Curse

darrengordon · Nov 16, 2006, 05:13 PM // 17:13

does no one actually see what im trying to say OMG.

STOP NOW i am not saying that monks should not do the most damage or that certain damage is armor ignoring and so on and so on and so on i really really dont care, FFS read what i am typing. PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD READ IT.

I just find it strange that the monk build is one of the best ways to do group damage whether its SOJ, SS, IW they all do a constant 40 ish damage to a big group which is more than any other char can do to a big group.

Do you honestly belive that the monk should be the one that deals the most damage? really?

Im not saying i want it change just that its strange please for the love of anything stop saying that im against monks or rangers etc etc, look around i have posted a monk build i have posted a ranger trapper UW build above i have every char and play em all regualy i love the different styles.

Yanman.be · Nov 16, 2006, 05:13 PM // 17:13

Game mechanic: Giving damage by your input is less rewarded than giving damage through the enemy's input.

If the enemy attacks when SoJ is on( and don't forget, it's an elite ), he will be punished for his behaviour.

If you simply attack the enemy, he can't help it.

That is a huge difference in how damage should be provided.

And no, I didn't mean to call you a noob.

darrengordon · Nov 16, 2006, 05:17 PM // 17:17

really sorry Yanman take back everything i missinterpreted your statement.

LOL after this whole thread Yanman i think you really have hit the nail on the head, i can understand that philosophy totally it is the monsters chioce to attack and therfore the damage they are dealt back should be proportional these spells will do no damage unless it attacks therfore it has a choice. The Monk or the Necro spells used arnt direct damage but almost say a retaliation damage for being attacked hence they have a high damage output.

Yup that makes sense to me and actually answers the question i had really well. In essence for all those who still didnt get the question it answers it because these spells arnt damage they still fall under a monk banner of protection / retribution.

Cheers

Yanman.be · Nov 16, 2006, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Exactly. If the monsters don't do anything, they don't take damage and SoJ or SS would still do less damage. SS is at it's best when it stops someone from playing. SoJ protects someone against many attacks. etc.

lundis · Nov 16, 2006, 06:33 PM // 18:33

If you're that addicted to damage just make an ele and use some meteor showers -_-

Yanman.be · Nov 16, 2006, 06:50 PM // 18:50

He's not addicted to damage, he just wants to know the reason.

random.name · Nov 16, 2006, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Lol, what reason? Monk does not do the most damage... SS used right beats SoJ, certain Earth Elementalist setups beats SoJ, certain warrior setups beats SoJ, MM necro beats SoJ, MM Rit beats SoJ, Skilled trapper rangers beats SoJ... Get the picture?

Just because you have not used a build that beats SoJ, does not mean there isnt one...

Bloodied Blade · Nov 17, 2006, 03:40 AM // 03:40

Well, your original post rather confused me...but from what I'm seeing, your basic thing is just that monks seem to do more solo dps than other classes.

You play a ranger according to your profession in your sig thingy (as do I)... Have you ever tried trapping before? It does a helluva lot more dps than SoJ (if you ignore setting up the traps). SV/AV/Famine on a fair-sized group is also YEARS faster.

SoJ is not the be-all end-all that you seem to believe that it is. As random.name has pointed out, almost anything in the game is better than using SoJ. SoJ only became famous because of the 55hp build and its ability to solo farm UW quick and efficiently.

It just seems that you think SoJ is better in your opinion because you're used to your dps coming from Cyclone Axe + Apply Poison. That's something like 8dps + Cyclone Axe's damage...which will lose out every single time to the 25ish dps of SoJ and its utility to KD things. If you use your traps, you can apply bleed, poison, blind, burning, cripple, daze, AND knock the mob down (yes, this is all doable in 1 build, just that your KD trap is weird in how you need to use it).

Here's an idea of what trappers can do compared to SoJ:

That's 20dps, + the traps' dps...my dust trap hits ~ 25s on an aataxe, so that's 45dps already while the dust is pulsing. I generally can drop 4+ of them, so that's 120dps before we look at the damage of the other traps. Over the 3 - 5 seconds of dust trap doing its dps (I think it's 3), that's 360 - 600 damage just off of degen + dust traps. Factor in the ~5dps from flame trap and that's another 60 - 100 dps *per flame trap*, which comes out to be a whopping 220 dps. That's a lvl 20 in any armor you choose dead in 3-4 seconds.

