Curse

Zuzubee · Oct 22, 2006, 09:27 AM // 09:27

Ive just noticed Sir on the Edge's post which is a similar build but with different secondary so I think it justifies a seperate thread.

Hammer crit build using Way of the Assassin.

CS 16 Hammer 12 SA 4

Irresistible Blow
Crushing Blow
Hammer Bash
Optional
Way of the Assassin(e)
Assassin's Remedy
Shadow Refuge
Res Sig/Optional

Plays the same as a bunny thumper except you have a 65% crit chance and continual condition removal from AR.

TadaceAce · Oct 22, 2006, 07:41 PM // 19:41

bunny thumper has IAS... and ferocious strike... and the expertise to spam irresistable blow...

the thing about a good build is the skills compliment each other... the only skills in your build that remotely compliment each other is hammer bash and crushing blow... sir on the edge's A/D build is good.... yours... isn't... sorry.

Zuzubee · Oct 22, 2006, 08:20 PM // 20:20

I dont mind contructive criticism but your just an idiot.

You do play an assasin right?, therefore surely you would know assassins have 4e regen and crits return 3 energy meaning you can spamm 5e attacks as constantly as a R/W. Crit skills = energy = spammable attacks = constant condition removal.
If that isnt skills complimenting each other then what the hell is? maybe you should go look up the word in the dictionary.

Bunny has IAS? no sh^t sherlock but you can have any number of skills in its place, Expose defenses, Caltrops, Crippling Dagger etc etc.

Sorry but if you had genuinly deconstructed my build and shown it to be unworkable I would of accepted my theorycrafting as wrong and moved on.

But your just an idiot troll who has no idea what hes talking about so kindly gtfo out of my thread you pathetic useless troll.

TadaceAce · Oct 22, 2006, 08:44 PM // 20:44

oh ok sir you go ahead and use this crappy build. There are very very very very few melee builds that don't suck without ias and this is not one of them.

it pains me to even see you compare this build to a bunny thumper.

SAPhoenix · Oct 22, 2006, 09:41 PM // 21:41

Well as far as I can see, nice damage and the condition removal is a plus but if those enchants get stripped, gg. That leaves you without your improved crit hit ability and no other way to remove your conditions.

With all the anti-enchant skills that Nightfall will offer, a build like this will be susceptible to all kinds of abuse.

The main differences (not meant to upset or offend) between your build and Thumpers is that they aren't reliant on enchantments to manage their energy, their source of condition removal doesn't cost any energy (Antidote Sig, doesn't get rid of everything, but it does get rid of blind, which can screw a thumper over), they have defensive stances, and can be pretty relentless at applying pressure, due to IAS and the ability to spam attacks without really having to be too concerned about their energy. So they're covered offensively and defensively.

As it currently is, your build is mainly offensive, apart from the use of Assassin's remedy for conditions and Shadow Refuge for healing. Condition removal is all fine and dandy, but if a warrior or sin is bearing down on you and starts knocking you around, what are your defensive options? Your Shadow Arts is at 4, not nearly enough to get much out of Shadow Refuge. There's no run skill (I would assume that's where the optional comes in). Even with a run skill, if they snare you it's pretty much all over. Also, using Hammer Bash entails being in combat for longer than you might like, depending on the circumstances, just to charge it for a KD.

You might want to rethink a few things here and there. Maybe add some form of defense, or at least a way of escaping if things get hairy. Perhaps Critical Defenses, considering your crit hit chance is so high, and Signet of Malice for condition removal? Just a thought.

Yuan The Painful · Oct 22, 2006, 10:01 PM // 22:01

well obviously the above posters have never even tried a build like this...
after i beat the game with my sin i went to pvp, and i must say i was sick of gps -hoto - fs - tf

so i decided to test stuff.. obivously the crit barrager was good.. but i didnt enjoy.. so i also took the thumper idea to assassin

now critical strikes works for any weapon, and so do some of its skills... i ran this:

15 or 16 crit strikes
12 hammer
4-i think it was 7 shadow arts

irresistble blow
hammer bash
crushing blow
sharpen daggers
Seeping wound - elite
shadow of haste - (IMO this makes up for IAS, as thumpers have no speed buff, this allows the sin to keep up to them, and keep pummeling)
shadow refuge
res signet

other options include: frenzy ( have to be very careful), flurry,

the build actually has huge power... with crit strikes it was very common for my irresistble blow for hit 100+ dmg, and the bleeding from sharpen daggers and the additional -4 regen from seeping wound provided pressure, which i felt made up for the lack of IAS... not to mention i nearly always got critical hits...

i will admit tho the build is still lacking defense... and for those non-believers i got a glad point with this... too bad i dont have screenshots...

Zuzubee · Oct 22, 2006, 10:14 PM // 22:14

Thank you for a constructive response SAPhoenix.

I agree enchantment removal could be a problem for this build depending on how widespread it becomes post NF release. If in the event it turns out to not be too rampant your enchant would be fairly safe and energy would not be an issue either.

For defense you have lots of options, 2 slots are interchangable - the empty, and the heal, depending on current requirements. You could take any warrior stance or critical defenses for example to serve that purpose. While a R/W hits more often with TF, you hit harder most of the time from crits. Any damage/pressure deficit that might exist could possibly be met by bleeding from sharpen daggers for example, or a cripple attack keeping your target in range more often.

