Curse

SnipiousMax · Sep 26, 2006, 04:00 AM // 04:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Former Ruling

Toxicity is hax. Gives more Degen than Lacerate, and triggers off more conditions. And isn't elite.

-4 is possible at 12 beast.

I'd expect a rebalance on that one. At least making it an elite so you can't use it with Oath shot.

Zui · Sep 26, 2006, 05:16 AM // 05:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

I'd expect a rebalance on that one. At least making it an elite so you can't use it with Oath shot.

Do that and no one will run it, ever. Plus, I think they've already decided on what skills will be Elite and which skills won't be Elite.

lennymon · Sep 26, 2006, 07:29 AM // 07:29

pure peastmastery r/x with posinous bite and tox... and heck, whatever else

Evilsod · Sep 26, 2006, 05:36 PM // 17:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

I'd expect a rebalance on that one. At least making it an elite so you can't use it with Oath shot.

Zui said it... if they made it elite no-one would use it... exactly why no-one uses Lacerate or Seeping Wound. I can see them lowering the degen by 1 point to make it -1 to -4 or improving Lacerate/Seeping... both really do suck with this skill around (even more so than before).

Without Oath Shot there for spirits... nobody will use them, the more elite spirits they make the more elite spirits people will avoid. Its not as if they're hard to kill.

XvArchonvX · Sep 26, 2006, 07:42 PM // 19:42

Since the effectiveness of Toxicity is affected by the amount of attributes spent in Beast Mastery, I don't think this skill will be incredibly overpowered since it will require a near full beast master to be able to use the skill very effectively.

I do see this skill as being something that would work well with an apply poison, Heket's Rampage and possibly even EoE. Since you should be able to lower a large group of enemies health below 90% quickly with degen, EoE may actually come in handy despite or maybe even because of the nerf.

Bloodied Blade · Sep 26, 2006, 08:00 PM // 20:00

I'm really interested to see what all the "does x on critical" stuff is planned for... maybe a new type of rune or weapon style?

XvArchonvX · Sep 27, 2006, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Is it me, or is Scavenger's Focus {E} skill blatantly inferior to Read the Winds?

Read the Winds:
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Read_the_Wind

Scavenger's Focus:
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Scavenger%27s_Focus

Evilsod · Sep 27, 2006, 11:36 PM // 23:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

Is it me, or is Scavenger's Focus {E} skill blatantly inferior to Read the Winds?

Read the Winds:
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Read_the_Wind

Scavenger's Focus:
http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Scavenger%27s_Focus

Inferior isn't the word.... completely and utterly useless would of been more accurate. I mean come on... until the added damage is nearer the likes of Melandrus Arrows, which is also a conditional prep, that elite is absolutely awful.

XvArchonvX · Sep 28, 2006, 01:58 AM // 01:58

ok, thnx for the confirmation. I don't think I've seen such an obviously bad elite before, so I just wanted to make sure there wasn't something subtle to the skill that I was missing.

SnipiousMax · Sep 28, 2006, 05:10 AM // 05:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

ok, thnx for the confirmation. I don't think I've seen such an obviously bad elite before, so I just wanted to make sure there wasn't something subtle to the skill that I was missing.

I just skip over it when I review the skills... it hurts my eyes. It even has a scale and it's still worse.

Former Ruling · Sep 29, 2006, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Quote:

Since the effectiveness of Toxicity is affected by the amount of attributes spent in Beast Mastery, I don't think this skill will be incredibly overpowered since it will require a near full beast master to be able to use the skill very effectively.

12 Beast to get the FULL -4 (it never changes to -5, so 12 is enough) - Thats nothing for a Spirit Spammer to come up with.

They might reconsider the attribute organization to make -4 at like 15 beast or something though.

