Curse

Sarevok Thordin · Oct 09, 2006, 11:36 AM // 11:36

The Scourage skills making the smiting line a interesting line. With scourage enchantment coming in Nightfall, things could get VERY interesting, ironically, against AoE smiters, and boon prots.

Umm, if you really want to try an Smiter build other than the done and dusted AoE smiter. Off the top of my head, an anti-warrior one

Mo/E

Smite (when warrior attacks you) > Shock > Holy Strike > Soulstone Strike > Banish.

Enough to make a warrior crap his pants.

Skuld · Oct 09, 2006, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Or just mildly annoy them

Effigy · Oct 10, 2006, 03:23 PM // 15:23

Single target smite skills have either high cost or high recharge, plus they don't benefit from DF as others have already said. AoE smiting is fairly powerful, but it triggers mob scatter in PvE and is therefore not a great choice.

If you feel the need to deal damage on a primary monk, you should probably reconsider your reasons for playing a monk in the first place.

onerail78 · Oct 12, 2006, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effigy

If you feel the need to deal damage on a primary monk, you should probably reconsider your reasons for playing a monk in the first place.

Perhaps the reason is simply something called fun? Personally, I find it rather boring to only play 'approved' cookie-cutter builds. This is a game, remember?. Games are supposed to be fun. Maybe I just like the idea of a smiting monk or a warrior necro because its different from what everyone, their brother, their sister and their dog is doing.

As for scatter, perhaps you just have not yet learned how to control what direction the enemies are going to scatter to or don't yet know how to pin enemies. Both strategies I know how to use, though I can attest to the fact that alot of people do not.

If you feel the need to play a game for any reason other than to have fun, perhaps you should reconsider your reasons for playing the game in the first place.

Effigy · Oct 12, 2006, 05:39 PM // 17:39

No one is stopping you from playing a smiting monk. If you want to do it, be my guest. However, the fact that it's a "fun" build doesn't make it a highly effective build.

Again, I ask you to consider why you're playing a primary monk if you want to be a primary damage-dealer. Practically any build can be fun if it fits with your playstyle, but monks excel at team support. Trying to play against their strength is not usually going to produce great results, however "fun" it may be. Would it be any less fun to deal damage with an ele? A warrior? A necro? What is it about smiting that makes it more "fun" than these other options?

You also have to consider that you're not playing Guild Wars in a vacuum. Regardless of what you consider to be fun, most people don't consider failing a mission or losing a PvP match to be terribly enjoyable. I have a lot of "fun" playing a monk because I know I am greatly contributing to my team's success, even though I may not be doing any actual damage. I believe this is the best mentality to have when playing a monk, because that is essentially what monks were designed to do.

Of course you can try to nuke with a monk, or tank with an elementalist, or heal with a warrior, but before you attempt to do one of these things you would be wise to stop and ask yourself, "Why?" Unless you play with henchies all the time, your teammates are depending on your contributions in order for the group to succeed. Why do people try to argue that screwing around with unconvential and often subpar builds is more "fun" than playing an effective if more traditional build?

Quid Pro Quo · Oct 12, 2006, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effigy

No one is stopping you from playing a smiting monk. If you want to do it, be my guest. However, the fact that it's a "fun" build doesn't make it a highly effective build.

Again, I ask you to consider why you're playing a primary monk if you want to be a primary damage-dealer.
You also have to consider that you're not playing Guild Wars in a vacuum.

Of course you can try to nuke with a monk, or tank with an elementalist, or heal with a warrior, but before you attempt to do one of these things you would be wise to stop and ask yourself, "Why?" Why do people try to argue that screwing around with unconvential and often subpar builds is more "fun" than playing an effective if more traditional build?

Challenge.

People play builds that aren't considered the best for the challenege.
Anyone can heal with a monk and eventually become good at it but how many people can play a complex build that isn't considered the best and beat the game with it?

I have a smiting monk in my guild who does extremely well. Its not because he just has a good build but because he has learned how to play and has enough skill to do very well.

Effigy · Oct 12, 2006, 10:55 PM // 22:55

If you're looking for a challenge, look no further than PvP. Even if you're using an optimal, tried-and-true build, the challenges are neverending. To me this makes more sense than trying to challenge yourself by playing wierd builds in PvE and pissing off your teammates.

The "same old builds" may get boring in PvE (for some people anyway), but PvP is by no means a cakewalk. If you're getting restless with PvE, I strongly suggest trying your hand at some PvP, whether in the arenas or elsewhere. It's a lot of fun and you can always find the challenge you're looking for.

Age · Oct 12, 2006, 10:56 PM // 22:56

I forgot to mention that I made up a nice smiting build for PvP mostly for RA and my teams and I took out 3 Warriors.

