Curse

Thom Bangalter · Oct 01, 2006, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Brother Bloood I

If ur me... And no that energy mangement shouldnt be to much of a problem with the average 70-80 nrg then you would know that its pointless to bring elite e management unless ur being stupid and spamming high energy spells. You wanna know something about ether prodigy? it removes all enchantments! no surprise to some of you... but what if instead of losing ur enchantments u get to keep your attunement and use something around the lines of mind blast. If u didnt notice thats like nrg management with dmg.

Lets get back to ether prism though. This is definatley not a good skill compared to ether prodigy. Its to conditional especially since you usually need e management when your LOW on nrg... Focus swapping doesnt really solve the problem either. Maybe if u had -nrg focus and +nrg focus ud be able to get a good use of it. U still have to factor in the -25 nrg u use or the -10 if u use glyph lesser nrg.

Why isnt second wind a good nrg management? U first spam it until your 25-50% exhaustion(maintain this exhaustion). Then you should be smart and use non exhaustion spells and its a very good e management when coupled with your attunement.

Im not gonna bring up ele attune. But im going to bring up my favorite ele nrg management... GLYPH OF ENERGY!!!11 omg this is the best for eles. They can have high nrg exhaustion spells and use them with no regrets...

when it comes down to it ether prism isnt worth it... neither is any of the enchantment e management.(except for mantra of recall) Glyph of Energy is a glyph which helps against some interupts form mesmers. Second Wind can give u much more energy than ether prodigy. lets just leave it at that...

this is easily the stupidest post I've read in this section, which is saying ALOT.

glyph of energy is only marginally good, beyond managing meteor shower or earthquake exhaustion in halls, or for long pve missions.

frojack · Oct 01, 2006, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime

Thats right. Although the skills in "Energy Storage" have some good Energy Management properties. And with a new light on exhaustion, more energy=more exhaustion room so you can cast powerful EXhaustion spells. I got tot try an exhaustion build.

The benchmark for exhaustion skills is Obsidian Flame. This is a 'good' example of the power you get as a trade-off for your maximum energy.

In a heated battle, when you need someone dead and they have high armour, you can front-load Obs Flame every 5 seconds to get the job done. This comes at a huge cost. 3 successive casts total 30 exhaustion. That's 90 seconds for full exhaustion regeneration (or 84 if you consider cast time). It's a crude usage but it can work nicely.

The newly improved 'Mind' spells are great also. I usually run a suicidal amount of e-storage (14, or 89 total energy with a wand+off-hand combo) if I go 'pure' so I rarely have difficulty meeting the required condition. Mind Shock is exceptional as the damage is ridiculously good and the knockdown is a great interrupt. With a 1 second cast and an 8 second recharge, you can truly go nut's with this. It is also very tempting to do so ^_^.

Mind Burn is very nasty. The damage is almost forgettable next to the burning duration. At 7 seconds, it gives a total of 98 armour ignoring, degenerative damage with burning alone (-7 degen is 14 damage per second according to wiki). The recharge is even shorter so the temptation to front-load like mad is even worse.

Mind Freeze is the only fly in the ointment. Sure 90% slower is nice and all but the duration is not much better than a regular slow hex. Anyone who has ever used the Kite>Slow-hex>Spell>Kite (repeat) trick will understand how annoying this is. I'd sooner have standard speed reduction and a greater duration to ease my mobilty control needs. Ok but not great.

Maelstrom is probably the most basic since it's recharge is exactly the same as the time it takes to recover from the exhaustion is cause's. Not much use though this one. Requires American football style team 'plays' to get any real use out of it. Fun in AB though

.

Prodigy is obvious. As are Gale and Shock. Earthquake/Dragon Stomp almost forgivable, but other than that, all the other exhaustion spells are junk. Or at least junk because of it.

Chain Lighting: A 3 second cast, poor mans AOE. Why?

Ride the Lightning: Boggles the mind why this has it. Don't ask but I actually like this skill

. Even if it's a bit rubbish. Looks interesting on paper. I know! Orb then Ride-and-Shock(tm)! That is until you realise it's not even a real teleport, and all you needed to do was use MindShock and saved yourself half the exhaustion and 66% of the energy cost.

