Curse

Munanko Roha · Dec 14, 2006, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Leprechaun

Use
PvE

Not so many kiters or Blackout users in PvE...

Nexus Icon · Dec 14, 2006, 04:00 PM // 16:00

Who Thomas, me?
If so, note that there's a more PvP friendly version of my build with Frenzy instead of Flail.
If it's Leprechaun, I think he's mainly looking at PvE where kiting isn't so much of an issue.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 14, 2006, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Flail is amazing in pve, it's the best IAS there.

There are multiple issues with it that make it unusable in pvp though.

The Main issue with the build is rage of the ntoukule (yeah, I misspelled it). It disables skills for 5 seconds, meaning you can't build those skills back up for 5 seconds at all. I'd take it out for something else to be honest...though it's a lot better than battle rage.

A Leprechaun · Dec 14, 2006, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Are you talking about my build thomas? If you are then you are a poor reader as my post clearly states that it is for PvE.

And Nexus ok so you lose all adrenaline from hammer bash then you do RotN so you have full adrenaline ... why not just use hammer bash again instead of use staggering + heavy or why not just use those two in the first place ^^. I'm sorry I have commented before I have tryed so I will do that now and report back.

~A Leprechaun~

Nexus Icon · Dec 14, 2006, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Good thinking, I was only putting Staggering and Heavy in there to fill the bar.
Belly Smash & Crushing Blow make damn fine additions, adding some nice killing power and protection.

Edit: yup, further testing confirms that this is a damn effective build:

Gladiator's Armour, Stonefist Gauntlets
16 Hammer
13 Strength

Enraging Charge
Flail
Counter Blow
Hammer Bash
Rage of the Ntouka
Belly Smash
Crushing Blow
Res

Keeps them on the floor and inflicts a LOT of hurt

A Leprechaun · Dec 14, 2006, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Going back to my first build i would say sub in mokele smash instead of belly smash as I dont think belly smash would be that useful whereas mokele smash would help to gain adrenaline faster. Also I know you want loads of KDs but counter blow being only 4 adrenaline is wasting the 6 adrenaline gained from RotN so then if you sub that for a high adrenaline attack skill, but then you have basicly my starting build ^^ .

~A Leprechaun~

jesh · Dec 14, 2006, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

If you've got 13 strength, I see no point in Dreadnought's armour when you could have Sentinel's.

As for there being too much downtime on Dragon Slash, that really made me chuckle.
That's what "For Great Justice!", Sun & Moon Slash and Enraging Charge are for

And what's the recharge on FGJ again?

I really think that this elite could be put to better use with a sword warrior and Final Thrust. Maybe you should look in that direction.

Nexus Icon · Dec 15, 2006, 12:12 AM // 00:12

You're making the mistake of ignoring the adrenaline generating benfits of Enraging Charge.
Don't just view it as a speed boost, view it as a way to generate 4 adrenaline (6 under "FGJ!").
Same goes for Sun & Moon.
My Slasher build maybe has periods of 2 non-attack skills in 6 when "FGJ!" isn't active.
And when "FGJ!" is active, I can completely bypass Sun & Moon and just go Standing Slash -> Silverwing Slash -> Dragon Slash -> repeat.

But this discussion is for another thread; this thread should all be about Leprechaun's build and the unrealised potential of Rage of the Ntouka

Thom Bangalter · Dec 15, 2006, 02:38 AM // 02:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by A Leprechaun

Are you talking about my build thomas? If you are then you are a poor reader as my post clearly states that it is for PvE.

And Nexus ok so you lose all adrenaline from hammer bash then you do RotN so you have full adrenaline ... why not just use hammer bash again instead of use staggering + heavy or why not just use those two in the first place ^^. I'm sorry I have commented before I have tryed so I will do that now and report back.

~A Leprechaun~

No, I can read it, just making a general observation in regards to Thomas's post.