------------------------------
My elite analysis now:

Rampage as One:
EXPENSIVE, and doesnt make sense in any real build. You gotta have a pet and HIGH beastmastery to use it - and pet builds usually dont glorify the ranger himself - and Pets ALREADY HAVE A SHOUT THAT DOES THIS, AND IT CAN BE UP ALL THE TIME. SO we are paying extra, giving up Enraged Lunge, and it cant be up all the time, just so you can attack faster with your bow that you probably dont even met the requirement of.

Strike as One:
Again...Elite slot (so no Enraged Lunge or Fero strike, the only real reasons to use Pets for actual attacking) and it doesn't do much....ONE use of ENraged Lunge outdmgs ALL of the attacks this effects put together.

Expert's Dexterity:
Constantly re-doing it because of its low duration...Even at 16 expertise, it makes your attacks cost MORE than the original cost, for half recharge? Most of the attacks have lower recharges anyway...Like Archer's Signet..no use. This even hurts Expertise as an attribute..taking the one thing rangers have in low costs and asking them to use the attacks MORE?

Sweltering Heat:
I love Ranger spirits, so this is a BIAS ALERT. !!! I dont like this as much as maybe some others, I'll test it. I love taking stuff in Alliance Battles and seeing how much it changes the battle

Of course its useless for anything else, Elite Spirit = no Oath Shot.

Burning Arrow:
For PvE areas where barrage doesnt apply, I'd use it. If Burning lasts its full duration, this does near +100 dmg to the target lol. in PvP..alot better elites.

Prepared Shot:
Again...like some other ranger bow attack elites...not really NEEDED. Its basically is net energy gain under a prep...but is that needed? theres better elites for bow attack rangers, they dont need an elite slot used for energy.

Scavenger's Focus:
LAWL. Nuff Said. NONELITE preps like Kindle Arrows are better than this.

Smoke Trap:
Better than Spike Trap? yea. Does that mean anything? Not really...In PvP trappers would use Oath Shot, and in PvE traps are for dmg, not the conditions, and this does no dmg. It just doesnt have a Niche... I might use it in alliance battles though, and I'd HATE pve monsters that carried it

Weariness:
REFER TO SWELTERING HEAT!!! I like this one...It'll be HAX when I set this in Alliance Battles (

). As for REAL uses for it...none..elite spirit..remember?

Magebane Shot:
Seems haxzors at first, "End of Choking gas!!@@!!", but if you DONT hit a spell...guess what..10 sec recharge on your main interupt

Is it better than Punishing Shot? Sure for interupting, will it replace choking? No...

EDIT: I have been corrected by someone, somewhat, on the subject of "As One" skills. Of the two we have now 1 of them works without needing a pet, and one of them needs a live pet inorder to activate. So I'll need tests of these new elites to see which way they are. Still doesn't change my overall opinion of the skills, but makes part of my argument against them invalid.

Craze Horse · Sep 29, 2006, 03:07 AM // 03:07

I'm hoping for some kind of Scavengers Focus buff for use with Needling Shot. In concept, this could get very nasty.

Experts Dexterity could be pretty decent for Debil spam possibly. I don't predict this will be used much.

SnipiousMax · Sep 29, 2006, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Former Ruling

Prepared Shot:
Again...like some other ranger bow attack elites...not really NEEDED. Its basically is net energy gain under a prep...but is that needed? theres better elites for bow attack rangers, they dont need an elite slot used for energy.

Nevermind that it's one of the most damaging skills for only five energy. You need to look beyond the energy gain. This skill deals very respectable damage (more damage per energy than Mauraders/Melandrus) with no negative condition or trait (ie... Focused Shot) for next to nothing in energy. You can essentialy use this skill and an interrupt or other attack skill consequtively for free, allowing you to keep up a steady stream of attack skills indefinately. I don't care how good you are at conserving your energy. Using one attack skill every two or three normal attacks can't compare with using your attack skills everytime they recharge.

