difference is that PvP punishes bad build designs, and the more competitive an environment is the harsher the punishment. The punishment, of course, being failure, usually the repeat variety accompanied by gloating in all-chat.

Most of the PvE in Guild Wars is easy enough that a moron spamming Orison of Healing and Healing Breeze will be reasonably successful, particularly with the way PUGs design their teams (with multiple Monks doing that). There's no punishment for bad build design or for sloppy play, if you don't do anything mind-bogglingly stupid and push the keys you succeed and get a cookie. That does not make either you or your bar good. You need a harsh environment to make you really look critically at the holes in your build and play - DoA is good for that to an extent. Just try running Orison and Breeze there and tell me that they're good skills - and before you complain about build composition, know that I do those zones with two hero Monks.

Good PvP builds are very often solid starting points for PvE builds - they've gone through the rigors of having to find the most efficient skills possible for their jobs, and the nature of balance in this game is that the strongest skills tend to carry over across formats. Certainly, the best versions of different characters will vary from format to format, and there are specialized characters for each - there's no need for a base ganking Assassin in PvE, or an Obsidian Flesh tank in PvP - but if you're looking for a strong general bar, you're better off seeing what top guilds are running on observer mode than listening to forum morons talk about how they like Orison and Breeze.

Peace,
-CxE

sage tank · Dec 11, 2006, 03:30 PM // 15:30

I personally have never used orison when I monk, I usually only take 2 direct healing and leave other to condition removal or hex counter or enchantments for protection,

imo Dwayne's Kiss is much better because I always do a protection/ heal combo

like doing shield of absorption and then dwayenas, so that guy gets healed and protected for few seconds, and in hex heavy area dwayne's kiss can go beserk as I have seen 400+ heals,

for self heal take healing touch, there is a reason that it has longer recharge and shorter range.

LouAl · Dec 12, 2006, 12:02 AM // 00:02

the original question has been answered and ignored many times in this thread, but here it is again:

Both spells are great when there is not a lot of pressure on the team. When there is a lot of pressure (damage) on the team, you will need something that heals for more and faster. So, my thought is: If you are bringing a healing spell that works great when the team is not taking damage, why are you playing monk? As a monk, you need to make sure your team survives heavy damage as it happens, and Orison and HB cannot do that as well as other spells (healing and prot).

Orison sucks - It is basic. It doesn't heal for very much but can be used over and over and over. So, the reason why it sucks is that there are other heals that have conditional aspects to them, and Anet has decided that, in order to maintain balance, a spell that will do nothing sometimes should be more powerful at other times. So, a spell like Dwayna's Kiss (one of my favorites) will do nothing if you target yourself, but if you target an ally with a stack of hexes/enchants it is amazingly powerful.

Healing Breeze sucks - Again, it is basic. It heals moderately well over time, but when is that ever useful? I have heard people say that they use it to "top people off" but it is a very expensive way to top off someone's health. I would say that the fact that it can get shattered is hardly an issue, but the fact that it is usually eiter much too slow to keep someone alive or that most of the healing gets wasted when it is used on someone with too much health (over-healing is an issue with all heal spells, but is less of an issue when the spell used only costs 5 e instead of 10e).

Now for the reason for all that hate...

Why do most people use Orison and HB? My experience is that they have yet to find a better spell to use. What this usually tells me is that they are either very low level or have not taken the time to understand why other spells are better. If they are just too lazy to find something that works better, then I don't want them on my team.

It is the same issue to me as when group leaders want 3 monks on a team. All it really does is create redundant healing/proting that largely goes to waste.

So, if you want to replace them with better healing spells (that is, if you want stay away from protection and remain a healer) here are some suggestions

@ 16 healing
Healing Breeze: 18 health per second for 10 seconds for a total of 180 health for 10 energy which is 18 hlth per energy

replace it with

Vigorous Spirit: 12-16 health per scond for 30 seconds for a total of 360-473 health for 5 energy which is 72-95 health per energy (assumes VS triggers once every 1.33-1.75 seconds)

or replace it with healing seed or any non-enchant healing spell

Orison: 24 health per second (1 sec cast 2 sec recharge) for a total of 73 health for 5 energy which is 15 hlth per energy

replace it with

Dwayna's Kiss: No enchants/hexes 16 health per second (1 sec cast 3 sec recharge) for a total of 63 health for 5 energy which is 13 health per energy
1 enchant/hex 25 health per second for a total of 100 health which is 20 hlth per energy
2 enchants/hexes 34 health per second for a total of 137 health which is 27 hlth per energy
3 enchants/hexes 44 health per second for a total of 174 health which is 35 hlth per energy
4 enchants...

Ehtereal Light 18 health per second (1 c 5r) for a total of 105 health for 5 energy which is 21 hlth per energy (just don't be attacked when casting it)

Healing Whisper 52 health per second (1 c 1r) for a total of 104 health for 5 energy which is 21 hlth per energy

Sig of Rejuv (assuming target is attacking or casting) 13 health per second for a total of 143 health for 0 energy

there are just a few examples without even leaving the healing prayers attribute. If you want to expand into prot I think that Effigy had a good comparison between orison and RoF and Ensign made some good points about not limiting yourself to 2 attribute lines...