Curse

Darkpower Alchemist · Jan 06, 2007, 08:36 AM // 08:36

Why read the wind, when you could use Kindle arrow for higher damage? You could decrease expertise and command to 9, marksmanship to 15, and place those points in WS for kindle.

Also, a touch off topic, but wouldn't the kill be more effecient at this point in the meta to stick to ranger strengths by adding a couple variations to builds in this particular spike?

For example, 1 ranger run a Burning Arrow Variation of the spike build. Savage+Kindle can spike just as well as Punishing, and with burning causing degen, you have a serious degen/damage hit occuring. 2 rangers could run the original build, making for more than enough damage/interupts between the 2 in the since of pure damage dealt.

The last ranger(4 man spike team) can be a degen ranger with a second variation of the Original build, using Apply and the Punishing/Savage build that was originally brought into play and discussion.

What I'm suggesting is that instead of just bringing a normal spike bring a degen spike build. I think you would find it more effective against coordinated teams by making them do more than just catch the spike.

jesh · Jan 06, 2007, 08:47 AM // 08:47

Burning Arrow doesn't have a half second cast time, or interrupt. Kindle doesn't make your arrows fly faster.

XvArchonvX · Jan 06, 2007, 09:12 AM // 09:12

Running degen in a spike team is really not a good idea. The whole point of a spike is to deal sudden damage before the monk can react. Degen in this type of attack is completely pointless. If you want to kill someone by causing more damage than the monk can heal (i.e. pressure), then spike skills are better replaced by spammable skills.

Burning Arrow cannot spike as well as Punishing because Punishing can be used with Dual Shot or Forked Arrow and deal all damage at the same time when timed properly. Burning Arrow is simply too slow for ranger spike and even if a savage shot followup was used, it would be too little to make up for the damage list from not using Punishing. Also, the burning condition from Burning Arrow is completely useless in a Ranger Spike build since the spike should kill the target before there is a chance for any degen to take place. If it doesn't then the extra degen means nothing since it won't be enough to counter the healing that the target will get after the monks can react. Meladru's Shot would deal more damage and Prepared Shot would make the build more stable in terms of energy if needed.

With all this said, I still don't know if Ranger Spike will ever be enough to become as strong as it used to be, even with the new skills and possibilities. However, I'd like to be proven wrong.

Darkpower Alchemist · Jan 06, 2007, 09:37 AM // 09:37

[skill=big]Burning Arrow[/skill]

[skill=big]Punishing Shot[/skill]

At Markmanship of 16, BA hits harder, recharges faster and is instantaneous. People who believe that punishing is better in a spike are dreaming. Since this forum is so stats driven, read the stats. You don't have to agree with my thought on kindle for reasons of a faster moving arrow by using RtW. I can understand that, as well as the total concept of "Spikes" or "Spiking", but the stats clearly show that punishing is inferior to burning arrow.

Also, a BA+Savage combo while under a Kindle prep will certainly do major spike damage against even the hardest targets. Going for total spike at this point where even smiting skills can deter a spike build from killing a target makes for a need for a change in conventional thinking. Play wack a monk all you want, but in the end, I'd rather have a mix of spike and pressure over a pure spike any day.

Sir Mad · Jan 06, 2007, 02:22 PM // 14:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

I'd rather have a mix of spike and pressure over a pure spike any day.

The point of a ranger spike is both to deal the maximum of damage as fast as possible, and to completely shut down your target. Yes Burning Arrow deals more damage than PunShot, but I'm sure you haven't forgotten PunShot is also an interrupt. Not to mention PunShot can be fired immediately, while Burning Arrow is fired as any normal attack. This 2.6 seconds advantage of PunShot is a lot in a spike.

Darkpower Alchemist · Jan 06, 2007, 03:09 PM // 15:09

I understand the speed talk, but in action the use of BA on 1 ranger in a 4 man team while the other 3 use PS can be even better for the overall spike,imo, but that's my opinion.

