Curse

Prince Anubis · Oct 21, 2006, 08:43 AM // 08:43

Anyone ever tryed FoW?

http://img201.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gw034eb1.png

Suxipo · Oct 21, 2006, 09:06 AM // 09:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

This statement is false when applied to this build. In order to understand why it is necessary to look at some skill descriptions and do some basic maths.

.......

Finally itis neccesary to consider Spirit Bond (SB) 16 prot implies 104 health from spirit bond for attack over 60 damage, thus when running 15 smite efficiently you will still be healed for:

104-75=29 health on each hit. With Life attunement at 16 prot (which gives a 52% boost to healing), this gives us:

29+(29*0.52)=29+15.08=44.08 which is approximately 44 health per hit.

Thus the aforementioned statement made by Niet Nart was false.

Q.E.D

actually your analysis is wrong as Spirit Bond is always triggered before Protective Spirit. Therefore, at Divine Favor of 12, does not matter how much health you have (55 or 800), you will always be healed for 80 health (without Lite Attunement) when hit with 60+ damage.

Thanas · Oct 21, 2006, 11:26 AM // 11:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suxipo

actually your analysis is wrong as Spirit Bond is always triggered before Protective Spirit. Therefore, at Divine Favor of 12, does not matter how much health you have (55 or 800), you will always be healed for 80 health (without Lite Attunement) when hit with 60+ damage.

Yes spirit bond is activated regardless of health as long as you take 60 damage. I do know how SB works and that it activates before PS. I don't really understand what you are trying to say. The person who I originally quoted made the point that your health doesn't matter, but for this build it does, since in order to get the most damage out of HW you need high health. My analysis gives values of health required for given values of smite, so that HW offers the most damage against damage taken.

Exile Of Heaven · Oct 21, 2006, 11:33 AM // 11:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Prince Anubis

Anyone ever tryed FoW?

http://img201.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gw034eb1.png

We have tryed it, and u can almost do 3 man full and clear FoW

With a ss, wich is a bit tweaked u can 3 man Forgemaster.

FoW is easy with this build..

Even a N/Mo can solo great parts of FoW...

Thanas · Oct 21, 2006, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ietwat

I think ure math is correct but when duo-ing the Underworld you cannot forget that de Cows use Sever Artery and Gash wich causes deep wound on you, i normally run this with my bro and i have about ~800 hp, i can make it bigger by using a Soulstone as offhand and a weapon that gives +30 hp.

This should make you hp about 820 with a major vigor on my Dragon Mask

I think its the highest health possible to reach without Symbiosis or other non-monk skills.

Non monk skills does not only make it harder, but you have to spread points in other attributes as well. I think this is the best option you can try when using this build.

Yeah I didn't take deep wound into account. I felt that this would have made the calculation a little too complicated. The whole point of my analysis was to show that certain values of health are desirable when using HW alongside the spiritbonder build. Taking deep wound into account which drops your health by 20% and using 15 smite I'm guessing for build efficiency you would require:

750x1.2=900 health

Suxipo · Oct 21, 2006, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

Yes spirit bond is activated regardless of health as long as you take 60 damage. I do know how SB works and that it activates before PS. I don't really understand what you are trying to say. The person who I originally quoted made the point that your health doesn't matter, but for this build it does, since in order to get the most damage out of HW you need high health. My analysis gives values of health required for given values of smite, so that HW offers the most damage against damage taken.

Thamas,

Sorry if I misread your post. However, the quote that you included from Niet Nart only mentions about the healing part that it is more efficient to get healed when low on health or 55HP. Also your maths argue that you only get healed 29HP with Spirit Bond on and Protection Prayers of 16 (or healed for 44.08HP with Lite Attunement). Did I miss something?

Damage wise, you will need high health. With HW, more health means more damage. That's why if you are 55, you have to reply on SS, not HW.

BTW, thanks for the great build. My brother and I have been enjoying this build since it is much easier and relaxing than 55 (even when replacing HB with Spirit Bond). We have tried this build in FoW to no success because we can't kill the monks. We will try the few mods from other members posted here (bring SV and sourge healing).

Thanas · Oct 21, 2006, 10:08 PM // 22:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suxipo

Thamas,

Sorry if I misread your post. However, the quote that you included from Niet Nart only mentions about the healing part that it is more efficient to get healed when low on health or 55HP. Also your maths argue that you only get healed 29HP with Spirit Bond on and Protection Prayers of 16 (or healed for 44.08HP with Lite Attunement). Did I miss something?