Lightning Surge: Oh look. Hex removal. I just wasted my time. No Armour penetration either. Naughty, naughty Anet...

Second Wind: (Second Wind _-_)

Energy Boon: Even worse than Second Wind. Now that's impressive.

Exhaustion is very cool when used in the right way. It would be nice to get an analogous mechanic to 'cheat' the regeneration though. A reduction/percental tax evasion rune pehaps. Or a 20% tax evasion weapon mod even. Something to add a level of 'chance' to the equation. It all feels a little too rigid as it is currently.

Edits: Love posting late at night. I feel like a retard. Appologies for the grammatical errors...

Phades · Oct 02, 2006, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Once your energy is depleted, what does that empty capacity do for you? Nothing. Until you get to take a break or fire off some emanagement, refilling your bar, that capacity doesn't do anything for you. Hence, exhaustion really doesn't matter until you've picked up enough of it that it starts to cut into your *current* energy. Until then, the difference between exhausted energy capacity and empty energy capacity is irrelevant.

There are a few skills that are very cheap, but compensate for their low price by causing exhaustion. Those let you effectively 'cheat' on costs, by spending empty energy instead of current energy.

Thats part of the benefit and part of the problem. In order for eles to try and make up for shortcommings they are kinda forced to use the exhaustion causers to fill gaps between the big energy cost skills. Conversly other professions get to use otherwise "overpriced" skills at the exact same rate over time with a discount because of exhaustion. No mesmer would use gale if it was the full price, instead of the virutal price when considering the exhaustion mechanic. The same would be true with warriors and assassins as well in reference to shock. Most professions get some form of scaling with skill increase to help offset other "drawbacks", while exhausiton is static across all professions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

But when you look at the Mind skills, or Gale, or Obsidian Flame - those are all really cheap and spammable, they just cost you exhaustion instead of energy. So once you have some empty capacity, you can start working your exhaustion down in parallel. As long as it never cuts into your current energy, you haven't really lost anything.

Unfortunatly having extra empty capacity works against the mind skills ability to stick to a casting profession over time. Against things like monks, over time, it forces a reliance on other professions to drain that energy out of the monk instead of the damage and shutdown period causing the drain with skills like mindshock. Quite frequently, it feels more like it either adds to the kill of the target or does nothing substantial over time and only creates more downtime. There really isnt anything in between.

I Brother Bloood I · Oct 02, 2006, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Thom learn to read and let it sink in real good then try testing it and then post again...

EDIT - BTW i know e storage isnt exactly nrg management but if ur going to run the good e management for ele u need it. Even if i dont use e management attunements still work well. I still dont see why u all second wind haters... if i need nrg management its 1. glyph of nrg 2. ether prodigy/second wind 3. Ele Attune+X Attune. Even if u use ether prism at high nrg mantaining it before u get low it starts to become overkill and not worth it. Plus if ur saying ur not gonna use high nrg spells than whats the point on using overkill nrg management where u can get utitlity out of more dmg or no exhaustion. + u dont have to use glyph of energy on high nrg skills u can use it to just get rid of exhaustion which saves u 10 nrg making lets say obsidian flame cost u 3 nrg instead of 13 (2 back from the attunement if u were wondering).

Hyprodimus Prime · Oct 02, 2006, 02:29 AM // 02:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Brother Bloood I

Them learn to read and let it sink in real good then try testing it and then post again...

EDIT - BTW i know e storage isnt exactly nrg management but if ur going to run the good e management for ele u need it. Even if i dont use e management attunements still work well. I still dont see why u all second wind haters... if i need nrg management its 1. glyph of nrg 2. ether prodigy/second wind 3. Ele Attune+X Attune. Even if u use ether prism at high nrg mantaining it before u get low it starts to become overkill and not worth it. Plus if ur saying ur not gonna use high nrg spells than whats the point on using overkill nrg management where u can get utitlity out of more dmg or no exhaustion. + u dont have to use glyph of energy on high nrg skills u can use it to just get rid of exhaustion which saves u 10 nrg making lets say obsidian flame cost u 3 nrg instead of 13 (2 back from the attunement if u were wondering).