Do as you wish in the end, for I just made a suggestion, and that is all it is. When the WoH monk or B Light monk saves the target and keeps it moving, none of it will matter anyway. Also, with every monk using Protective Spirit and Shield of Absorption in 1 way or another, the spike dream is very limited without added pressure.

But, please, I don't intend to throw this thread off. Talk more of spike builds.

some guy · Jan 06, 2007, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

I understand the speed talk, but in action the use of BA on 1 ranger in a 4 man team while the other 3 use PS can be even better for the overall spike,imo, but that's my opinion.

Do as you wish in the end, for I just made a suggestion, and that is all it is. When the WoH monk or B Light monk saves the target and keeps it moving, none of it will matter anyway. Also, with every monk using Protective Spirit and Shield of Absorption in 1 way or another, the spike dream is very limited without added pressure.

But, please, I don't intend to throw this thread off. Talk more of spike builds.

That is a good suggestion, 1 BA and 3 PS will do nicely.

lilnate22 · Jan 06, 2007, 09:02 PM // 21:02

is keen arrow even a good skill?? sry im not realy good w/ ranger skills

it seems good since ur doin 100sum dmg..

XvArchonvX · Jan 07, 2007, 12:53 AM // 00:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

I understand the speed talk, but in action the use of BA on 1 ranger in a 4 man team while the other 3 use PS can be even better for the overall spike,imo, but that's my opinion.

In a spike build, where kills are either executed in one or two seconds or not at all, what does 5 seconds of burning matter? I can understand wanting to have someone that can deal a heavy shot of damage, but Melandru's Arrow would fill this role better imo.

Do as you wish in the end, for I just made a suggestion, and that is all it is. When the WoH monk or B Light monk saves the target and keeps it moving, none of it will matter anyway. Also, with every monk using Protective Spirit and Shield of Absorption in 1 way or another, the spike dream is very limited without added pressure.[/QUOTE]

A good ranger spike will kill an opponent before most monks can cast Blight or WoH. This is why teams sometimes run with monks packing Infuse Health. However, with skills like Shadow Shroud, the real spike counter is "Incoming", not monk enchantments. With this being said, Ranger spike has been dead for a long time and I agree that there are still too many good counters to allow this to make a comeback.

jesh · Jan 07, 2007, 09:18 AM // 09:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

At Markmanship of 16, BA hits harder, recharges faster and is instantaneous.

When it says 0, that doesn't mean it's an instant cast. That means it has the same cast time as a regular attack skill. Punishing Shot is faster. You don't need 7 degen if your target is dead.

[skill=big]Executioner's Strike[/skill]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lilnate22

is keen arrow even a good skill?? sry im not realy good w/ ranger skills

it seems good since ur doin 100sum dmg..

Keen Arrow is a very nice skill. It has a low energy cost, and a very nice bonus, which is easily fulfilled in this build due to the use of "Go For The Eyes!" and high weapon mastery. At 16 marksman, Keen Arrow has a potential damage addition of 16+21=37. The only 2 other skills that powerful, to my knowledge, are Melandru's Shot and Marauder's Shot.

Darkpower Alchemist · Jan 07, 2007, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Punishing Shot is only as effective as the skill placed ahead of it, as is the case when using Savage shot. The two aren't needed on all 4 rangers. That is my real point, since the spike has many counters anyway.

Also,what's up with executioner's strike on the above post?

XvArchonvX · Jan 08, 2007, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkpower Alchemist

Also,what's up with executioner's strike on the above post?

I believe it was used as an example of an attack skill that had a 0 cast time listed, but still had a delayed activation limited by attack speed.

mathijn · Jan 08, 2007, 07:41 AM // 07:41

a good spike team, can kill a target within 1 sec.
if you use BA, you slow that down.

Darkpower Alchemist · Jan 10, 2007, 01:37 AM // 01:37

A spike attack is more timing than just fast attacks alone. If you all dump at once and the monk casts protective spirit or now SoA, that guy is saved, no matter how fast you are with the spike.

Remember,SoA gets better with the more hits you land.