Curse

AaronSwitchblade · Nov 01, 2006, 06:34 AM // 06:34

Just to start this thread, I don't currently have Nightfall, so I only have what I've been told to go on.

My question is this - are heroes actually a good thing? Is the game going to improve as a result of their inclusion?

In concept, I know it seems good that players can upgrade AI henchmen, and give them a bit of personality and character, I'm aware of all this.

However, what bothers me is that potentially, there are a lot of players that "sit on the fence" with henchmen and random player groups. Is it likely, then, that this group of players (which could be sizeable) will begin to forego the entire multiplayer aspect of Guild Wars, preferring instead a completely solo experience? And could this have a detrimental effect on the game?

Then of course, there are certain classes that can have trouble getting into groups in PvE, such as Assassins and primary Mesmers, because many players aren't aware how much they can offer a team in the right hands. Is this going to make their experience more difficult?

As I said, I don't have NF yet, so there might be something about heroes that I've missed that makes this discussion moot. If there is, then I'd like to know.

(Incidentally, I know there are ongoing arguments about AI bugs; for the sake of this discussion, can we pretend for a moment that the AI has been fixed, because I'm sure it will be at some point)

Ole Man Bourbon · Nov 01, 2006, 06:43 AM // 06:43

NF is much closer to a 3rd person RPG for sure. At least for the main PvE storyline.

AaronSwitchblade · Nov 01, 2006, 06:47 AM // 06:47

Hmmm, I was worried about that.

Ole Man Bourbon · Nov 01, 2006, 06:49 AM // 06:49

Well the storyline in the MMO is pretty short anyway, and are PUGs really that fun?

I haven't quite finished yet, I should add.

Metanoia · Nov 01, 2006, 06:51 AM // 06:51

How exactly does the "leveling your own heroes" thing workout compared to them being at a pre-determined level like the regular henchmen? Isn't that encouraging people to use heroes over real people just to avoid having their heroes fall behind in levels?

AaronSwitchblade · Nov 01, 2006, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Hmmm. What bothers me about it is I think Guild Wars is a great multiplayer game; I really do. However, I think even the best MMO, in terms of playing it solo, pales in comparison to the likes of KOTOR or most other good single player RPGs.

As a result, I really don't want to see it become a solo-centric game, as I like the team-play aspect and if that ever ceases to be, en masse, then I will have fewer reasons to play GW.

Hockster · Nov 01, 2006, 06:55 AM // 06:55

Heroes rock, hench are okay, PUGS suck major ass.

Kusandaa · Nov 01, 2006, 06:56 AM // 06:56

I like heroes to quest; I usually like to play missions with real people. This way, while questing, I can explore and such without being pressured by other people's schedule and whatever. What I found so far is that for SOME quests and missions it's basically impossible to find a human team. While at times, I'm happy to my heroes than people who don't listen...

Just a quick example on the kind of behaviour that sets me off: people that kick real players in order to have heroes. I've got a personal experience with this one... I was looking for a group to do the first Command Post quest and when I finally found one, I warn them not to take an 8th player because we'll NEED Dunkoro to trigger the quest. They don't listen, take the 8th player (maybe it was a guildie or a friend?) and they go. They later realized they NEEDED Dunkoro and headed back in town... where I got the boot because I was the "secondary necro" (battery + SS). I mean... gg >_<. I later did it with a guildie, but that kind of behaviour annoys me to no end.

So when I make teams for quests where I KNOW Heroes are gonna be needed, I make sure to take the good amount of players...

EDIT: To the ones who were saying heroes made more people play in HA (I think it was a guild discussion) I say no... because of the above reason. Heroes are prefered to PUGs.

Two April Mornings · Nov 01, 2006, 06:56 AM // 06:56

Heroes are a great feature that adds a welcomed depth to GW single player PVE.

Zui · Nov 01, 2006, 06:57 AM // 06:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metanoia

How exactly does the "leveling your own heroes" thing workout compared to them being at a pre-determined level like the regular henchmen? Isn't that encouraging people to use heroes over real people just to avoid having their heroes fall behind in levels?

I'm already encouraged to use Heroes over real people. Most PvErs who have to PUG suck, and suck very badly. AIs that you can control every aspect of, however, are much better than poor players running sub-par skills and equipment.

Metanoia · Nov 01, 2006, 07:15 AM // 07:15

That wasn't what I was asking. Personally, I've never had much trouble finding reasonable pugs, but then I tend to make them myself and try to keep a dialog going...

What I want to know is if I were to play with minimal heroes (apparently they're required in certain missions/quests), will I regret it if I find myself with no one else to play with (on at an odd hour etc.) and my heroes are still level 1(or whatever level that began at)? Pug prejudice aside, if that's really how it works, it seems as though it's discouraging cooperative play. Wouldn't it make more sense to have their levels set to that of regular henchmen, depending on your location?

doinchi · Nov 01, 2006, 08:17 AM // 08:17

Heroes are powerful efficient ways of getting tihngs done, but I tihnk they have taken away alot of the multiplayer aspect of the game. I have gotten as far as Dasha vestibule, and only one time I managed to get into a human group. We won the mission easily, but the rest I had to resort to using Heros. Heroes dont talk and have no sense of humour, so I prefer Human players. I like Heroes for quests, but missions, I prefer real ppl.