Second Wind can be good at times, im trying to get it now, but I cant seem to get a group and henchies wont work, as they bunch near the AoE spells. Soloing is imposible too, as the boss knocks you down and its imposible to recast enchants in time. The thing with exhaustion is that its a little hard to use effectively with Second wind. You have to be at around 30-40 exhaustion for you to get some good out of it, that means you need to use high energy spells first like doing Mark of Rodgort spams and then using your exhaustion skills like meteor and Obsidian Flame for the extra punch. By then you should have around 30 exhaustion which you can now use for SW. To work efficiently SW requires your entire skill bar as a combo. Maybe 2 high energy skills to spam, 2 exhaustion skill to use after low energy, a healing skill, Second wind, res and an optional.

You need exhaustion for energy, and if you dont use high energy skills first, using the exhaustion spells is a waste.

How did other people get Second Wind? WHat tactics to beat the boss? With hench or Real People?

The thing with Ether Prism is that you can spend 2/3 of your total energy before needing to recast EP, if you have 83 energy, you can spend 28+12(4/3)=44 energy before recasting. You have 10 seconds to spend that 44 energy, 44/10=4.4 energy per second.

This is equivalent to 4.4x3=13.2 pips of regen. id says thats better then Ether Prodigy, no exhaustion, no health loss, no enchantment.

As long as the spell isnt interupted you will be fine. Just bring along Glyph of Concentration or Mantra of Resolve. You can spam heal party, air spike, nuke, anything just as long as its withing 10 sec. EP isnt perfect, but its powerful as long as you can do math quickly. So dont cast Mark of Rodgort when Ep is 2 sec away from charging and you have 62 energy left. At 83 energy wait till you have around 50 energy before you go casting it.

I think Elementalists are an Aristocratal Proffesion. The "peasents" have to deal with less energy and use energy management more, where as eles spend spend spend. With EP the ones with high energy get richer and the ones with low energy get poorer. We also horde our healing skills to ourselves via putting it in our primary profession. Not that thay are any good...but then again we get served by monks

Anyways just a thought.

Thom Bangalter · Oct 02, 2006, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Brother Bloood I

Thom learn to read and let it sink in real good then try testing it and then post again...

EDIT - BTW i know e storage isnt exactly nrg management but if ur going to run the good e management for ele u need it. Even if i dont use e management attunements still work well. I still dont see why u all second wind haters... if i need nrg management its 1. glyph of nrg 2. ether prodigy/second wind 3. Ele Attune+X Attune. Even if u use ether prism at high nrg mantaining it before u get low it starts to become overkill and not worth it. Plus if ur saying ur not gonna use high nrg spells than whats the point on using overkill nrg management where u can get utitlity out of more dmg or no exhaustion. + u dont have to use glyph of energy on high nrg skills u can use it to just get rid of exhaustion which saves u 10 nrg making lets say obsidian flame cost u 3 nrg instead of 13 (2 back from the attunement if u were wondering).

You can't tell me to learn to read when you're posts have such horrendous spelling and grammar.

I feel like there's something there to comment in, I just can't read it.

All I know is, ether prodigy is far more efficient for energy management. Dual attunements are still better though incredibly fragile to strips and interrupts, and if I was playing NR/tranq or something I'd go glyph in most situations, depending on the build.

frojack · Oct 02, 2006, 12:24 PM // 12:24

Killing the turtle dragon (can't remember his name) can be very difficult with henchies if you just treat him and his entourage like any regular mob. For an elementalist tough, it's a lot easier than it is for other classes. I remember getting seriously hurt when I henched that area with my Ritualist. When I say all those dragons it was daunting enough. Then my heart stopped as the henchies leroy'ed in...

All you have to do is go as a warder mixed with a farming style set up. Take...

Ward of Stability
Ward Against Elements
Kinetic Armour
Armour of Earth
Stone Daggers
Obsidian Flame
Elemental Attunement
Resurrection Chant

Make sure you bring the mesmer and the interrupter. When you get there, lure away the regular non-dragon mob. They just provide extra annoyance. Especially since the ritualist spirit and assassin buff. After they are dead, move onto the main course. pre-cast Kinetic and hit Aura every so often to make sure you retain it. Agro the Saltsprays with a longbow and start dropping your buffs. Stability first. You'll be surprised how much damage hench healers mitigate when they aren't on the floor the whole time.
Since the turtles are melee (I think) and the Saltsprays like to 'Ride' in and drop Inferno (nasty combo) they will all come to you (interestingly they also use Lighting Touch. Only ever seen em' use it once and I copied the Ride-&-Touch(tm) for AB. It's quite fun. Especially with a water hex like Rust ^_^).

