Curse

getalifebud · Dec 02, 2006, 12:45 PM // 12:45

Yeah I always go for defense mods, cheaper and more effective. Also for ritualists, the emergency healing of generous was tsungrai (I think? sac hp and get a boost in HP, and mega healing when you drop his ashes) does more damage as putting away your staff loses you 30hp.

Thomas.knbk · Dec 02, 2006, 01:15 PM // 13:15

A lot of people say that a HP mod is useful at the start of the battle, but once you've taken 30 dmg you might as well have nothing equipped. This is obviously flawed logic, because if you'd have had another mod you'd still be 30HP lower than you'd be with your fortitude mod. Also, when you get a heal from your monk (rare in PvE, but it does happen) and are brought back to full health you're having the full benefit of your +30 mod again.
361 armor affected damage, you say. Think of how long it's gonna take to get that much dmg in PvE, and how often your monk overheals you for at least 30HP. You'll see that you'd get +30HP with your health mod far more often than you'll get 361 armor affected dmg. I've been in a lot of situations where I was brought down to exactly 1HP.
Let's look at a typical adrenaline spike.
Eviscerate, Executioner's strike, Sever Artery, Gash, Final, caster assistance from Energy Burn and Spiritual Pain.
+dmg from attack skills is armor ignoring, so that's 33 +deep wound (=100)+42+21+86 armor ignoring dmg from the warriors, and 80+90 from the mesmer.
That means out of the about 600 dmg the spike has, a whopping 452 is armor ignoring and only 148 is armor affected. As you can see, a +HP mod is of much mroe use here than a +%AL mod. After the spike you're brought up to full HP again, so you get the full benefit of your +HP mod again. In PvE, the same thing takes place. More dmg is armor ignoring than you think. 5 armor is not going to help you against hexes or conditions.
Maybe the fact that getting rich in GW is the easyst thing in the world helps with peopel buying things for 30K

Keo Sabriel · Dec 03, 2006, 05:11 PM // 17:11

Isn't this just a case of 'Look at me with my expensive gear'??

I run a sup vig & sup abs on my Warrior since the extra health can save you when tanking but I often run my Necro with 2 sups at ~375HP. My Monk sits at 400ish and my Dervish at over 500.

The thing is that I know I can protect myself as a Monk or a Necro while a Warrior takes it in the face and (in a team) has to rely on others to heal them, if I get spiked in either PvP or PvE chances are that spike is going to be in excess of 600 dmg to be sure of a kill and I'm going down whatever.

Many people especialy newbies play with the idea that bigger is better...I mean who stated Monking by thinking 'The bigger I can heal the better Monk I am'? I know I did and it wasn't until I started using Prot that I discovered prevention is better than cure.

In a nutshell I believe that experienced players will prevent the dmg through skills whilst younger players will try an take it head on. However there are times when changing to a +30 weap or my Scareater has saved my ass!

^_^

Enko · Dec 03, 2006, 10:45 PM // 22:45

+30 hp mods are more expensive just because they're rarer. completely disregarding which is more effective (though in my opinion +5 armor is), its just that max hp mods are rarer than max armor mods.

HP mods can be +10-30 hp (usually at least +27 on lvl 20 items).
Armor mods can be +1-5 AL (usually +4-5 on lvl 20 items).

rarer things cost more and its a lot rarer to see a +30 hp mod than a +5 armor mod. its the same reason why 20/20 sundering mods are so overpriced when usually another mod is more effective anyways.

Eclair · Dec 04, 2006, 01:31 AM // 01:31

I haven't really tested this, but from my experience, monsters target not only based on class, but also based on hp. At 635 hp, my monk rarely gets targetted in PvE, even when I'm smack in the middle of the aggro. They always go for either my Zhed (< 500 hp, or Olias, who usually has lower health due to sacrifices). If I bring a monk hero, they usually get targetted first.

Maybe something to think about.

shardfenix · Dec 04, 2006, 10:55 PM // 22:55

5 armor is ~4.5% damage reduction. Let's assume you're wearing a sup vigor rune and no other runes. You have 530 Health. 4.5% of that is 23.8 health, not as good as a health mod.

Effigy · Dec 05, 2006, 01:47 AM // 01:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

5 armor is ~4.5% damage reduction. Let's assume you're wearing a sup vigor rune and no other runes. You have 530 Health. 4.5% of that is 23.8 health, not as good as a health mod.

The thing, you will be getting healed which means that, over time, you'll end up taking a lot more than 530 damage. Thus +armor prevents considerable amount of damage.

Paperfly · Dec 05, 2006, 02:18 AM // 02:18

Quote:

I haven't really tested this, but from my experience, monsters target not only based on class, but also based on hp.

On the contrary, AL counts for an enormous amount when it comes to determining monster aggro.

