Curse

SnipiousMax · Oct 10, 2006, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reinfire

And what would you do if you are blinded? Do you just keep firing like a fool? I use such moments for a Troll. Also it helps you recover faster after a battle.

Troll is useful in only a small number of situations... none of which involve a group. If you are blinded you: 1.) Use a utility spell you have room for because you don't bring redundant attack skills 2.) Call the condition and wait a few seconds for your monk to remove it or 3.) Wait a few seconds for the condition to where off. I really don't see how this has anything to do with why Troll Ungent is overated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reinfire

More damage yes, but the shutdown part is whats so good about it. What good is a damage build if the damage doesnt stay. With Distracting Shot you can disable someones heal for good, and in PvP its so good on Res signets

I'm not at all doubting it's use in PvP. But just assumed this was a PvE build since you were using Archer's Signet. In PvE, as I stated, it is almost completely uneccesary to concern yourself with shutdown. Interrupts are another thing altogether. They server their purpose in mitigating damge, or dealing extra damage. Disabling ONE skill for ONE weak enemy in a MOB of enemies, is very rarely worthwhile. Exceptions would include a boss here and there, but never worth bringing in every quest and mission.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reinfire

Frenzy is not good with a shortbow, since you are allways in someones range, it wont work in PvP, only in PvE with good tanking, which I dont trust upon

Again, this is forcing you to think outside the box. Read Archon's post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reinfire

But why does this mean that I cant disagree with them?

You can certainly disagree, but don't expect the any of the Ranger Community to react positively to being treated like they are just "experts" (note the heavy qoutation marks and implied sarcasm) instead of experienced players offering feedback. You wanted feedback so you could change the build accordingly, but you don't want any negative? Well then, Penetrating shot is a good choice. There's the positive, now how are you going to change the build from that? You can't. You'll go on assuming you have some uber massive build, while wondering that no one else is intellegent enough to use it. Archon was to the point, and hit to the heart of what needed to be improved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reinfire

<snip> More arguement for Apply over Kindle <snip>

I certainly agree that Poison is excellent. Apply poison especially. But, you cannot expect to deal respectable single target damage with a Preperation that was meant to be used on a GROUP. Either run poison... or don't. Build to use poison, or build to deal damage. Both philosophies have their places and uses, but try to both and you'll do a piss poor job at both.

Quote:

Ok let me get into numbers: My attacks do generally 70-100 on casters, firing every 1,5 seconds, and im not counting the poison in this.

You'll need better numbers than that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reinfire

the opinion of a so-called "expert"

...

Nivryx · Oct 11, 2006, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Quote:

Ok let me get into numbers: My attacks do generally 70-100 on casters, firing every 1,5 seconds, and im not counting the poison in this.

i don't mean to be rude, but i don't believe in lying, so to be completely honest, im not impressed, i've had my needling shot do 91.

Quote:

None of these builds do more damage than mine, I suggest you test it yourself

secondly, please stop being hypocritcal, other people are clearly spending their time to discuss their opinions, yet you still remain firm in many of your positions. i by no means am spending my time, because i simply don't care what you do, as long as you understand there are higher quality builds, and suggestions that have been made can help you accomplish a more successful build.

Reinfire · Oct 11, 2006, 09:37 AM // 09:37

I could think of a few situations in PvE where shutdown would be usefull

About the Apply poison issue, I realise that if you have a high WS, its more effective if you fire it at multiple members of a group. I however use a low WS (only 7), with which the -4 degen from poison is the most damaging, someone posted some numbers that Apply poison does 16-20 dmg between 2 shots, which is more than kindle arrows at that WS level, and more than read the wind. so even though it was meant for groups, I still think its the most effective.

Quote:

i don't mean to be rude, but i don't believe in lying, so to be completely honest, im not impressed, i've had my needling shot do 91.

Why do you think these numbers are lied? Sorry to say it but I have seen the numbers with my own eyes and I think your making a fool out of yourself by accusing me of lying. Ill run some test with "needling shot" this weekend to see if I like it, I am sure that you can get into a situation where a needling shot would do 91 damage, but I think that was a peak instead of an average

Nivryx · Oct 11, 2006, 10:35 AM // 10:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by reinfire

Why do you think these numbers are lied?

Quote:

Originally Posted by me

im not impressed

who said i thought you lied, im merely saying that you shouldn't take pride in 70-100 dmg on spellcasters - big woop. please read more carefully. and no, the build i was using averaged 90 needling. and say what you will, i'm deeming this thread worthless so don't expect me to waste my time henchforth.

SnipiousMax · Oct 11, 2006, 01:45 PM // 13:45

Quote:

About the Apply poison issue

Poison deals 8 damage a second. If you are firing every 1.33 seconds (under the effects of an IAS) you will be dealing close to +8 damage a second with read the wind, and more with Kindle.