As long as the wards are up, your henchies won't all die instantly. Since you yourself are armoured up to the max, you shouldn't take too much damage. This allows you to maintain the wards and res anyone as soon as they drop. Spec at least 6-8 in Healing Prayers to res your monks with enough energy to heal straight away. At all other times spam the hell out of Stone daggers. Kill the Saltspray's first (they are bastards). Then the turtles (only real threat is knockdown which is covered). Then pump the boss himself with all you've got.
By this time you'll have dead henchies. Leave all but the monks, mesmer, and interrupter dead, and just focus on dropping him. This is where you can actually see first-hand how awesome Obsidian Flame is. Disregard exhaustion and front-load it till he's dead. You should get about 4 use's before you need to scale back your assault, as you'll be at around 40+ energy and 30-40 exhaustion (need to keep up your defenses with your current energy pool). When not using the black flame, spam Stone daggers instead.
He should go down pretty quickly after his buddies are dead. His double damage will give you a dent or 2 but you shouldn't get below 50% hp. as you have a total of 230 armour (240 with Tempest).

Took me 2 attempts admittedly to do this. I made the grave error of leaving the other mob alive (Spirit of Disenchantment + Bloodsong. Even before the buff).

Have fun

.

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyprodimus Prime

I think Elementalists are an Aristocratal Proffesion. The "peasents" have to deal with less energy and use energy management more, where as eles spend spend spend. With EP the ones with high energy get richer and the ones with low energy get poorer. We also horde our healing skills to ourselves via putting it in our primary profession. Not that thay are any good...but then again we get served by monks Anyways just a thought.

Funny you should say that. Ironically it's the elementalists who are in dire need of e-management improvements. I'd say they are in fact the peasants. Especially when rangers get a better version of Elemental Attunement built into their primary attribute. While Necro's get free energy when shit die's ^_^.

Symbol · Oct 02, 2006, 01:01 PM // 13:01

Elementalists don't NEED more elite e-management. There's plenty of it to go around already, and now with ether prism I can't fathom a build that actually needs more energy than ether prism can provide (dual attunements was already infi-energy for mono-element builds).

What elementalists NEED is for the majority of the prophecies and factions damage skills to not suck.

SnipiousMax · Oct 02, 2006, 02:06 PM // 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

Ironically it's the elementalists who are in dire need of e-management improvements.

Ele's have access to the most powerful E-management in the game, and the incredibly powerful mechanic of Exshaustion.

Thom Bangalter · Oct 02, 2006, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Symbol

What elementalists NEED is for the majority of the prophecies and factions damage skills to not suck.

and some better self defense in the fire line to make it viable. Water has snares, air has blind and speed buffs, earth has wards and armor buffs, fire has...well, it has...um...

frojack · Oct 02, 2006, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by SnipiousMax

Ele's have access to the most powerful E-management in the game, and the incredibly powerful mechanic of Exshaustion.

Yeah. If you use your elite slot. That's the point see. A damage class should really be using a damage elite, but I suppose nobody uses them for that in 'pvp that matters' do they?

SnipiousMax · Oct 02, 2006, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack

Yeah. If you use your elite slot. That's the point see. A damage class should really be using a damage elite, but I suppose nobody uses them for that in 'pvp that matters' do they?

What Elite damage spell would you use? Fireball is good enough for the role people expect you to play.

And don't tell me that there is nothing that an E-prodigy fueled elementalist can do in PvE.

I Brother Bloood I · Oct 02, 2006, 06:55 PM // 18:55

Frojack in ur build u forgot cap sig :-P

Quote:

Originally Posted by frojack
Ward of Stability
Ward Against Elements
Kinetic Armour
Armour of Earth
Stone Daggers
Obsidian Flame
Elemental Attunement
Resurrection Chant

Quote:

Originally Posted By Hyprodimus Prime
This is equivalent to 4.4x3=13.2 pips of regen. id says thats better then Ether Prodigy, no exhaustion, no health loss, no enchantment.