First things first Niet Nart made his post here in this thread where we have been discussing the use of the skill HW with the spiritbonder build. Therefore his comments are out of place.

Secondly, yes spiritbond does heal you a given amount, however you still take damage and the amount of damage you take is 33% of damage dealt to you. Thus the net health gain is how much spiritbond heals you for minus 33% of original incoming damage, which in our case is controlled by PS.

Thanas · Oct 22, 2006, 02:44 AM // 02:44

I have just started to run dual SB and am now running into problems. Firstly I have noticed even without chaining enchants the black cows can still interupt PS and SB. Secondly I have found that the graspings will kill me outright unless I drop my health to around 600 even with ele resist on and no armour. Why this is I have no idea. Can anyone enlighten me?

Akane · Oct 22, 2006, 06:02 AM // 06:02

Thanas, somehow the Graspings are not hitting inside the "Golden Window" between the low end of Sbond requirement (60) and the high end of Sbond's heal (with DF added in).

Damage management is the key to this build. The ideal would be having a target continually damaging you close to the top end of Sbonds healing capacity. That way you would constantly self-heal and the foes would keep getting MAX damage of WS and Retribution. Next best would be having the target hit close to SBond's threshold of 60.

Get damage over Sbond's capacity and you can't self-sustain. That's why for heavy hitters like the Aatxes in UW, PS is used. The key is to crank health up enough to get the reduced damage back up into Sbond's window. This will make you self-sustaining while maximizing the smite damage you deliver back.

Getting damage just under 60 really sucks. Either find a way to knock it down MUCH lower, or to boost it up into SBond's window.

Your options are:
1. With Health of 600, you're right at max. 60 potential damage with PS cast. Perhaps go a little higher to get the potential damage further into the window. (that will also increase dmg from WS and Retribution)

2. Juice up your healing capacity with Life Attunement and Divine Favor to raise your top end of Sbond healing.

2. Use Frenzy or Elemental Resistance to increase damage from physical sources to get well over the threshold.

3. Combine targets so that the ones that keep healing you compansate for the ones that don't. An example would be killing off the Coldfires while letting the smites continually attack.

4. Switch to 55 setup and use SS to kill the targets. Unfortunately, any smite damage drops as the tank's HP drops.

5. Boost tank's self-healing capacity to counter damage.

5. Boost self-protection to reduce damage to the point it doesn't pose much threat. Go with full armor and a spell like Physical Resistance. Note: Protective Spirit is not needed if damage doesn't exceed Sbonds top-end capacity.

I haven't tried this last idea. The key would be keeping the Aatxes damage in the window of Sbond and the Graspings damage so low it wouldn't exceed your healing capacity. The healing of the Aatxes would compansate for the small damage from the Graspings. The drawback is the smite damage on the Graspings would be severly compromised (which sucks becuse tank in Grasping aggro trying to cast SS would be impossible). A benefit of Physical Resistance is it could later help increase any ele damage ( from Dryders and Coldfires) up into the Sbond threshold.

Another variation of the last point would be to have the smiter use Life Bond on the tank. Not sure how the spells would play out but both allies could use Sbond. Retribution and/or HW could be doubled up for even more damage. Note: LBond can kill the smiter real fast in UW if not appropriately protected with SBond and/or PS. Again, the problem with reducing damage on tank is the reduction in smiting damage.

Thanas · Oct 22, 2006, 01:08 PM // 13:08

Most of what you have said I have taken into consideration. However my quandry lies in the fact that when you lower your health below 600 you do not die to graspings. This makes no sense espeically since I tried using SB only, so that dmg is not health related and then tried using a prot sprit/SB combo too. In both scenarios SB is activated. However if you go above 600 and run at around 770 health to get the most from HW, you die instantly. Why should SB activate for lower health? In my mind it shoudn't especially where PS is not involved.

Akane · Oct 22, 2006, 05:23 PM // 17:23

That is weird.

SB should work based on damage only - completely independant of your total HP. Maybe you got dazed by a Skull Crack from the Graspings then got interrupted - I've heard of that happening.

Did you take on the Grasping and Aatxes together? If you take on the Aatxes without PS (or some other means of damage reduction), you'll get smacked down real quick.

*Edit - it's probably Flurry - whenever the Grasping use that, their damage probably drops below Sbond's threshold and they hit you faster.