Were you to want the damage from poison against a single target a better option is Poison Arrow. You can use Kindle or read the wind ON TOP OF the poison damage.

Quote:

I could think of a few situations in PvE where shutdown would be usefull

That's the point. It's not widely useful.

Evilsod · Oct 11, 2006, 01:55 PM // 13:55

I always saw Marksmans Wager as the best elite for spamming Sundering/Penetrating. Once you get to less than 10 energy, just put Marksmans up and continue spamming... you gain 4 or 5 energy each use. Does limit you to having no other prep but wtf, you can always use FW.

Orange Milk · Oct 11, 2006, 02:26 PM // 14:26

Wow, I think this may be the second time I've ever agreed with Evilsod. If you wanna do pure dmg you should have FW, the nice out of sight out of mind prep that stacks with everything, including other preps, and how often do ya have to set it up? Every 2 mins or so. its a great skill.

If I have two Monks I rarley take a self heal, shouldn't have to. But always WD and Rez (PvP or PvE) I'm not a big fan of Troll, I don't like "heal over time" things.

If I'm blind I just stand back a wait for it to be removed or go away, Just think of all the Energy regen ya get while standin there.

I've never liked Needle Shot, and I dunno how you got it up to 90, I would like to know though, I've only tested it on the Isle and never acctully used it in battle so my knowledge of the skill is limited. I'm not a big fan of skills you HAVE to stack up to make good. I've used Suddering/penitrating enough to know and love them. 174 being the most I go one of those up to.

Also It's nice to see "archers Signet' used somewhere, mine is covered with dust.

Let the Flaming continue

Reinfire · Oct 11, 2006, 02:40 PM // 14:40

@ Nivryx

I dont know what your problem is here, I know my first replies were a lil bitchy, but I realised that allready and apologised for it. You completely ignored my apology and just keeps your negativeness about me in this thread, just stop bitching or leave.

He did make me curious how a needling shot can average 90 dmg, can someone show me that build?

@ Snipious

Actually im firing at 1,5 sec. And every 2 sec when LR wears out (LR is only active for 10 sec) Im not using LR pure for the fire rate, but also because its a 75% stance as well

@ Evilsod

I allready thought about that skill, it is a more powerfull energy conserver than Archers signet, but it is also more risky since you lose energy if you miss (due to a dodge or a suddenly activated 75% stance). Archer's signet does not have this insecurity, but it is harder to wield properly. Personally I dont like such a risk, same is why I dont like frenzy (not saying its a bad skill, its just not my taste)

XvArchonvX · Oct 11, 2006, 02:58 PM // 14:58

Quote:

Concerning Needling Shot

This was a skill I honestly overlooked and dismissed a bit when I first saw it. After I saw a stir about it on the forums and had my guildleader start telling me about how much she loved the skill I decided to try it out. The refire rate against a foe under 50% health simply must be seen to believe. If you use this right, you will be outfiring someone running a 33% IAS VERY easily. I believe the way the 90 damage from Needling Shot was gained was from using Needling Shot at 15-16 Marksmanship under the effects of Read the Wind, which is one of my favorite preps for the skill. Under these effects you will be doing 30-31 armor ignoring damage per shot (add 5 to that if you are using a Vamp bow as you should be with this setup), then take into account that you can fire off 2-3 Needling Shots in the time you fire one Penetrating Shot and you will see how this damage is accounted for. Under the right conditions of 16 marks and a vamp bow you do 108 damage in 3 shots with Needling Shot at least. If you use Glass Arrows instead of RtW, you then do 117 armor ignoring damage in 3 shots.

While Needling Shot can sometimes have limited use in some PvE situations where there are masses of weak enemies, it also serves as a rapid fire shot the way that an interupt does, but without the cooldown time afterwards. While this doesn't seem very significant, it can be used to interupt a dazed foe's skill that you might miss if restricted by you normal firing rate or to spread poison to multiple foes quickly if using Apply Poison. However Needling Shot truly shines against the stout enemies in both PvP and PvE.

SnipiousMax · Oct 11, 2006, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reinfire

@ Snipious

Actually im firing at 1,5 sec. And every 2 sec when LR wears out (LR is only active for 10 sec) Im not using LR pure for the fire rate, but also because its a 75% stance as well

So, you deal what.... 1-2 more damage than read the wind at 1.5 second shots and 3 more damage at 2 second shots, without the added benefit of increased arrow speed so you can use a flatbow? With an IAS that can be kept up constantly, Read the Wind will deal the same as poison. Kindle can be more or less without an IAS and always more with one.

Reinfire · Oct 11, 2006, 03:15 PM // 15:15

A flatbow is I think not so good when spamming Sundering/Penetrating attack.

