Curse

Rustjive · Mar 16, 2006, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tortoise

The public seems to think it's biggest con is enchant strips. Dealing with them can however easily be done, especially if you're using GoR-DS combo on a prot monk. Even if you consistently layer your DS with a prot spirit the GoR-DS combo will still gain you a lot more energy then any other form of energy management. A good GoR-DS monk can cope with a drain enchant.

Sure, good GoR/DS monks can cope with enchant removal, but their ability is limited by the skill itself. Many e-denial mesmers will carry drain enchantment (or a shatter), and there is a spot where GoR/DS monks aren't self-reliant - right after they cast GoR/DS. With the aftercast factored in, DS is a prime candidate for stripping (1s total, while Drain Enchant is 1s, before FC). This is DS *by itself*. When you factor in using Glyph of Renewal, this screams to the e-denial mesmer: "Watch me now!" And without another enchant-er to assist, almost every time the DS will be removed.

D Fault · Mar 18, 2006, 09:02 AM // 09:02

What about melandrus resilience?
Seeing as just about every other form of energy management has been talked about I just thought I'd mention it

JR · Mar 18, 2006, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by D Fault

What about melandrus resilience?
Seeing as just about every other form of energy management has been talked about I just thought I'd mention it

Every other *good* form.

Slooty Booty · Mar 20, 2006, 11:19 AM // 11:19

So let's get to the bottom line! Let's hear which energy management setup you'll be bringing into GvG.

EDrain - Nice return, no floundering after being rez'd, instant gratification, no cost to heal a 20% health sac, no CoP + Recasting boon in a pinch, can be paired with inspired hex for added management, faster recharge bonus from weapons actually helps....

'nuff said

JR · Mar 20, 2006, 11:48 AM // 11:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slooty Booty

So let's get to the bottom line! Let's hear which energy management setup you'll be bringing into GvG.

EDrain - Nice return, no floundering after being rez'd, instant gratification, no cost to heal a 20% health sac, no CoP + Recasting boon in a pinch, can be paired with inspired hex for added management, faster recharge bonus from weapons actually helps....

'nuff said

Quoted for truth.

Not to mention the slight e-denial factor.

Byron · Mar 20, 2006, 07:04 PM // 19:04

I'm having trouble keeping up with all these energy management threads, so here's my opinion:

E-drain is fantastic in that its quick, available, and brings a little drain to enemies. However, this requires that the enemy has energy, and also requires the monk to find a suitable target. Target searching could likely distract from the more pressing monk duties.

MoR is the gambler's answer, and that's why I love it. Used on a boon/prot it can be a lifesaver, but it can also be an impediment with its 10 energy cost and large possibility to be interrupted (btw, distracting shot, FTW). Id consider it bad for a WoH or any monk who doesnt have much self-protection capability to speak of.

PnH is awaiting a future skill balance. If it weren't elite, it might be worth having.

GoR/DS seems foreign to me, so I won't comment.

Channeling is my HA favorite. Sometimes I'll throw out a useless guardian or orison of healing to gain 2 energy. I don't see it being very useful outside HA though.

IMO:
In HA, always channeling.
GvG boon/prots hit up MoR/CoP
GvG healers get E-drain

**EDIT: Order of Blood, RIP.

Rustjive · Mar 21, 2006, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Actually, even better than distracting shot is Power Leak nowadays...talk about being mana screwed...

Xia · Mar 21, 2006, 05:57 PM // 17:57

Can you please do this for ferocious strike?

JR · Mar 22, 2006, 10:18 AM // 10:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xia

Can you please do this for ferocious strike?

Monk energy management. Ferocious Strike is hardly a viable option for that.

Tortoise · Mar 22, 2006, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rustjive

Sure, good GoR/DS monks can cope with enchant removal, but their ability is limited by the skill itself. Many e-denial mesmers will carry drain enchantment (or a shatter), and there is a spot where GoR/DS monks aren't self-reliant - right after they cast GoR/DS. With the aftercast factored in, DS is a prime candidate for stripping (1s total, while Drain Enchant is 1s, before FC). This is DS *by itself*. When you factor in using Glyph of Renewal, this screams to the e-denial mesmer: "Watch me now!" And without another enchant-er to assist, almost every time the DS will be removed.

Both RoF and Prot Spirit are 1/4 sec casts. As far as I know DS only has a 1/4sec aftercast, making sure you've got another enchant up 0.5 seconds after casting your DS. Unless the stripping mesmer actually starts casting his drain enchant as soon as he sees the GoR there is no way he can cast drain enchant in time and if he does then he has a high chance of not stripping anything.

