Curse

blackbird71 · Nov 03, 2006, 03:33 PM // 15:33

The recent changes to Shadow of Haste raise the question: Can you improve a skill and actually make it worse than it was?

Consider this: Assassins are close range (melee) damage dealers. They don't have the armor of a warrior, and they survive by using hit and fade tactics. If they try to hold their ground in a toe to toe fight, they will lose.

Personally, I found Shadow of Haste quite useful. At a rank of 10 in Shadow Arts, it lasted 15 seconds. It worked just long enough to get me into a fight, fire of a couple of attack chains, and usually take out at least one soft target (ele, monk, etc.) before it ended. It would then snap me back out of harms way, often just in time, allowing me to heal and prepare for another assault if needed.

Now, at the same attribute level, it lasts 50 seconds. This keeps an Assassin in the fight for close to a full minute, taking damage the entire time. It is no longer hit and fade, the Assassin's trademark, but effectively makes you a standard infantry fighter.

Add to this the fact that the elite skill Shadow Form used to last for the same duration as Shadow of Haste, in this case 15 seconds. It was very easy to activate Shadow of Haste, then follow with Shadow Form as you closed in on your target. Just before Shadow Form left you hanging with only 35 hp, Shadow of Haste would pull you to safety. Now, unless you keep a stopwatch handy and time it just right, using Shadow Form with Shadow of Haste is almost surely going to get you killed (could this be why they changed SoH?).

While the Shadow of Haste stats look better on paper, I think we were secretly hit by the nerf bat from behind. What do you think?

Lord Mendes · Nov 03, 2006, 03:51 PM // 15:51

You can look at it from another perspective too.
Lots of flagrunners have been using shadow of haste to speed flag running capabilities. You can speck it right so that if you activate it at the flag spawn point you can run to the flagstand and cap/give to someone and automatically start back at the flag spawn.

arredondo · Nov 03, 2006, 03:52 PM // 15:52

Use a stance cancel like Dash or Deadly Paradox to contol when Shadow of Haste teleports you back. It's a fantastic skill now, especially for large maps (i.e. GvG).

You are constantly faster than opponents with no speed boosts, and you are getting a better defensive shadow step with a non-elite to get out of trouble than AoD (which is an elite). No fussing over un-maintaining little buttons and it can shadow step you further away if you wish. Of course AoD is still great with the offensive shadow step, so no one needs to tell me the obvious.

dgb · Nov 03, 2006, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird71

What do you think?

I think it's time you invested in a cancel stance. It's clearly superior now, long lasting, controllable teleport to safety. Don't need to run away? You don't have to. Need to run away? Do it whenever you want.

blackbird71 · Nov 03, 2006, 06:02 PM // 18:02

So far as flag running goes, I haven't tested this lately and it may have changed, but it used to be that if you got too far from your starting point, Shadow of Haste would fail to return you when the time was up.

As for a "cancel stance," yes I understand how effective this can be, but also it means tying up an extra slot on the skill bar for the sole purpose of shutting down SoH. Sure that stance would have added benefits, but it seems a high price to pay to fix something that used to work beautifully before just on natural timing.

I don't think I would have minded a 5 or maybe even 10 second increase to the skill, but bumping it up to 50, while making it useful for other purposes, just seems counterproductive to what an assassin is.

Thom Bangalter · Nov 03, 2006, 08:18 PM // 20:18

I think you're missing the point. You can still shadow step in, unleash your combo, and fade out, simply by hitting dash. Now, you get to control when it ends and can end it whenever you want. Also, I've teleported huge distances running it in GVG and AB, so there's really no limitation to it. The only problem is sometimes running into trouble with walls and gates.

It still works like it used to (just hit dash for it to end) you get a slight speed buff for killin', and now it's a good skill, instead of a niche skill.

Tainek · Nov 03, 2006, 08:39 PM // 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird71

So far as flag running goes, I haven't tested this lately and it may have changed, but it used to be that if you got too far from your starting point, Shadow of Haste would fail to return you when the time was up.