Quid Pro Quo · Oct 13, 2006, 05:09 AM // 05:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effigy

If you're looking for a challenge, look no further than PvP. Even if you're using an optimal, tried-and-true build, the challenges are neverending. To me this makes more sense than trying to challenge yourself by playing wierd builds in PvE and pissing off your teammates.

The "same old builds" may get boring in PvE (for some people anyway), but PvP is by no means a cakewalk. If you're getting restless with PvE, I strongly suggest trying your hand at some PvP, whether in the arenas or elsewhere. It's a lot of fun and you can always find the challenge you're looking for.

PvP is a whole different game.
First not everyone likes PvP and second not everyone likes the same challegen PvP brings everytime.

In PvE you are fighting in many different situations but in PvP those situations are much more limited so no you can't always find the challenege your looking for in PvP.

Everyone will find their own way to enjoy their game and if that pisses of your team mates then you need a different team.

*lemming* · Oct 13, 2006, 06:43 AM // 06:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quid Pro Quo

In PvE you are fighting in many different situations but in PvP those situations are much more limited so no you can't always find the challenege your looking for in PvP.

Are you kidding?

Thom Bangalter · Oct 13, 2006, 06:46 AM // 06:46

oh, well, I don't see the reason to challenge yourself in pve by running a sub-optimal build. You're putting in place limitation on what you can do strictly because you're too busy pwning charr to pvp, where the challenge comes from outthinking/outplaying your opponent rather than running a crap build and trying to beat sanctum cay.

Quid Pro Quo · Oct 13, 2006, 07:58 AM // 07:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by tehlemming

Are you kidding?

Nope.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

oh, well, I don't see the reason to challenge yourself in pve by running a sub-optimal build. You're putting in place limitation on what you can do strictly because you're too busy pwning charr to pvp, where the challenge comes from outthinking/outplaying your opponent rather than running a crap build and trying to beat sanctum cay.

Out playing a computer, out playing a player.. the only differents is one potentially upsets someone somewhere in the world. Playing a unique build that requires learning and not a guide on guildwiki is as real of a challenge as fighting a cookie cutter wammo, though playing the unique build happens to be more of a challenge more often.

The point of the game is entertainment and if someone has fun challenging themselves in PvE rather then PvP then they have completed the goal of the game but no matter what happens in the game it won't gain you anything in real life so it really doesn't matter.

onerail78 · Oct 13, 2006, 09:04 AM // 09:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by tehlemming

Are you kidding?

No. He's not. Play some PvP and you will see the standard cookie-cutter builds time and time again.

Warriors play generally the same two builds.
Monks play the same two builds.
Rangers the same build.
Sins the same two builds.
Mesmers, more diverse in builds, but presumably and quite often targeted against a certain class.
Necros, MM or SS.
Rits, I really haven't encountered more than a couple in PvP so I can't say there.
Eles, same two builds.

PvE at least offers you a more diverse set of builds to play against, rather than the 'accepted' builds for a class. I will say the random arenas do provide a more random makeup of teams, but still you find the same builds, time and time again.

And if you define sub-optimal according to a numbers game, then maybe you need a nice math game, rather than an RPG.

I don't give a rat's behind if an ele can deal more damage. What I do find fun and challenging is taking a healing class and being damn well effective as a damage dealer and doing a damn good job of it because I'm skilled enough to do it. Like has been said, any shmuck can take an ele and be a nuker, any shmuck can take a monk and heal, any shmuck can take a warrior and tank. So what, may I ask, is the challenge or the fun in that?

And if you want to call it a crap build, Thom, try playing against one with someone that knows how to use it or even just accept one on your team sometime.

NinjaKai · Oct 13, 2006, 12:09 PM // 12:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quid Pro Quo

Out playing a computer, out playing a player.. the only differents is one potentially upsets someone somewhere in the world. Playing a unique build that requires learning and not a guide on guildwiki is as real of a challenge as fighting a cookie cutter wammo, though playing the unique build happens to be more of a challenge more often.

Agreed. I can't imagine playing Guild Wars and not using a build I haven't made myself. Its much more fun making builds by yourself to figure out what you like.

Effigy · Oct 13, 2006, 12:22 PM // 12:22

Mobs in PvE have more variety than players in PvP, or at least high-end PvP--go to RA sometime and you'll see plenty of variety. This is because the number of highly effective builds is much smaller than the number of ineffective builds. Hell, the PvE mobs don't even really have builds, they only use about 4 skills.

I've PvE'd most of my time in Guild Wars, and I can attest to the fact that diversity does not equate to higher difficulty. It doesn't matter how many types of builds you have to face if most of them are weak. Now PvP, on the other hand, has a smaller range because people usually only want to run builds that are competitive. The challenge in PvP comes not from the variety of builds, but the skill with which players play those builds.

If you think PvE is equally or even more difficult than PvP, ask yourself this question: "How well do PUGs fare in PvE as opposed to PvP?" Or even better: "How do teams with 7 henchmen fare in PvE as opposed to PvP?"