ZOMG WHAT DID I SAY SECOND WIND IS BETTER THAN ETHER PRODIGY! :-P
NUMBERS DONT LIE!(Most of the time...)

frojack · Oct 02, 2006, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Brother Bloood I

Frojack in ur build u forgot cap sig :-P

ZOMG WHAT DID I SAY SECOND WIND IS BETTER THAN ETHER PRODIGY! :-P
NUMBERS DONT LIE!(Most of the time...)

! Priceless ^_^. Now I can't even remember what I didn't take (or perhaps this was when I wanted that powerstone). Must have been one of the armour mods. Probably Armour of Earth. Now that is indeed funny

.

@SnipiousMax:
What elite you ask? Mindshock (which I in fact do take, and just deal with the e-problems). I've also been known to use Ride the Lightning but that was one of those fun days

. I've run Water Trident, Mist Form, even Mirror Of Ice on occasion. Mind Freeze sometimes also. I generally never run fire in pvp.
I occasionally use Obs. Flesh in Arena's to piss off mesmers and other casters, but those days were few enough as it was. Now however with Nightfall coming, I probably won't use it again. Incidentally Unsteady Ground can be interesting when playing a warder/Obs Flamer especially with Aftershock. There's just more choice than pigeon-hole energy elite. It's more fun to play.

I know Prodigy is awesome. I do not discount that. However I don't see rangers or Necro's using energy elites. I'm just sick of having to use an elite for energy to achieve optimal performance when I really shouldn't have to...

I Brother Bloood I · Oct 02, 2006, 11:02 PM // 23:02

Ill tell u my secret i taught my friend the solo for warrior and then he soloed with some help from me healing and i capped giving him 5k and the powerstone that dropped. I think u can find the build in farming section.(for soloing that is)

Trylo · Oct 03, 2006, 01:38 AM // 01:38

so much controversy, im so sorry istarted this threat

it seems as though having 13 or so in ES, then 12(+X+1) in element, or even 12 in a 2ndary can prove to be useful (look at the conjure phantasm idea)...

but this is defineately a skill worth capping, and glyph of concentration ftw?

Vermilion Okeanos · Oct 03, 2006, 01:42 AM // 01:42

I don't understand how anyone can try to use ride the lightning (aside boss monsters).

Although it still has the 25% armor penetration that it didn't mention in its description, but it is still crap. The only reason to use it is touch range skills, but it is not quite possible to keep up with the attribute spread having air/e-storage/2ndary and still be efficient, while shock and lightning touch is easily replaced by better skill that is ranged.

I did try to "have fun" with RtL, but even the aftercast delay were crap and can not instantly touch someone who you just teleported to if he/she is moving. Not only that, the cast time is 1 sec, which along with the aftercast, it is really difficult to fit RtL into any combo. What sux even more is its "elite" status.

If my ele only know 2 elites, one is energy boon another is RtL, I would take EB any day.

Sorry, this is more like a RtL rant.

Ensign · Oct 03, 2006, 04:29 AM // 04:29

Ride the Lightning having that aftercast is really annoying - the Assassin skills that do the same thing do not. I could see RtL being used on a Warrior or Assassin actually as a damage + Death's Charge if they couldn't get away immediately.

Just tack it onto the list of really annoying, unneccessary drawbacks on skills.

Peace,
-CxE

Thom Bangalter · Oct 03, 2006, 09:26 AM // 09:26

When I first saw "ride the lightning", I was so friggin excited. Teleport+shock! amazing! Too bad it blows.

Cebe · Oct 03, 2006, 02:33 PM // 14:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

When I first saw "ride the lightning", I was so friggin excited. Teleport+shock! amazing! Too bad it blows.

Aww, I LOVE that skill!

It is such a fun skill. It is a shame it's not the mose sensible skill to have on your skillbar and has very little use in PvE...The only time I used it effectively was in the Jade Quarry...some elementalist from the Luxon side was chasing me trying to kill me...I stopped, hit Ride the Lightening, and with a few other touch skills (tenai's wind, lightening tough...) he dropped...now that was so much fun!

Sorry for taking this a little off topic - i just LOVE RTL!