As for a "cancel stance," yes I understand how effective this can be, but also it means tying up an extra slot on the skill bar for the sole purpose of shutting down SoH. Sure that stance would have added benefits, but it seems a high price to pay to fix something that used to work beautifully before just on natural timing.

I don't think I would have minded a 5 or maybe even 10 second increase to the skill, but bumping it up to 50, while making it useful for other purposes, just seems counterproductive to what an assassin is.

i disagree, if the enemy has a stance removal (such as a paragons wild throw) you should have a second stance to use

if the enemy team has a stance removing skill (especially one with range), they can null your spike by simply canceling your SoH from a range, its like holding a midget by the head and watching him fail to reach you (Yes im a ricky fan) you should carry a second stance as a backup for this contingency, popular choices are Feined neutraility and dark escape

blackbird71 · Nov 03, 2006, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Well, I'm glad to hear they've extended the range, it used to be that if i got much farther than about twice the agro circle from my start point, it could fail. It was kind of hit and miss, sometimes it worked others it didn't. It usually worked fine when not in combat, but when in combat and I needed a pullout, sometimes it left me stuck if I had gone too far. Probably a glitch.

No, I don't think I'm missing the point. Yes, I understand that I can control when I shadow step out (not in). But now it costs me an extra skill slot to do what I could do before without it. To me, that lessens the value of the skill. It used to be a hit and fade skill all on its own, now it requires the use of another skill to accomplish the same thing.

blackbird71 · Nov 03, 2006, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tainek

i disagree, if the enemy has a stance removal (such as a paragons wild throw) you should have a second stance to use

if the enemy team has a stance removing skill (especially one with range), they can null your spike by simply canceling your SoH from a range, its like holding a midget by the head and watching him fail to reach you (Yes im a ricky fan) you should carry a second stance as a backup for this contingency, popular choices are Feined neutraility and dark escape

While I appreciate the virtue of a backup, by that logic, I should have an extra lead, off hand, and dual attack in case they block one and my chain is interrupted, then I should have extra heals in case those are removed, and maybe another....

Good Gravy man! How many skill slots do you think there are in this game? The simple fact of the matter is, you can't have a backup for everything. Skills will be interrupted, cancelled, removed, or otherwise fail. You have to prioritize for what's important enough to back up, and it's not always a stance! Honestly, the only builds I've ever played with more than one stance were runners and a melee ranger.

As long as we're playing the "what if" game, what if the enemy has two stance removal skills? Or even one that recharges faster than your stances? I guess 3 stances is now a must for any build...

Congratulations, you've managed to pull me off topic

dgb · Nov 04, 2006, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird71

No, I don't think I'm missing the point. Yes, I understand that I can control when I shadow step out (not in). But now it costs me an extra skill slot to do what I could do before without it. To me, that lessens the value of the skill. It used to be a hit and fade skill all on its own, now it requires the use of another skill to accomplish the same thing.

It only used to be a viable skill at the utter scrubbiest levels of play. Sure it was a one skill hit and fade (sort of) but it had so many drawbacks that it was unplayable. It now requires two skills, but the majority of the drawbacks have been eliminated.

If you've created a build around the earlier interpretation, then you'll find it to be a nerf. On the otherhand I don't have a clue *why* you'd want to build around the earlier version, it was horrible. Like an extremely bad version of aura of displacement.

arredondo · Nov 04, 2006, 02:27 AM // 02:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tainek

i disagree, if the enemy has a stance removal (such as a paragons wild throw) you should have a second stance to use

if the enemy team has a stance removing skill (especially one with range), they can null your spike by simply canceling your SoH from a range, its like holding a midget by the head and watching him fail to reach you (Yes im a ricky fan) you should carry a second stance as a backup for this contingency, popular choices are Feined neutraility and dark escape

Feigned Neutrality is an enchant.

skillsbas8 · Nov 04, 2006, 02:39 AM // 02:39

It is in no way made worse. Increasing the length only gives benefits as you can always cancel it with a stance such as Viper's defense or dash. It is indeed a much more useful skill than it was before and it aids more than just sins now.