...I keep a Defensive Staff of Defense on my monk (it's defensive!) for whenever I take aggro from a melee critter. Swap to it and circle-kite, works like a charm. Similarly, my Necro packs Tormentors and a +5 armour sword - between the 75 base AL and the fact that I don't wand, I never, ever take aggro as long as another caster in my party is alive.

pingu666 · Dec 05, 2006, 02:22 AM // 02:22

i tend to prefer +al, but having a high HP set u can pull out would be pretty good too

Dr Strangelove · Dec 05, 2006, 03:04 AM // 03:04

I think of +armor as an energy management tool for the monks. 4.5% less damage due to armor is roughly 4.5% less energy the monk has to spend healing you. This is why almost all monks carry +armor weapons. +health means it takes a tiny bit longer to kill you, and thus gives the monk a bit longer to react and heal you before you're spiked out.

I usually choose +armor on my characters, most of which are squishies, for the same reason I like prot magic over healing magic. Preventing damage is better than throwing a little bit on top.

That being said, if you're expecting spikes, degen teams, or ending up in skirmishes without monk support, you'd be a moron not to bring fortitude.

aB- · Dec 05, 2006, 03:22 AM // 03:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas.knbk

A lot of people say that a HP mod is useful at the start of the battle, but once you've taken 30 dmg you might as well have nothing equipped. This is obviously flawed logic, because if you'd have had another mod you'd still be 30HP lower than you'd be with your fortitude mod. Also, when you get a heal from your monk (rare in PvE, but it does happen) and are brought back to full health you're having the full benefit of your +30 mod again.

Actually, this is wrong. As long as you are over 30 HP with a +30 HP mod, the difference is meaningless. The ONLY time when a +30 HP mod is working is when you are reduced to less than 30 health. Let's say we have two 500 HP characters, but one has a fortitude mod and the other does not. So their actual life is 530HP and 500HP. Now let's say we take 400 damage. One has a life of 130HP, the other 100HP. So far, the fortitude mod has done nothing for the character with it. It's not until their HP is reduce to 30HP and 0HP that the fortitude does anything at all.

"I've been saved so many times by fortitude! I've been at 10 health!"

Don't forget that with an armor mod you probably wouldn't have been at that low of health. The damage negated in a battle can easily account to more than 30.

But the fortitude mod isn't worthless. As stated, armor-ignoring damage and spike damage justify its use. But in PvE, if you feel spike is a threat, your reflexes are pretty slow. Armor-ignoring damage is more of a threat, but it makes up too few attacks in the PvE arsenal that it really isn't worth worrying over.

Enko · Dec 05, 2006, 08:32 PM // 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

5 armor is ~4.5% damage reduction. Let's assume you're wearing a sup vigor rune and no other runes. You have 530 Health. 4.5% of that is 23.8 health, not as good as a health mod.

that's a damage reduction of 23.8 health on the first hit. what about the second and the third? overall, you'll be preventing a lot more damage than 30 hp.

Thomas.knbk · Dec 05, 2006, 09:05 PM // 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by aB-

"I've been saved so many times by fortitude! I've been at 10 health!"

Actually, yes. It happens more often in PvP, but it happens in PvE as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aB-

Don't forget that with an armor mod you probably wouldn't have been at that low of health. The damage negated in a battle can easily account to more than 30.

All the+dmg from attacks is armor ignoring, all mesmer dmg is armor ignoring, all smiting is armor ignoring (xcept zealots), most necro dmg is armor ignoring, some rit dmg is armor ignoring,
Actually, only regular attacks and ele's are not armor ignoring

Quote:

Originally Posted by Enko

that's a damage reduction of 23.8 health on the first hit. what about the second and the third? overall, you'll be preventing a lot more damage than 30 hp.

If the first hit you get strikes for 530 dmg, then yes.

Paperfly · Dec 06, 2006, 09:56 AM // 09:56

Quote:

Actually, this is wrong. As long as you are over 30 HP with a +30 HP mod, the difference is meaningless. The ONLY time when a +30 HP mod is working is when you are reduced to less than 30 health.

There's an old Magic:The Gathering saying that often has to be explained to new players:

"The only point of life that matters is the last one"

Antheus · Dec 06, 2006, 03:13 PM // 15:13

Domain of Anguish changes that. With 430 hits being the norm, going out there with less than 500, or even 550 health is simply asking for trouble.

Of course, you still get casters who will claim that they contribute more with 2 or 3 superior runes, than they would if they sacrificed that one extra attribute point for more health. They die if anything sneezes at them, but hey, their attacks or heals heal for 2-5 points more.

And besides, all mods dropped in price and increased in availability, making money hardly a concern anymore.

Effigy · Dec 06, 2006, 05:51 PM // 17:51

I can't stand it when people run two superior runes. I don't even run one, unless it's on a MM or something like that. Health is just too valuable to squander like like.