Quote:

Originally Posted by onerail78

I don't give a rat's behind if an ele can deal more damage. What I do find fun and challenging is taking a healing class and being damn well effective as a damage dealer and doing a damn good job of it because I'm skilled enough to do it. Like has been said, any shmuck can take an ele and be a nuker, any shmuck can take a monk and heal, any shmuck can take a warrior and tank. So what, may I ask, is the challenge or the fun in that?

Yes, any player can take an accepted build and use it, but how well? Are you really trying to argue that all people using the same build perform on the same level? If "any shmuck can take a monk and heal," then why do some monks fail in Random Arena while others go on to win World Championships, using roughly the same build? The challenge comes from the players, not the builds.

onerail78 · Oct 13, 2006, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effigy

The challenge comes from the players, not the builds.

Which is my point. My AoE Smiting Monk build probably won't work for everyone, at least not anyone who can't control scatter and definately not someone just starting to play the game. My complaint is that I get rejected for teams because of my build but when I do get accepted my teammates end up complimenting me. They are impressed and I doubt any one of them would accuse my build of being sub-par after seeing me use it skillfully.

Effigy · Oct 13, 2006, 08:42 PM // 20:42

The reason most groups will reject a smiting monk is a matter of supply and demand, as well as risk versus reward. Healers are almost always in high demand and short supply in PvE. If a group needs support and the monk they get refuses to change his build from smiting, he isn't filling the role that group needs and it only makes sense to kick him. The same goes for any other profession that won't adapt to fit the group's needs.

Taking a smiter also entails a higher risk precisely because most people can't play the build effectively, as you already stated. Chances are the smiter trying to get into your PUG is a 55 solo build or is going to use lots of AoEs that will scatter mobs and mess up aggro. Even if the smiter is good, the reward is not going to be much better than just choosing a tried-and-true damage dealer like an SS necro or a nuker.

Consequently, it's only logical that most groups would not accept a smiting Mo/**. If there is an overabundance of monks trying to join, such as in a capping group at Granite Citadel, then most groups won't object to a smiter or even several. But those situations are few and far between. Unless you're playing with guildies, you have to be realistic about the roles monks are expected to fill in this game.

onerail78 · Oct 14, 2006, 05:09 AM // 05:09

I have no problem what so ever if a team has one slot available and needs a healer. That is not the role I fill, same as if I were a warrior, I don't fit the last slot on the team. No problem there.

It's the ones that so far only have 3 or 4 members, with no difinative makeup going thusfar. One of these particular groups, I was discussing my role as they hired on a Sin that clearly stated he did not have Barrage, making him, what I had thought, the most discriminated against proffession in the game. They accepted him, and booted me. Or the team at Thirsty River that took on the level 14 ele rather than the level 20 Smiter.

I understand just fine teams needing to have particular roles filled for particular missions. I do the same thing when making team, making sure I have a few key roles filled. But the difference between when I make a team and when others have often tended to do, not everyone, is that I will give a chance to roles that I don't need to accomplish the mission, if there are slots available. And taking a chance, even on the key roles for a mission, in any PUG there is the chance that anyone you team with is a complete moron or utterly incompetent at their role, or maybe just half-assed enough to do the job, but not enough to be able to say they contributed to the teams overall success in any great way. I've seen plenty of tanks, nukers, MM's, healers etc. completely botch a mission. My favorite is the tank using the frenzy/healing sig combo... I can't assume everyone is competent, but I can't assume they are not either, no matter what the build.

Rera · Oct 14, 2006, 06:22 AM // 06:22

Play what you want, but don't expect people to take you.

*lemming* · Oct 14, 2006, 07:31 AM // 07:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by onerail78

No. He's not. Play some PvP and you will see the standard cookie-cutter builds time and time again.

Because that has anything to do with this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quid Pro Quo

In PvE you are fighting in many different situations but in PvP those situations are much more limited so no you can't always find the challenege your looking for in PvP.

It's not just about your build, but also about how you play it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by onerail78

And if you define sub-optimal according to a numbers game, then maybe you need a nice math game, rather than an RPG.

Guild Wars is based on numbers. You may want to take a look at threads such as this:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...d.php?t=113319

Maybe you need a nice game of arm-wrestling, where physical strength and not math is the primary factor.

Quote:

Originally Posted by onerail78

I don't give a rat's behind if an ele can deal more damage. What I do find fun and challenging is taking a healing class and being damn well effective as a damage dealer and doing a damn good job of it because I'm skilled enough to do it. Like has been said, any shmuck can take an ele and be a nuker, any shmuck can take a monk and heal, any shmuck can take a warrior and tank. So what, may I ask, is the challenge or the fun in that?

You like playing suboptimal builds; fair enough. However, a couple of things to keep in mind:
1. Playing a suboptimal build, in and of itself, does not make you skillful.
2. If you really are skilled, why wouldn't you play an optimal build?