Shadow Refuge was just an obligatory heal. I only put it there to show that that slot can be used for healing. Certain people.... will instantly disregard a build just because you dont put some form of heal in its default line up. There are multiple heal options open to a A/W and you can adjust your attributes accordingly.

I would like to point out that the default R/W Bunny Thumper has no healing, no defense, and no run speed or cripple potential in its setup. Three rather gaping flaws.
Even if you drop something it only has room for 1 of the above which by making room for leaves your petextremely vulnerable, which the whole build relies on.
A Bunny with defense is one with no healing, a Bunny with healing is one with no defense, a Bunny with healing or defense or sprint is one with a vulnerable pet who if killed gimps the whole build.

Scourgey · Oct 23, 2006, 12:21 AM // 00:21

Like other people have said, a bunny thumper will have a lot higher damage than your assassin build because of ias and pet damage. Hammer bash will recharge a lot faster on a bunny thumper build than yours meaning a lot more annoying KD.

Your condition removal relies on hitting, which isn't possible if you are blinded (the thing that stops most melee).

If you want your build to be about pressure then it is sub-par to the bunny thumper.

Zuzubee · Oct 23, 2006, 12:42 AM // 00:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scourgey

Like other people have said, a bunny thumper will have a lot higher damage than your assassin build because of ias and pet damage. Hammer bash will recharge a lot faster on a bunny thumper build than yours meaning a lot more annoying KD.

Your condition removal relies on hitting, which isn't possible if you are blinded (the thing that stops most melee).

If you want your build to be about pressure then it is sub-par to the bunny thumper.

I disagree to an extent. The biggest problem with the bunny is that you can kite them and theres nothing they can do about it. IAS is all well and good when your target is just standing there letting you beat on them but that is rarely the case.
While I wont know this builds dps until NF is out and I can compare it directly I dont think there will be that much in it, and the build can bring other things to the table to compensate like cripple or bleed.

Also the ability to repeatedly remove, poison, bleed, deepwound, weakness, cripple and disease is being severely overlooked and under appreciated here. All these conditions can and do easily kill or cripple a R/W which he can do nothing about.

TadaceAce · Oct 23, 2006, 01:25 AM // 01:25

Repeatedly? You attack once every 2.5 seconds and only have a 1 in 2 chance to crit.. thats one condition removal every 5 seconds if your standing there hitting someone...

Your only damage is irresistable blow and to an extent crushing blow.... increased run speed in no way even compares to IAS, even with increased run speed it is still in your best interest to switch targets if something is kiting you hard, in which case it doesn't mean anything, it adds maybe 1 more hit before you switch targets. Of course I'm talking about GvG here, if your playing RA all the power to you to chase around that last wammo who's running in circles. Even that argument is negated by the fact thumper will be using hammer bash twice as much given IAS and ferocious strike... that more than makes up for your few extra hits from additional run speed.

SAPhoenix · Oct 23, 2006, 06:35 AM // 06:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yuan The Painful

well obviously the above posters have never even tried a build like this...

Contrary to what you might think, I have run a hammer build before. My build was also mainly offensive (no defense, Dash for getting in and out, and Shadow Refuge for healing). I didn't use it for pressure. I used it to spike, shut down and degen (which is, IMO, what sins excel at. If ANET wanted them to be DPS machines, they would have given them a IAS).

I used Sharpen Daggers, Wild Blow, Iron Palm, Crushing Blow, Entangling Asp and Irresistable Blow. Wild Blow gave me guaranteed bleeding application, followed by Iron Palm to KD, then Crushing Blow for deep wound, Entangling Asp (2nd KD and poison, brilliant snare too because of the range) and Irresistable Blow.

I took out stance users (again thanks to Wild Blow), casters, sins, etc. Didn't work too well on warriors but heck, I wasn't targetting them anyway, only if they came after me, which is when I would hit them with the full combo and retreat. Worked well with a monk backing me, but to be honest, I still prefer my daggers.

I don't doubt that your build was powerful offensively, but using Shadow of Haste to chase targets without a stance cancel? A bit unreliable, don't you think? You don't really have any control over it, so if it ends while you're going after an important target, you lose your pressure. Besides, that's better suited to a dagger sin then anyway (SoH, spike, spike again, it ends but you've done your job). You'd be better off with something like Dash or Dark Escape.

Also, GPS, HoTO, FS, TF isn't all there is to a dagger sin.

Scourgey · Oct 23, 2006, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuzubee

I disagree to an extent. The biggest problem with the bunny is that you can kite them and theres nothing they can do about it. IAS is all well and good when your target is just standing there letting you beat on them but that is rarely the case.

If they kite they aren't doing damage/healing, if it's a monk, they will stop at some point providing there is damage pressure elsewhere. They also will take damage from the pet which ends up about 50 or so with fercious strike every 8 seconds or so. Like someone else said, you don't keep chasing a kiter if he doesn't stop and not enough damage is being done by the rest of the team.

Also condition removal on warriors is not needed on melee heavy teams, as you'd expect a monk to have draw conditions or restore conditions. Which is much more reliable than having to hit (you cannot remove conditions from a crippling shot ranger with your build, or stance evaders).