Ill give needling shot a try this weekend, ill replace apply poison by read the wind and troll by needling shot and see what it does

(ill still use the penetrating attacks to get the health down below 50% fast)

Sir Mad · Oct 11, 2006, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

If you wanna do pure dmg you should have FW, the nice out of sight out of mind prep that stacks with everything, including other preps, and how often do ya have to set it up? Every 2 mins or so. its a great skill.

Yeah but FW as any spirits works both for you and your enemies, and you have to use it only every 2 mins only if you stay more than 2 mins at the same place :P

Quote:

@ Snipious

Actually im firing at 1,5 sec. And every 2 sec when LR wears out (LR is only active for 10 sec) Im not using LR pure for the fire rate, but also because its a 75% stance as well

Lol yeah that's what I'm saying since the beginning - I defended LR as a good skill under some cirumstances in another thread but it's definitely not viable as an IAS skill. And as a defensive skill, you already have WD...

But again the choice depends on the environment (PvP or PvE, and what kind of PvP/PvE).

XvArchonvX · Oct 11, 2006, 04:26 PM // 16:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reinfire

A flatbow is I think not so good when spamming Sundering/Penetrating attack.

I'm not sure I understand your reasoning for this. The assumed usage of a Flatbow that has been suggested is under the effects of RtW. Under such circumstances a Flatbow has the same refire rate as a shortbow, same arrow speed as a shortbow under the effect or a greater speed than a shortbow not under the effect, but has maximum distance. While the definition of Read the Winds states that arrows travel twice as fast, it actually makes the speed of a travelling arrow the same for all bow types under the effect. The explanation of this effect is given in the notes section of Guild Wiki:

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Read_the_Wind

As for the LR debate, I find that the only time I bring LR is when I run a Practiced Stance + Choking Gas + Flurry build to be able to maintain pressure while under pressure myself.

Reinfire · Oct 11, 2006, 04:47 PM // 16:47

My bad, I was mixing up flatbow with hornbow

Evilsod · Oct 11, 2006, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reinfire

@ Evilsod

I allready thought about that skill, it is a more powerfull energy conserver than Archers signet, but it is also more risky since you lose energy if you miss (due to a dodge or a suddenly activated 75% stance). Archer's signet does not have this insecurity, but it is harder to wield properly. Personally I dont like such a risk, same is why I dont like frenzy (not saying its a bad skill, its just not my taste)

How often do people use 75% stances? Be honest. The only enemy in an AB who will use an evasive stance is a Ranger/Toucher. Been as you have no cripple your limited to what you can achieve vs a Toucher anyway so your just left with a ranger. The only other 1 would be a boon prot via Guardian, but that can be interrupted.

In HA/GvG you'd never be running this build because it has no utility or spike potential so theres no point discussing that.

In TA you still lack a res and Lightning Reflexes really does suck for TA imo. Plus with only 1 interrupt enemy casters could quite easily get 1 over you.

RA isn't worth mentioning as its a waste of time and space.

In PvE evasive stances appear once every millenium. Unless your running Seeking Arrows (very unlikely) you won't hit them anyway so you should just switch target instead of spamming away.

Munanko Roha · Oct 12, 2006, 07:59 AM // 07:59

Mmh for a 90 Needling Shot... Judge's Insight on a Frenzied undead?

dgb · Oct 12, 2006, 08:32 AM // 08:32

I honestly don't see the point of this sort of character. If you want DPS from attacks go a warrior. They are better at it than rangers, not too mention they spike harder. If you want shutdown then go full shutdown.

Apply poison makes no sense to me either, it shines when you can get it onto multiple characters. If you're just going to shoot someone you're investing a lot of energy into something that's performing sub-par.

I guess I can understand it in PVE, you've got a ranger and you want DPS on it so this makes sense, although Barrage I suspect would do more anyway, but in PVP I don't see why you'd run it - builds like this are marginally annoying but not a threat to monks in randoms. I'll throw up a guardian if I'm bored against this, but on a threat rating it sits with fire elementalists. Not overly threatening unless I have to go AFK for 30s. If you're using this outside randoms, well you're going to lose to anything other than other scrub teams. A team that understands maximising potential of characters will slap a team with this sort of garbage around.

Reinfire · Oct 12, 2006, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Ignoring your obvious sarcasm, I get the feeling that you are holding on too much to non-existend laws for builds in GW. Why would a Warrior be "THE" damage dealer for GW? Its bullshit, a ranger can deal just as much dmg as a warrior, so do all proffessions BTW if wielded correctly. your "Ill throw a guardian if im bored" is rediculous. If you think that a mere guardian can stop a good warrior/ranger/assassin build than you need some more field experience.

Even if this build is flawed, it can still kill someone in a matter of seconds

Skuld · Oct 12, 2006, 03:18 PM // 15:18

No, a ranger cannot when it comes to DPS.

Rangers shine at disruption, degen, e-denial etc but not at killing stuff better than a war >_<

Sir Mad · Oct 12, 2006, 04:31 PM // 16:31

^ r-spike anyone?