For the chamber run, it would help if the smiter puts SV on the tank along with Spell Breaker. That way the Grasping don't get Flurry off. The tank could then even cast SS since he wouldn't get interrupted (as long as he waits in aggro for 4-5 seconds so SV can drain all energy).

Akane · Oct 22, 2006, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Slimreb, good recommendation on dropping the Protection enchants off the smiter. Here's a new variation using that idea...

Tank – Mo/N (or N/Mo)
Prot, Heal, Curses
1. Protective Spirit
2. Spirit Bond
3. Healing Breeze
4. Spiteful Spirit
5. Reckless Haste
6. Vital Blessing
7. Life Attunement
8. Mending (Desecrate Enchantments)

Smite-Bonder – Mo/Me
Smite, DF, Illusion
1. Balthazaar’s Spirit
2. Succor
3. Retribution
4. Holy Wrath
5. Blessed Signet
6. Spell Breaker
7. Sympathetic Visage
8. Rebirth

I kept Reckless Haste because it helps SS kill much faster in the 55-build sections like Wrathful Spirits. SS and RH are needed with 55HP because the damage from smiting will be pitiful whenever the tank drops HP down. RH would not be good for areas that depended on smite damage because, like Velath said, it would increase misses (though SS still benefits from RH misses). RH would also help keep the villagers alive for Wrathful Spirits (only need 1 to survive). Desecrate Enchantments is another reasonable option for increased damage, but IMHO, RH is a much better choice since you can't get the echoed-SS effect of a conventional SS N/Me.

As Velath also stated, Mending and Healing Breeze are only needed for 55-build sections.

The point of this modified build isn't just to do the fastest smite runs (which it still will). It's about flexibility. By being able to switch between a 55 and +600 build on the tank, extensive 2 man runs deep into UW become viable. And you might as well gather some big exp points for your 1k cover charge while you're there. Making quick spider runs also becomes an easy option.

Akane · Oct 22, 2006, 09:40 PM // 21:40

Going through the possible Nightfall skills for this build, there's only one skill that draws attention... Poisoned Heart for the Tank instead of Reckless Haste. It could be pre-cast prior to grabbing aggro (along with Healing Breeze or Mending) so that it bursts at the right time. It's fast-casting and could be used against any enemy group.

Note: likely better to cast this without using +20 enchants weapon so that -3 degen doesn't last longer than 10 seconds.

Akane · Oct 22, 2006, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Hmmm...

Signet of Agony and Contagion could be effective combo on tank instead of SS and RH.

Thanas · Oct 22, 2006, 11:23 PM // 23:23

I've come to the conclusion that flurry is the culprit. I'm gonna have to run a series of tests to confirm this however. One thing I have found helpful against graspings is SV. So I now run this as the tank and have dropped essence bond since my energy flow is pretty good without it. I also go shirtless. For everything that isnt grasping I use the normal 700+ hp build.

Akane · Oct 22, 2006, 11:53 PM // 23:53

Thanas, consider having the smiter carry SV (like typical N/Me SS/SV setup) as I've listed above.

The key choice would be having the smiter pre-cast along with Spell Breaker, or wait until you've settled into full aggro position. The choice depends on whether the tank can survive the 4-5 seconds of heat from the Grasping until the smiter can enchant him with SV. With Spell Breaker on that should be feasible. With Holy Wrath on, the smiter will have no energy and must do a quick weapon flip to access reserve pool so SV can be cast.

On the other hand, you could switch the build I listed above to create a Mo/Me tank and a Mo/N bonder. However, I think Spell Breaker, as an elite, is better on the smite-bonder because after pre-casting it, energy will be burned up by Holy Wrath. Spamming SS (when needed) is better on the tank, who typically has a continual supply of energy. That means the tank goes Necro secondary and the smiter brings SV as a Mes secondary.

slimreb · Oct 23, 2006, 02:19 PM // 14:19

As Thanas has found out it is Flurry that is making the Grasping drop below the Golden Windows of Spirit Bond. Though over all I have not found this to be a problem. In the first area of the UW just take the quest and aggro the Aatxes along with the Grasping. This will keep your health high thoughout the battle.

Running as the tank I will try to grab some heavy hitter whenever I aggro a large group of Grasping just to make my life easier. Though I must say that I rarely have problems staying alive against Graspings even if I can not get heavy hitters with them, like in the area with the Wrathful Ghosts. Though as the tank since the guild team is always at least 3 people I can go all monk for my skill bar. With that I have a 13 Prot and 14 Divine.