Spura · Dec 07, 2006, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by shardfenix

5 armor is ~4.5% damage reduction. Let's assume you're wearing a sup vigor rune and no other runes. You have 530 Health. 4.5% of that is 23.8 health, not as good as a health mod.

Actually it is 8.3% reduction. Using this page:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/calculators/guru_armor.php

And as pointed out, you will be healed many times over the course of battle if you take damage the total amount of HP saved will vastly outdo 30 HP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effigy

I can't stand it when people run two superior runes. I don't even run one, unless it's on a MM or something like that. Health is just too valuable to squander like like.

True. I usually run 1 sup or 2 major. People running several sup runes shouldn't be an argument in HP mod favor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrystalMeep

+HP and +AL both have their place in battle. When faced with degen or armor ignoring damage, I want HP on my armor/weapon. When faced with something my amor can handle, I want more AL. This is why some of us have more than one set of armor. As for the bashing for +energy mods? I find those useful.

True about energy. I want energy on my assassin or dervish. Assassin has problems without +energy when DP causes attack chain to cost more than your whole energy pool.

Some classes like paragon don't really need energy armor for most builds.

About degen. Everybody keeps saying HP mods are better vs degen. Well they don't decrease amount of healing that needs to be done because of degen. They do add a small buffer of HP before your party gets wiped on degen. You have HP total + healing available before you get wiped, and HP mod adds to HP total. But as I have shown here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

2 monks should be able to output 4000 HP of healing or more, and that is thousand or more HP saved with armor mods even when half of damage isn't affected by armor. You'd need something like 90% damage be degen or armor ignoring for HP mods to be better.

You'd need a really really high % of armor ignoring and degen to make armor mods not save you tons of HP.

Also about DoA: All the damage that works with GC/Winter is armor affected, that tells you how much damage there is armor affected. I think for DoA it is more important than elsewhere to not run sup runes and go for armor mods.
I think is true though: If I have to get some HP, I will rather grab a HP weapon mod than grab HP armor insignia. Armor insignia offers 40 HP or 10 AL while X, weapon/offhand offers 30 HP or 5 AL.

Spura · Dec 20, 2006, 02:29 PM // 14:29

Let's see how anet thinks:

Oh lets make green items really good and powerful. How do we do that? Let's put the most expensive mods on them. Result:

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Unique_...28Nightfall%29

Look at suffix colums.
HP mod on nearly all green items. Lol @ anet. Yeah better not give people a choice and variety, let's give them more +30 HP greens, cos it is such joy to kill Malyx and get same stupid stats on an item that we get when we finish factions/nightfall.

gjbrouhard · Dec 22, 2006, 01:07 PM // 13:07

Why not run this equipment set for your caster:

Right hand: Energy +5 spear/sword of defense +5
Left hand: Health +30 focus item with either Attribute +1 or HSR/HCT.

+17 energy (better than +15 max with a staff)
+30 hp AND +5 armor!

The only disadvantage is you do basically no damage with your weapon. Of course, you weren't doing much anyway...

For rangers, dervishes, and assassins (w/ 2 handed weapons), the choice is strict: +5 AL or +30 hp. I think the case is clear that +5 AL is better for anyone who is not trying to avoid a PvP spike and engages in longer fights.

For shield-carrying types: weapon +5 armor, shield +30 hp seems to make the most sense.

As a side-note, extra HP can be a disadvantage for any blood-sacrificing necromancer. The sacrifice is always as % of total, so you sacrifice a greater amount of HP, which makes it harder to heal you...

Ensign · Dec 22, 2006, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

Actually it is 8.3% reduction.

Which translates into 9% more effective hit points against damage that does not ignore armor. For a character with a Superior Vigor and no other HP mods, that translates into an extra 48 HP worth of extra defense against armor respecting damage.

In PvE, virtually every point of damage you will take is armor respecting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

True. I usually run 1 sup or 2 major. People running several sup runes shouldn't be an argument in HP mod favor.

I run double supers (well, super + 2 majors) on my Necromancer regularly in PvE. When I do, I also end up running her with 75 or 80 armor depending on the enchanting part. Extra armor is good enough in PvE that I'll take it even when floating below 400 HP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

If I have to get some HP, I will rather grab a HP weapon mod than grab HP armor insignia. Armor insignia offers 40 HP or 10 AL while X, weapon/offhand offers 30 HP or 5 AL.

For PvE, I agree, you can get some excellent mods on your armor. For PvP, I think you're pretty much locked into health armor, since +health becomes so much more valuable at VoD or with DP. You can always swap back and forth between +armor and +health weapons, even in PvP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spura

Let's see how anet thinks

The man responsible for determining what mods go on green weapons is actually an old friend of mine. We talk pretty regularly and he's always torn three ways - between making items as good as possible, as interesting as possible, and as desirable as possible. Judge how you want, but game companies are selling sugar not nutrition - they give people what they want, not what's good for them.

Peace,
-CxE