Curse

Spura · Dec 07, 2006, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Ok. So we've got a ton of support skills. Some of those are OK but unused primarily cos people currently aren't running builds that would use them to their full potential. Examples of such skills that almost nobody currently uses are Chorus of restoration, energizing chorus, leader's zeal, godspeed. These are not that bad, for instance there was a build with no monks, 2 paragons, bunch of fear me warriors where chorus of restoration was great heal. So I think these are fine, even though they are not used much currently.

On the other hand we have skills that could use a bit of rework in the way they operate to make them more attractive to use. IMO having several money skills in one attribute line is a good thing, you are already limited by 8 slots. Like with assassin there are so many skills I'd like to have in my skill bar it's a hard choice what to leave out. Paragon builds, on the other hand, usually go into 4 attributes (command,leadership, motivation, spear) to make a build where all skills on the bar are well used and well aligned with a build.

So here's some suggestions, if even one of them gets into next balance update, then I'll be quite happy.

"Brace Yourself!"

Well here I'd love to see "other ally" changed into "ally". It is a disappointment when you see the KD coming but can't protect yourself. And usually the paragon has the most time of all players to watch over battlefield. As far as balance goes, I see 2 things that would change. First of all a warrior could use it with Desperate Strike + copy to get extra damage. Well that isn't that much of an issue I think, if they want to invest heavily into tactics and command for this combo then they should have some kind of return. I mean, those same points could have easily gone into something else that would add damage to their attacks.
Other concern would be monks using it to prevent KDs on themselves. Well since most monks usually use sword + shield anyway, they could've just as easily used Deadly riposte or Shield Bash to protect against KD attack(and other attacks too), besides I don't think monks would trade this over assassin secondary.

"Can't touch this!"

IMO this should be at least changed to "target ally" to make it a decent support skill. Other change I suggested many times would be to make, instead of touch failing, touch skills cast longer. Would nerf shock less, and generally affect all touch skills equally. Right now cheap ones are nerfed less by it than expensive ones(try using headbutt with warrior on someone with this skill).

"Help Me!"

Well this is one of the skills that currently nobody has a valid use for. I think it should be reworked so that instead of 50% faster cast it offered 15%..33% stronger heal on the shout user or something along this line. This would make it a more viable choice(btw for similar skill look at life attunement).

"Never Surrender!" "Never Give Up!"

Perhaps these 2 would be better off with "For 10 sec, the next time an ally drops below 75% HP (or 50% for balance), that ally gains X energy"
This would make them more straightforward to use. In any decent fight with monks involved it is hard to use them with health bars jumping up and down all the time.

Bladeturn Refrain

Well, I'm fresh out of ideas here, but currently it is a very specific bonus and one that is easy to circumvent in pvp by switching to elemental weapon(which practically any good pvp player carries).

Song of Concentration

Here's a skill that currently has exactly one use: ensuring an ultra-important NPC skill is cast. You need that once per match so it doesn't make much difference if it costs 6 or 12 adrenaline, when ghostly is gonna cap I'll surely have enough adren. So without any damage to balance in HA, I think this could have numbers changed so it recharges more often, like 6A no time recharge. Perhaps then it would be used often enough in one match to make a difference for other things than ghostly as well.

Angelic Protection

This skill is a nice idea but too many limitations. The first change I'd love to see would be changing "target other ally" to "target ally". Again silly when you see damage coming your way but can't help it. Was anet afraid of paragon solo farm? In that regard this skill is weaker than Shield of Absobtion or protective spirit. The second change I'd suggest would be changing recharge to 12 sec. With the usual levels of leadership(10-12) this would enable to keep DPS on a target of choice down to 150-130, which IMO isn't too powerful, 130 DPS isn't something you wanna keep taking for any extended period of time. Even at 16 leadership, down to 90 DPS it isn't that powerful, when you compare it to other means of relieving pressure available like Shield of Absorption, Prot Spirit, block enchantments etc. Recharge could be tweaked to balance, but it would make a niche for this skill.
Also would enable a decent combo with Angelic bond

Defensive Anthem

Not much to say there. It ends on warriors and other such characters, 5 sec longer recharge than aegis, can't be extended for 20% using a weapon mod are all downsides compared to aegis, it's upside is that it can't be removed. Is that worth elite status? Seems like anet was scraping for elites after first nightfall pvp preview weekend. They elitized bunch of normal skills, and while some of those like crippling anthem had their adrenaline cost halved, I doubt defensive anthem was changed in any way. And it shows.

Well, no ideas here but could sure use some change. Not sure what that would be.

Enduring Harmony

Not much wrong with skill as such, but I can't seem to find something to combo it with, that would warrant taking up a slot. At current recharge you can only keep it on 4 people, and the candidates for prolonging are few. Incoming, defensive anthem, stand your ground. Return is dubious for the time and energy and skill slot spent. Perhaps longer duration of echo is needed, but one thing is certain: When most shouts/chants don't last their full duration or don't have duration at all, a skill that reduced recharge of shouts for even 15% would work well will most shouts and as such be way way more powerful that 50% extended duration which only benefits a very small group of skills. I hope someone has a great idea for this one.