Not too mention that it also isn't that hard to simply walk out of the mesmer's casting range.

The problem I faced most when playing a GoR - DS monk was that I often found myself diverted due to the constant spamming of skills. Not something to take lightly. It's something you can work around off course but still, quite nasty

.

Rustjive · Mar 22, 2006, 08:19 PM // 20:19

Aftercast is .75s.

Inconvenience is inconvenience, especially when your combo takes almost 3s to get up before a cover enchant can be applied.

Xia · Mar 23, 2006, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Monk energy management. Ferocious Strike is hardly a viable option for that.

but still

mariano · Mar 23, 2006, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheel

EDrain

Benefits
Denies Enemy Energy

Has the most efficient net energy swing

Provides instant energy

Low initial investment of energy

Has no breakpoint at 10 Inspiration, allowing you to run 9 Inspiration to the same effect letting you free up some points for your other attributes.

Drawbacks
Forces you to overextend your position sometimes

1s cast is susceptible to interruption, and being trained on a warrior

Conditional upon the enemy being drained to actually have energy to drain

Nice explanation. I dislike particularly to have to switch to a foe and that ED "Forces you to overextend your position sometimes". But, at present, with Offering of Blood being so bloody it seems to me a may be pertinent choice for a protection boon monk (20% sacrifice, why? just a 15% may have been enough, and this way it would not have caused almost all monks becoming secondary mesmer, I think).

Quote:

Mantra of Recall

Benefits
Highest energy return (outside of OoB where health sac is unconsidered)

Provides another Enchantment to be removed by CoP, removing an additional 1 Hex & Condition, and a larger heal

Cover enchantment for Divine Boon

Drawbacks
High intial energy cost

1s cast is susceptible to interruption, and being trained on a warrior

Energy return is delayed

Susceptible to being Stipped/Shattered/Drained when you don't need the energy, wasting the 10e intial investment, and wasting time it's recharging after it's removed. This also leads to easier exploitation of energy denial on the character with MoR

Well, here I do not see things exactly the same...
I agree that it combines well with Contemplation of Purity, for: a) CoP may be used to terminate it. Terminating MoR is the way to get energy, and as MoR has a big energy return which may be relevant even if it is terminated with CoP you get energy. As a matter of fact, if MoR recharges faster than normal, then CoP is one option to get a profit of this fast recharge (another one is that a foe shatters MoR

). Under energy denial MoR is a help, in my view, as you may either be holding it or terminate it (I do not like the solution of swaping items... but, well, you may do it). A monk being resurrected, may cast MoR + CoP to get some extra energy. b) MoR + CoP = remove 1 hex and 1 condition.

But, there are some additional draw backs:
Using Mantra of Recall with staffs with a 20% modifier for enchantments, delays the time at which you get the return of energy from Mantra of Recall.
Using Mantra of Recall together with recharge modifiers, because bad playability, as this implies that the recharge time is different than the enchantment's duration, and the player must be aware of that, for casting Mantra of Recall after the end of the enchantment, not after the recharge (this is true either for a noob as for a skilled player). And, this is true, also, when using a staff of enchanting. Notice: mantaining Mantra of Recall is wasting energy.
All the benefits mentioned above about MoR + CoP are useless for a prot boon monk, as CoP would end Divine Boon as well.

In my view, these problems are not good for a prot boon monk who, likely, may wish to have a staff of enchanting and by definition keeps a mantained enchantment. And for any player, included mesmers, as usage becomes complicated if recharge time may get modified.

I would like a mention of the monks' skills for energy management and suggestions about making them more effective.
Say, for example, Divine Spirit + Glyph of Renewal (which I have read mentioned somewhere),... my view is that it would be better if Divine Spirit became a signet. Or, Peace and Harmony + Inspired hex or something like that... think, I dislike that Peace and Harmony is an enchantment, why not a skill?; mch like rangers who have Troll Unguent a skill for self healing, monks might, similarly, have an energy skill for self energizing. (And disallow items swaping during fights, this is a suggestion

)

What do you think?

Zhou Feng · Mar 23, 2006, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Okay quick question if you use Energy Drain as a healer what are the best healing skills to take?

I tested out with
Dwayna's Kiss/Orison of Healing/Healing Touch/Heal Other/Inspired Hex/Energy Drain/Contemplation of Purity/Divine Boon and it worked pretty well but Im not sure Id like to replace WoH with HO... any suggestions?

xcutioner · Mar 23, 2006, 08:05 PM // 20:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

MoR is the gambler's answer, and that's why I love it. Used on a boon/prot it can be a lifesaver, but it can also be an impediment with its 10 energy cost and large possibility to be interrupted (btw, distracting shot, FTW). Id consider it bad for a WoH or any monk who doesnt have much self-protection capability to speak of.