However,

Quote:

But this discussion is for another thread; this thread should all be about Leprechaun's build and the unrealised potential of Rage of the Ntouka

There is no unrealized potential, it disables skills for 5 seconds, meaning it takes you even longer to gain adrenaline.

The build already contains enraging charge and flail, which should give you gobs of adrenaline already. Rage of the Ntouka seems to just hinder the build, when you could add something fun like backbreaker to use that adrenaline. Also, enraged charge+dev hammer is really fun.

Nexus Icon · Dec 15, 2006, 07:37 AM // 07:37

Thom, believe me, there is no problem whatsoever with skills being disabled for 6 secs by Rage of the Ntouka with these builds. Again, try it before criticising it.

jesh · Dec 15, 2006, 07:41 AM // 07:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

You're making the mistake of ignoring the adrenaline generating benfits of Enraging Charge.

I've written more than one post stating just that. It has a 20 second recharge, you know.
You can take other adrenaline gaining skills like To The Limit! and what not, but it gets to the point where the focus of your build is hardly Dragon Slash anymore. When I got there, I asked myself a question. And that question was, "Why the hell am I using Dragon Slash? I could have Final Thrust on my bar."
So I stopped using it.

As far as the skill Rage of the Ntouka goes - I totally was misunderstanding the skill description, it seems.
I was thinking that your adrenaline skills *charge up* for 5 seconds, even if you don't have the energy to fill them. Which is why I suggested Final Thrust...
If it's *disabling* instead of this, then .. well I don't see that much point to it, but hey I could be wrong.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 15, 2006, 08:05 AM // 08:05

Actually, there's a big problem with it. Because it DISABLES ADRENALINE SKILLS, it makes it longer to gain re-gain that adrenaline. You gain gobs of adrenaline using enraging charge and For Great Justice. After you use rage, and then use a skill, it gets blacked out, meaning it's 5 seconds before you can gain ANY adrenaline again on that skill. You effectively gimp your bar, because after using rage and then any single one of your attack skills, you have to wait before using it again, making the other adrenaline skills like enraging and fgj completely useless. it's the same concept as Primal Rage, and that skill sucks too.

Nexus Icon · Dec 15, 2006, 08:13 AM // 08:13

jesh, I really want you to try my sword slasher build. Hopefully that would enlighten you.
Honestly, "FGJ!" is a nice bonus, but this works pretty damn well without it. Hopefully then you'll realise why everybody raves about Dragon Slash:

"FGJ!"
Enraging Charge
Flail
Standing Slash
Silverwing Slash
Sun & Moon Slash
Dragon Slash
Res

Use Enraging Charge to engage.
Just before the first hit lands, activate "FGJ!".
This charges pretty much your whole bar, so the next skill should be Flail.
Then Standing Slash.
Silverwing next.
Straight into Dragon Slash, then back to Standing Slash.
Repeat the "Standing Slash -> Galrath/Silverwing Slash -> Dragon Slash" cycle until target is dead or "FGJ!" ends.
When "FGJ!" ends, start adding Sun & Moon Slash to the mix, along with Enraging Charge to generate more adrenaline. Honestly, there will only be 2-3 swings that are not skill swings.
That should get you around nicely to another round of "FGJ!" enhanced slashing.
And to be frank, there's not much in PvE that survives this kind of onslaught long enough for it to be an issue.

Nexus Icon · Dec 15, 2006, 08:14 AM // 08:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

Actually, there's a big problem with it. Because it DISABLES ADRENALINE SKILLS, it makes it longer to gain re-gain that adrenaline. You gain gobs of adrenaline using enraging charge and For Great Justice. After you use rage, and then use a skill, it gets blacked out, meaning it's 5 seconds before you can gain ANY adrenaline again on that skill. You effectively gimp your bar, because after using rage and then any single one of your attack skills, you have to wait before using it again, making the other adrenaline skills like enraging and fgj completely useless. it's the same concept as Primal Rage, and that skill sucks too.