Focused Anger

Ok this is a great skill, I am mentioning it just to mention a bug. The cap to adren gain(max 100% extra adren) shouldn't affect single skill like Focused anger but it does. For instance @ 16 leadership = 160% extra gain, the skill should charge 5 adren skill like Penetrating Chop in 2 hits but doesn't. Like Mind Freeze breaks 66% slowdown stack cap and Lingering curse breaks the reduced healing stack cap, so should this skill.

Hexbreaker aria

IMO this should be hexbreaker song(triggers on next skill instead of next spell), cast changed to 2 sec to compensate. Currently in pvp the hexes that usually casters experience will expire on cast anyway, Diversion, Shame, so this skill isn't truly useful.

Natural Temper

The problem with this skill is rounding, because a true 4 adrenaline skill like "Go for the Eyes!" (100 points) doesn't charge in 3 hits. 3 x 33% = 99% just a bit short of another adrenaline strike. I think the % should be increased(like 35%) so "Go for the Eyes!" does charge in 3 hits. It's a shame this skill is gimped like that.

Lyric of Purification

Recharge is too long IMO.

Song of Power

Ok this skill is officially used by nobody. The only use I've ever heard of is when someone said this could be used to recover ele energy in pve after killing the mob. Well I'd just rather take another skill instead, besides in pvp this has no use. I'd love to hear suggestions for this one.

"It's just a flesh wound!"

I tried this skill, played with it several days and it is just terrible. The difference with RC is that unless there is some urgent condition like daze, you only need to fire RC off sparingly and the heal from it removes all damage the conditions did. With this shout, you have to spam it like crazy and it just stops current condition but doesn't undo the damage like RC. Also on paragon it costs 4 energy cos it is single target and paragon has 2 pips of regen. It runs you out of energy really really quickly. Also the DW on the caster really isn't helping its case.

It could be changed so it removed 1 condition from all allies in the area or nearby allies(whichever is more balanced), centered on the paragon(kinda like extinguish but less range and more spammable).

Whole Spearmastery

Just too much too similar skills IMO. I especially dislike Spear of Envy as I dislike all abilities that only work on enemies with more HP than you.

Signet of Aggression

I have no ideas here either, but this could use a change.

Wel, discuss, add your own, etc...
There are several other skills where I am not jumping with glee at the thought of using them, a lot of them elite like: "Its just a flesh wound", "The power is yours" Anthem of Fury, Awe, Burning Refrain, Soldier's Fury(because of aggressive refrain), Cautery signet, Crippling Anthem but those don't bother me as much...

If I had to choose which changes I'd want the most, then the most urgent to me seem: Angelic Protection, "Can't touch this", "Help Me!". These skills currently see no play and IMHO could be vastly improved with redesign. Also Focused anger bug is annoying.

Stemnin · Dec 07, 2006, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Should be moved to Sardelac. I haven't played paragon yet, so I have no suggestions, other than helping me realise which skills not to get lol.

oinkers · Dec 07, 2006, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

Ok. So we've got a ton of support skills. Some of those are OK but unused primarily cos people currently aren't running builds that would use them to their full potential.

THANK YOU for discussing this. I think the observation of which skills almost nobody currently uses is largely true, but needs to also mention all the Lyric of XXXX skills - being conditional on shouts or signets isn't very useful at all.

As you've already alluded to, the main problem is the distribution of skills across lines, making paragons having a 3 point spread more common instead of say, fire ele nukers having 16+13 in fire/energy which results in a more focused build. Putting 12 here and 11 there across a 3 or 4 point spread is going to make a mediocre build.

All the spells you've mentioned are beyond saving, I think - it's structural, nothing todo with the individual skills themselves. But there is one that will make Paragons indispensible if the condition harming its use is changed or reworked.

All we need is Song of Power to be reworked to be N seconds long unconditionally.

Keilious Ahruhk · Dec 08, 2006, 09:19 AM // 09:19

In PvE Bladeturn Refrain and the "Never-!" skills are fairly okay, I think there are bigger fish to fry at the moment...
Also, I've found that Natural temper DOES accelerate the charging of WY! and GftE! every now and then. It seems against the raw mechanics of the game, but then again Adrenalin is a fairly vague system anyway.

As for song of power, how about this?:

For 0..2 seconds, all party members gain +3 energy regen. For 0..8 seconds, all party members gain +2 regen, this second effect ends when an ally uses a skill.