My health with this build is 777 though can go 807 if I want. Anyways this is my setup as the tank:

Prot 13 (12+1)
Divine 14 (12+1+1)

Spell Breaker
Protective Spirit
Spirit Bond
Blessed Signet
Life Attunement
Vital Blessing
Essence Bond
Blessed Aura

When casting the maintained enchantments I put on a headpiece with a superior rune for the required stat. That way each is cast at a lvl16. I then put my 15AL divine favor cap back on. I run with only a head tat, pants, and shoes. I have the minor prot in the pants, the minor divine in the tat, and a major vigor in the shoes.

Weapons:
Totem Axe
Straw Effigy (divine version)

Scar Eater (used to get that extra 30 life when hit with Deep Wound or when a little extra life is needed)

Though I must point out that last night was the first time I ever used the Straw Effigy down there as a tank and we ran across a wierd problem, if you want to call it that.

When having the Totem/Effigy combo in weapon slot 1 and the Scar Eater in weapon slot 2 the Obidion Behemoths would not attack anyone in the group when the Totem/Effigy combo was the active weapon set. When I changed over to the Scar Eater they would instantly start attacking. This was just too wierd. We tested this scenario out on every group of Obsidian Behemoths we came across with the same results. So this would allow you to get through the mountains a lot fast to get to the chaos plains.

I will try and test this out again tonight if we get favor before bed.

Oh and just to show the smiters build in our 3 guild setup it is like this I believe: (each person usually runs a slightly different build)

Smiting 16
Divine Favor 12/13

Shield of Judgement
Blessed Signet
Signet of Devotion
Purge Signet
Balthazar Spirit
Retribution
Holy Wrath
Rebirth

Velath · Oct 23, 2006, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thanas

I've come to the conclusion that flurry is the culprit. I'm gonna have to run a series of tests to confirm this however. One thing I have found helpful against graspings is SV. So I now run this as the tank and have dropped essence bond since my energy flow is pretty good without it. I also go shirtless. For everything that isnt grasping I use the normal 700+ hp build.

Shirtless, gloveless and head-tatless is important. I actually wear my dragon mask down there with a vigor rune (think it's only minor) when I'm actually doing the tanking, I run about 700hp with vital blessing. What I find is I often am getting healed by divine favor casting sb and ps, not so much the inherint heal from sb against the graspings. It happens but unfortunately not consistently with them using flurry. When we three man I just have the SS cast SV on me for the graspings. To avoid the deadly interrupts just overlap the skills, I usually do ps, breaker, sb, 5 secs, sb, ps, 5 secs sb...and so on. Also try and take aatxes and graspings together. For example take "clear the chamber" quest and just ps and sb and aggro away. Of course watch out for nightmares. I've never died doing that, but make sure you overlap skills cause there are a lot of interrupts flying your way!

Akane, I actually dropped mending from the Mo/N tank build and just stuck blessed sig in. And there's no point in the smiter running essence bond as the person maintaining essence bond gains the energy not the tank! I think I've dropped RH to carry essence, but not sure if that's the way I want to go yet. It's fun to play as it makes it a lot more challenging against the graspings as you don't get that health bonus from DF and rely on sb for healing. I'm not sure if the Fiery Flame Spitter really helps with -10 armor while attacking but I use it anyway! Also the terrorwebs can be challenging, but they go down as well, eventually! Energy seems to be the issue there most of the time.

Has anyone tried the skill Channeling instead of blessed sig and maybe balths or essence. I was gonna have a go with that and drop a point of DF or PP and see how it worked but haven't yet had the chance. Will probably try tonight with the conventional build.

Akane · Oct 23, 2006, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Velath, good point on Essence Bond - silly me!
I switched it to Succor.

If the Tank doesn't need Mending, an offensive Curses spell like Desecrate Enchantments would be perfect.

Or the tank could carry Essence Bond and the smiter carry Anscestor's Visage instead of Succor to maintain energy drain on Mindblades for Chaos Plains.

AuraofMana · Oct 23, 2006, 09:56 PM // 21:56

I don't get why you guys want to go beyond the first Reaper quest in UW. I thought it's faster to just redo?
Unless, of course, you just want to do the whole UW and have fun, which is the whole point of gaming anyway.