Oh for God's sake Thom, just try the damn build. IT REALLY ISN'T AN ISSUE.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 15, 2006, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

Oh for God's sake Thom, just try the damn build. IT REALLY ISN'T AN ISSUE.

I did. Flail already starts to eat into your adrenaline gain, but as long as FGJ is up it becomes a non issue. FGJ+enraging charge is absolutely incredible to gain adrenaline, but Rage of the Ntouku, when unleashing your adrenaline skills, becomes a huge hindrance. There's too much of a delay before you gain adrenaline again, making Rage of the Ntoku pretty decent for quickly gaining adrenaline to unload a spike, but unbearable when used consistently. Furthermore, it used in conjunction with a skill that causes 'lose all adrenaline' is problematic--you already struggle to regain everything you've lost, and having your skills disabled enhances this.

As I already posted, enraging charge+fgj is incredible, Rage of the Ntokou actually detracts from this. I also don't like flail on Dragon Slash, because all I want is for that skill to light up, and flail makes it take longer to get this done--In pve it's less of an issue because the alternatives are hard to work around (you can't really use enraging as a cancel to frenzy because you usually want to use it on recharge and flurry is, well, flurry) so it becomes a desirable IAS that you can spam to your heart's content with only a couple slight drawbacks that are far less obvious in groups.

On a side note, the Dragon Slash build Nexus posted is a ton of fun. I still have issues with flail there because you get to a point where you're just alternating between sun+moon and d slash and hitting flail becomes a conflict with me...do I want to IAS or just spam these two skills until FGJ wears off? I opt for the latter.

Nexus Icon · Dec 15, 2006, 08:43 AM // 08:43

Wait, "FGJ!"?
You're trying Leprechaun's build, not mine?
Try mine, where the focus is knockdown.
The idea is to keep them on the floor for as long as possible allowing skills to regenerate more reliably.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 15, 2006, 08:50 AM // 08:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nexus Icon

Wait, "FGJ!"?
You're trying Leprechaun's build, not mine?
Try mine, where the focus is knockdown.
The idea is to keep them on the floor for as long as possible allowing skills to regenerate more reliably.

I was referring to your dragon slash build. I find bull's strike+dev hammer+crushing+hammer bash to work just fine for a pretty solid knocklock, if you get the timing down.

I also have issues with Hammers in pve.

LightningHell · Dec 15, 2006, 10:04 AM // 10:04

Being Blackouted in PvP is annoying enough, I don't want to have self-induced blackouts.

Sure, you might get that first hit quicker, but you get that second hit eons afterwards.

A Leprechaun · Dec 15, 2006, 10:10 AM // 10:10

lol, wow this is confusing
ok
@ Nexus ~ My build doesnt have FGJ in, but it does have the amazing enraging charge that you keep going on about for me to put in. o.O

@Thom ~ The 5 second cooldown works fine- Mokele+enraging -> attacks -> RotN ->wait 5 seconds -> first 2 skills are now recharged-> start again.

@Jesh ~ Yes i was thinking of doing a sword version useing final thrust but i did the hammer version because then you can have mokele smash which is a big part of this build too, but i will come up with one soonish if you would like.

@LightningHell ~ Why is the second hit eons after?!?!

Oh and guys i despise dragon slashers so please dont turn this into a dragon slash discussion thread.

~A Leprechaun~

Nexus Icon · Dec 15, 2006, 11:02 AM // 11:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

I was referring to your dragon slash build. I find bull's strike+dev hammer+crushing+hammer bash to work just fine for a pretty solid knocklock, if you get the timing down.

I also have issues with Hammers in pve.

Agree with you there, hammers are nowhere near as useful in PvE.
Trying to come up with a viable PvE hammer build always has me scratching my noggin, and I usually end up saying "Sod it, too much like hard work".
I'll keep trying though, as I've farmed a few Igneous Mauls, and they're a lovely hammer. They look like they really mean business