This way, you're giving every party member an additional two energy for sure. Then on top of that, they gain gain some handy extra bonus if they're "resting"

Oh, also, Soldier's Fury is currently one of the only good PvE elites because it offers 8% more attack speed than aggressive refrain. But even then, you have to renew it all the damn time. So maybe make Soldier's fury an echo like AR, or something? Extend its duration? Its just annoying to be casting it.
But bleh, as I said before, there are far, far worse skills than ones like this anyway.

Edit: Oh! Also, "The Power is Yours!" just make this give all allies +0..1 energy regen instead of the raw energy gain, make the duration overlap with the recharge by a tinsy bit at a high motivation, and lower the cost to 5, that would, IMO, make it worth using.

Spura · Dec 08, 2006, 05:23 PM // 17:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk

In PvE Bladeturn Refrain and the "Never-!" skills are fairly okay, I think there are bigger fish to fry at the moment...

I agree that some skills need redesign a lot more badly than others, and I have pointed out some that really need it. I decided to just list all of them, and some of them aren't that urgent.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk

Also, I've found that Natural temper DOES accelerate the charging of WY! and GftE! every now and then. It seems against the raw mechanics of the game, but then again Adrenalin is a fairly vague system anyway.

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Adrenaline
This is a required reading before discussing anything adrenaline related.
As you can see WY! is a 80 point skill and as such will get charged in 3 hits under natural temper, but GTFE is a 100 point skill and will not.
33% bonus will add 8 points to 25 points each strike. So 3 strikes put you just at 99 points. At that point you either need another hit to charge GTFE or take 1% of total HP worth of damage. 1% sounds easy but it isn't when nobody is attacking you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk

As for song of power, how about this?:

For 0..2 seconds, all party members gain +3 energy regen. For 0..8 seconds, all party members gain +2 regen, this second effect ends when an ally uses a skill.

This way, you're giving every party member an additional two energy for sure. Then on top of that, they gain gain some handy extra bonus if they're "resting"

The whole resting is thinking in wrong direction IMO, and I wouldn't take this skill to boost ally energy by 2. I'd rather take energizing finale over it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keilious Ahruhk

Oh, also, Soldier's Fury is currently one of the only good PvE elites because it offers 8% more attack speed than aggressive refrain.

Yes but 8% more to be an elite? Not worth it IMO.

I've also added "It's just a flesh wound" because it is just terrible, and changed Defensive anthem to explain why this skill is strictly worse than Incoming!.

Keilious Ahruhk · Dec 08, 2006, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Adrenaline
This is a required reading before discussing anything adrenaline related.
As you can see WY! is a 80 point skill and as such will get charged in 3 hits under natural temper, but GTFE is a 100 point skill and will not.
33% bonus will add 8 points to 25 points each strike. So 3 strikes put you just at 99 points. At that point you either need another hit to charge GTFE or take 1% of total HP worth of damage. 1% sounds easy but it isn't when nobody is attacking you.

Oh okay, I was taking damage at the time, that would explain it, thanks for clearing that up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

The whole resting is thinking in wrong direction IMO, and I wouldn't take this skill to boost ally energy by 2. I'd rather take energizing finale over it.

Hmm, but the fact is that you can use energizing finale and song of power, that would have to be factored into the balancing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

Yes but 8% more to be an elite? Not worth it IMO.

Scythe:
00% IAS = 1.750 seconds = 34.3 Attacks/Minute
25% IAS = 1.313 seconds = 45.7 Attacks/Minute
33% IAS = 1.155 seconds = 51.9 Attacks/Minute
Yeah, not that much of a difference, but it makes stuff look angrier and faster, so I'll keep packing it until a better elite comes my way. :P

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

I've also added "It's just a flesh wound" because it is just terrible, and changed Defensive anthem to explain why this skill is strictly worse than Incoming!.

People will tell you "IJaFW." is good because it can't be interrupted etc etc, but I agree, terrible skill, just pack cautery signet if you must remove stacks of conditions.

Defensive Anthem is bad on hilarious levels. Its Aegis. Shorter Duration. Elite. Ends when its actually needed.
All they'd have to do is make it 15/2/30 like aegis, and remove the extra negative descriptor, and then it would actually be like an elite version of aegis worth using.

Spura · Dec 09, 2006, 02:07 PM // 14:07

Don't forget aegis has 20% bonus duration with enchanting mod. Anyway my edited first post explains how Incoming totally owns Defensive Anthem.

As for soldier\s fury, lack of good eelites may lead you to taking this skill, but remember there are always secondary profession elites to choose from. Personally I like taking elite hex or condition removal from mesmer or monk profession.

Keilious Ahruhk · Dec 10, 2006, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

As for soldier\s fury, lack of good eelites may lead you to taking this skill, but remember there are always secondary profession elites to choose from. Personally I like taking elite hex or condition removal from mesmer or monk profession.

Quite true, but I'm running a P/D as it stands, and the two Scythe elites don't particularly tickle my fancy.
But yeah, if I go back to my paragon, and run something else, I'll be sure to pick up something like expel hexes, or similar useful secondary-prof goodies.