Evilsod · Sep 29, 2006, 01:22 PM // 13:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Former Ruling

Smoke Trap:
Better than Spike Trap? yea. Does that mean anything? Not really...In PvP trappers would use Oath Shot, and in PvE traps are for dmg, not the conditions, and this does no dmg. It just doesnt have a Niche... I might use it in alliance battles though, and I'd HATE pve monsters that carried it

Does Vimway ring any bells? Traps are used for conditions just as much as damage. As part of Vimway i'd say its the conditions more so than anything. Cripple, blind, bleeding, burning, poison, all very powerful conditions. On single targets they don't accomplish much, but when on almost everything the conditions do so much more damage than the traps ever could. The only advantage Dust Trap has is that (for some unknown reason) its armour ignoring damage so makes for some major pain when stacked. Of course been as ViM is elite Smoke Trap won't be there.

As for other forms of PvP. Now the recharge of Oath Shot was upped to 25 seconds most traps have almost entirely recharged, bar Whirling/Dirt. Dirt isn't too useful in PvP and Whirling usually gets rid of any attackers anyway and you've just gotta hope they don't come back while its recharging (surely your own traps help then anyway) but this trap could create some major pressure if all your casters were running around been hit with Dazed every so often, Cyclone Axe/Triple Chop would create chaos if they could interrupt everything nearby.

Former Ruling · Sep 30, 2006, 08:36 PM // 20:36

SnipiousMax - Even at 5 energy, my opinion of the skill doesn't change.

Evilsod - I ddin't mention ViMway for the same reason you stopped mentioning it - They too can't use Smoke Trap cause its Elite. To clarify the conditions thing, I said in PVE traps=Damage, so your argument about conditions and such is off base because I already knew why conditions were used in PvP, but that wasnt what that sentence in my post as about.

AS for Oath Shot, saying its 25 recharge is longer than most traps recharges isn't saying much, cause even when it was 20 sec recharge, its recharge was still the same as most of the traps...So by your logic Oath Shot has always been useless for Trappers. But that isn't why Oath Shot is used at all. It isn't Glyph of Renewel where it is used to basically turn the recharge of any spell to 16 - Oath shot isn't to turn the recharge of traps to 25 (20 formerly), its simply there to reload the traps after you use them so they are ready to use the next time you see fit to use them.

And I know Smoke Traps usefulness, I even said "Better than Spike Trap? yea" I didn't go into detail about what Dazed does, but I assumed people would catch the drift. But I still stand firm that Oath Shot is just a million times more effective for active trapping. Like I told SnipiousMax, These are my opinions...

EDIT: I have been corrected by someone, somewhat, on the subject of "As One" skills. Of the two we have now 1 of them works without needing a pet, and one of them needs a live pet inorder to activate. So I'll need tests of these new elites to see which way they are. Still doesn't change my overall opinion of the skills, but makes part of my argument against them invalid.

SnipiousMax · Sep 30, 2006, 11:21 PM // 23:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Former Ruling

...my opinion of the skill doesn't change.

I'm curious what skills (emphasis on the 's' plural) you have in mind as a better slot for a bow attack Ranger. I can think of one Elite Attack skill I'd take in a bow attack build curently: Punishing Shot. I can't justify taking an elite prep, because there is a very good non-elite one. I don't see using any of the elite spirits. I guess you could take barrage, but that's not always useful. Poison Arrow? Well that's not really a bow attack build, and I'm still a firm believer in Apply Poison. Escape is always useful, if you don't feel you need an elite for something else, but again, that's not really a bow attack elite. It's fine that you say it's not needed, as that's entirely true. If you are running out of energy with a Primary attribute as freaking sweet as Expertise, then even a skill like this isn't going to help you. The point is, that it easily fills it's spot on a bar as a damage skill. Decent Recharge, very cheap, damage comparable to some 10 energy skills, not one single drawback. It deals damage equal to Focused Shot (currently the most damaging 5 energy skill apart from barrage), but it doesn't disable your skills. Now considering all of those things, we look at what else it has to offer. At 12 marks it returns 7 energy every six seconds, more at 16 marks. It's condition is arguably the easiest condition to meet in the game, as it is extremely rare that you are not running some type of prep. What this means to the Ranger, is that he can use this skill, follow with a 10 energy skill, and not feel a dent at all in his energy. All of this ON TOP of being a really good skill to begin with. If you prefer the only other viable choice, Punishing Shot, that's fine. It's worth it's weight as well. But it shouldn't be dismissed as worthless, because it's got the added benefit of returning energy.