Yawgmoth · Nov 01, 2006, 08:27 AM // 08:27

Technically, heroes are a great feature, but the main problem is...
...this and other new features basically turn this game into Single Player Online RPG, with multiplayer as an *option*, not a main part of the game. Which is strange for an online game. Nightfall strongly encourages playing solo and heroes make that possible and easy.
A single player (with heroes and henchies) can now complete the PvE part of the game and it will be much faster this way. Getting any perfect items he would want to use is now easy without interacting with other players at all.

I don't like the trend where it is all going:
Instead of improving the party creation and looking for players system, Nightfall removes the need to play with others.
Instead of improving the trading system, Nightfall significantly reduces the need to trade with other players at all... just make your stuff out of easily found components

This is straight opposite to the both previous chapters, which were in fact encouragning playing together, partying with other people, participating in guilds, alliances... Nothing like this in Nightfall, but the opposite - playing solo is encouraged by the system.

Gigashadow · Nov 01, 2006, 08:42 AM // 08:42

The thing is, though, the in-game community is one of the worst I've ever experienced in any game, perhaps because there is no accountability or reputation, and individuals and their guilds are fairly anonymous. You will rarely see the same character twice.

So from that perspective, heroes are a definite plus.

0mar · Nov 01, 2006, 09:29 AM // 09:29

Heroes are so much better than PuGs. I'm glad I never have to look for a group of PuGers.

1. Pugs are full of people who are bad. You have whammos with healing hands, power attack and dolyak signet. You have monks with Ray of Judgement, no energy management and the most expensive heals. You have Mesmers who spam the stupidest hexes possible. And, of course, you have the assassin who has no idea how to control agro or to back off when under attack.

2. Pugs are full of immature ***holes. They draw penises, swastikas and other crude imitations of artwork. They swear and cuss at you when you suggest a skillbar improvement. They go "lol res sig is for newbs" and will be the first one to bitch at the monk for a missed heal when they die.

3. Thunderhead Keep. Not so much the mission, but the time it took to form a group (6-8 months ago, not sure how it is now) was ridiculous. Monks were at an absolute premium and no group wants to go without 2 or 3 monks, even though the mission isn't even that hard.

Heroes alleviate all those problems. I control the skillbar of my heroes, making sure they each have a well defined role, good skills, and good specs in attributes. My buddy has his set of heroes and we can literally get a mission going in 2 minutes, rather than 20. On top of that, we can beat the missions on the first try, unlike most pugs later in the game. Heroes play smarter than Puggers, have better skillbars and don't act like immature pricks.

Tortoise · Nov 01, 2006, 10:13 AM // 10:13

Heroes are awesome. They add depth, alleviate alot of frustration and are easily controllable. Heroes are simply better then 95% of all pugs out there. Is that a shame?

In a way, yes, but I appreciate the extra choice. For those that do want to pug, pugs are still possible. For those that don't wanna deal with all the extra fuss anymore it's awesome. In a way it does make grouping easier. No more need to wait around for real monks or a minionmaster. You just grab your best friends and fill in the other slots with heroes. Maximum fun with zero frustration. Not to mention that this might even improve the average quality of pugs: at least the people you're pugging with enjoy the social aspect...

About your heroes not levelling with you: it is somewhat of a problem although (i'm guessing) mainly for the ones you get early in the game. Still, heroes get xp from quests so if you want to level them then just always add them when you're accepting quest rewards and drop them afterwords.

Oh a GW forum · Nov 01, 2006, 10:18 AM // 10:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0mar

Heroes are so much better than PuGs. I'm glad I never have to look for a group of PuGers.

1. Pugs are full of people who are bad. You have whammos with healing hands, power attack and dolyak signet. You have monks with Ray of Judgement, no energy management and the most expensive heals. You have Mesmers who spam the stupidest hexes possible. And, of course, you have the assassin who has no idea how to control agro or to back off when under attack.

2. Pugs are full of immature ***holes. They draw penises, swastikas and other crude imitations of artwork. They swear and cuss at you when you suggest a skillbar improvement. They go "lol res sig is for newbs" and will be the first one to bitch at the monk for a missed heal when they die.

3. Thunderhead Keep. Not so much the mission, but the time it took to form a group (6-8 months ago, not sure how it is now) was ridiculous. Monks were at an absolute premium and no group wants to go without 2 or 3 monks, even though the mission isn't even that hard.

Heroes alleviate all those problems. I control the skillbar of my heroes, making sure they each have a well defined role, good skills, and good specs in attributes. My buddy has his set of heroes and we can literally get a mission going in 2 minutes, rather than 20. On top of that, we can beat the missions on the first try, unlike most pugs later in the game. Heroes play smarter than Puggers, have better skillbars and don't act like immature pricks.

Wtf? Healing Hands and Dolyak Signet are awesome tanking skills. Sad when people try to critisize something they know nothing about.

0mar · Nov 01, 2006, 10:21 AM // 10:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oh a GW forum

Wtf? Healing Hands and Dolyak Signet are awesome tanking skills. Sad when people try to critisize something they know nothing about.

are you kidding me? Who needs to tank when you can kill the monster in half the amount of time. Quit thinking the warrior needs to hold the line while the ele charges up his nuke spells. You can easily drop targets like they were hot with damage skills on a warrior.

darrylhaines · Nov 01, 2006, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hockster

Heroes rock, hench are okay, PUGS suck major ass.

Whats wrong with Pugs?

I know you can get some fool join and thus the wammo has a hissing fit and leaves with the monk, but most of the PUG's I've been in have been great.

Monk of The Light · Nov 01, 2006, 10:44 AM // 10:44

I'm glad that there are heroes, but it felt a bit odd when I first entered NF and there were no messages like "LF MONK" or such. Just felt strange...