As I monk I never carry woh and mor.

Zhou Feng · Mar 23, 2006, 11:33 PM // 23:33

You cant carry woh and mor together silly they are elites.

Hundbert · Mar 26, 2006, 02:45 AM // 02:45

Quote:

What about melandrus resilience?
Seeing as just about every other form of energy management has been talked about I just thought I'd mention it

It's requires you to bring draw conditions to fuel it. I assume we are all discussing energy management for the 8 vs 8 arenas. But in random/team arenas a melandru monk works pretty well.

That's because people always put alot of hexes and conditions on you (as the only monk) so you are flooding with energy. This may be a problem outside ra/ta when you are not the only monk.

By the way. Has everyone noticed melandru's was improved in one of the more recent updates. It now gives +3 health regen for each hex/condition. Pretty sweet.

dry_water · Mar 29, 2006, 12:56 AM // 00:56

Does this include using 20/20 items? When I play monk I always switch to a 20 recharge and 20/20 weapon set. Energy Drain benefits more from this than MoR. For MoR, you can use CoP to end it quickly and use it again but the problem is having to use CoP and recasting Divine Boon.

wheel · Mar 29, 2006, 06:19 AM // 06:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by dry_water

Does this include using 20/20 items? When I play monk I always switch to a 20 recharge and 20/20 weapon set. Energy Drain benefits more from this than MoR. For MoR, you can use CoP to end it quickly and use it again but the problem is having to use CoP and recasting Divine Boon.

MoR does not benefit from fast recharges on a boon prot monk through CoP. The other values are with dual 20 recharge items. Read the original post.

yuna of spira · Mar 30, 2006, 01:22 PM // 13:22

I think many have villified my opinion that all forms of energy management except MoR and ED are weaker in MOST cases for gvg. I think in high level gvg it really comes down to MoR or ED. Personally, i think this type of organizing energy management by these numbers is ignorant even though drawbacks and advantages are posted. It seems these advantages and drawbacks that are not numerical hold more value than are being given credit for. I'll explain why i prefer MoR most of the time, but I am not saying, like others in this post that my preference must therefore be the best hands down.

As others have said, the CoP/MoR combo is very very good for monks who have something like wenslauss faith or something that can give a fast recharge, as well as against hexing groups. Shame's biggest enemy is the MoR/CoP combo. There are many other situations in which hexing is easily taken care of with this combo (dont forget, CoP gives 60hp as heal and only has 1/4 cast).

Another reason as others have said is that it does not require a second job of monks to play a little offense. With ED, you must get into range of someone who has energy...that means those 2 warriors beating on you are not options, so for most monks most of the time you must move up into range, which takes time, distracts the monk from monking duties, and puts the monk more in harms way of aggro. 8 energy denial every 25 secs is NOT a form of energy denial.....it is a nuisance IF the person in range is low on energy in the first place. Personally I think a monk should feel he/she is free to retreat backward and force the mesmer to aggro forward so that your team can take advantage of overextenders....your monks should not be the ones coming to them....a good kiting monk can evade some of a mesmers drains while forcing a mesmer to overcommit. There are just so many inconvenient things you are forcing a monk to do by running forward for a ED.

I understand that it is a big problem for MoR if they die and get rezzed, how do they get energy back right away? I personally switch to the +15en -1regen offhand item as soon as I am rezzed....slap on MoR, and do my thing. Once MoR is about to end and is flashing, I switch back to normal, drop max en, and get my 23 en while I was able to keep up heals with -1 regen cuz i still had 20 en even after casting MoR....plus, if they kill your enchantment early, then you get it back sooner than expected and youre on your way.

Its a great idea to put things in perspective of the advantages and disadvantages of each in numbers, but realistically you cant use those numbers to get an end-all result to support one way or another.

I know most of the top guilds are using ED, but I think its because most have not tried out MoR enough......Also, I do believe ED has a bit better benefit in pressure builds while MoR can be a little bit better sometimes in attruition builds. I use MoR in gvg since the update and out of many matches against top guilds and edenial I have only run out of energy consistently against a 2 warrior fear me + mesmer edenial build, now THAT is rough. It really comes down to what your overall team build can do to help you out in situations, and coming up with THE BEST NO MATTER WHAT SITUATION is absurd and ignorant of the possibilities out there.