Heck, if you run 13 in Expertise on top of using this skill, you regen the energy you use in the time it takes to fire the attack, and gain 7 or more energy from the skill's effect.

Better question to ask... "What are you going to do with all that energy?"

That my friend, we'll leave to the sages.

XvArchonvX · Sep 30, 2006, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Better question to ask... "What are you going to do with all that energy?"

FIRESTORM FTW!!

lol, sry couldn't resist. In all honesty, the extra energy really does come in handy to allow a ranger to endure long fights without needing downtime to recharge when spamming high energy attack/interupt skills (Concussion Shot anyone?).

SnipiousMax · Oct 01, 2006, 03:38 AM // 03:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by XvArchonvX

FIRESTORM FTW!!

lol, sry couldn't resist. In all honesty, the extra energy really does come in handy to allow a ranger to endure long fights without needing downtime to recharge when spamming high energy attack/interupt skills (Concussion Shot anyone?).

heh

Actually, I was thinking that it would make using Ritualist weapon spells somewhat viable on a Ranger primary.

Former Ruling · Oct 01, 2006, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

I'm curious what skills (emphasis on the 's' plural) you have in mind as a better slot for a bow attack Ranger.

I never said Prepared Shot was bad, I said its like the other elite bow attacks they press on us, really not NEEDED all that much...You said yourself Punishing Shot and Barrage are really the only Bow attacks in PvE worth bringing (CripShot in PvP), thats because rangers are saterated with elites and such that dont compliment their playstyle.

As for that PvE I mentioned, I'd bring Prepared Shot sometimes sure..It isnt like your elite really MATTERS all that much in PvE, I've used worse with excellent results. Ranger's suffer from not having as clear cut elite options as other classes (exception being Beastmastery, where there are obvious choices), and often find themselves just grabbing an elite and saying "hmm, good eonugh, and I need an elite", thats why Barrage is brought so much - its an easy choice, and Punishing shot is "welp, I guess another interupt wont HURT".

But personally (Extreme just personal opinion here) I'd still pack Melandru's Shot over this. 5 more energy nets me more Dmg (and we all know PvE is all about killing that Charr fast), and in most areas atleast half the enemies use enchantments so its net energy too.

XvArchonvX · Oct 02, 2006, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Former Ruling

As for that PvE I mentioned, I'd bring Prepared Shot sometimes sure..It isnt like your elite really MATTERS all that much in PvE, I've used worse with excellent results.

I'm sure that works if you just want to ride on the coattails of your teammates, but I believe most prefer to be more helpful in a group.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Former Ruling

Ranger's suffer from not having as clear cut elite options as other classes (exception being Beastmastery, where there are obvious choices), and often find themselves just grabbing an elite and saying "hmm, good eonugh, and I need an elite", thats why Barrage is brought so much - its an easy choice, and Punishing shot is "welp, I guess another interupt wont HURT".

Having a large selection of quality elites is a bad thing? And Barrage is often brought in PvE because rangers often go against large mobs of enemies in which case Barrage can produce the largest damage per second.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Former Ruling

But personally (Extreme just personal opinion here) I'd still pack Melandru's Shot over this. 5 more energy nets me more Dmg (and we all know PvE is all about killing that Charr fast), and in most areas atleast half the enemies use enchantments so its net energy too.

I'm not sure I agree that most areas have at least half of the enemies with enchantments, but in certain areas, Melandru's Shot can be a good choice.