With each new trapper you gain an additional 220+ dps or so (I don't count barbed/spike trap in my dps calculations because they don't hit over time and it's late for me to be thinking). With just 2 rangers you now have 440 dps + the barbed/spike traps, which all together will kill almost anything under the sun.

I'll make a trapper run on trolls or something to try and get you some more precise figures (flame + dust + instant triggers).

Hope that helped a little... (oh, and the dps is actually a lot higher since it increases proportionally to the mobs hit, but dps is relative for this argument since SoJ is also an AoE).

One last little thing- most of this can be done under 70 seconds (I think the actual number is something like 41 seconds).

LightningHell · Nov 17, 2006, 05:11 AM // 05:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by lundis

If you're that addicted to damage just make an ele and use some meteor showers -_-

Another mindless Ele. Meteor Shower does NOT outdamage anything.

Antheus · Nov 17, 2006, 05:30 AM // 05:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by darrengordon

does no one actually see what im trying to say OMG.

STOP NOW i am not saying that monks should not do the most damage or that certain damage is armor ignoring and so on and so on and so on i really really dont care, FFS read what i am typing. PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD READ IT.

I just find it strange that the monk build is one of the best ways to do group damage whether its SOJ, SS, IW they all do a constant 40 ish damage to a big group which is more than any other char can do to a big group.

If you go by sheer numbers, then SoJ deals high damage.

But this damage is highly conditional. VwK has even higher DPS, despite lower absolute damage, it doesn't knock down targets and deals damage more frequently.

But the key factor here is that SoJ damage is highly conditional. It only works against mobs. Another thing to consider is the overall output. SoJ can be kept up for a long time, perhaps even with echo. But apart from that, it's still conditional. As pointed out before, in just about any situation the damage it really does is insignificant and too unreliable.

Fire nukers don't require foes to attack a specific target. SS will trigger for its entire duration. IW will be driven by player.

SoJ and VwK both have very high damage output. They can due to being conditional. They require foes to attack a specific target. And that's something you cannot force or control. It's only exploitable against certain AI.

But in most cases, the fact that it does highest absolute damage is irrelevant compared to its overall damage output of a team.

darrengordon · Nov 17, 2006, 08:17 AM // 08:17

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, thanks everyone for your input but i dont think anyone except Yanman understands what im trying to say.

Bloodied babe, yup i tried trapping in fact my Guild is called Trap and without blowing our horn probably the best set of trappers in the game. If you want to increase the damage from dust use the echo. If you read the build i posted somewhere around here we duo UW with a hybrid dual echo and spike trap (yes one char uses 2 elites) build that lets us drop over 1100 damage in 30 secs without using sprits so you dont have to wait for the recharge. If you are a good trapper then come join us were always looking for re-cruits.

Before anyone else raves on about SOJ please read the whole thread i am making a PHILOSIPHICAL (lol dont think spelling is correct there) question i mention not justs monks in the early part but also Necro etc and not just SOJ in fact i list a tonne of em (SOJ, SS, VwK, Taitnted Flesh, Bonn / Glad etc etc) all which i use.

The question which has now been excentally answered by Yanman was a simple one but i think it turned out harder then the question to life the universe and everything.

It was why can a monk or necro do more damage through a skill than most other melle characters when fighting a group as to me thats a bit strange. The answer was they dont these skills are more retaliation based ie if the creature didnt attack then they woudlnt get hurt so that answers my question as in my mind it fits with a monk or necors character that they should not be able to do high damage attacks and with these skills they are not the damage is thru lets call it retribution not direct attack damage.

I have all chars at lvl 20 and use them reguly or though my fav is my origional Ranger just because he was my first one.

I think that this thrad is now resolved so please feel free to JUST LET IT DIE

Anarion Silverhand · Nov 17, 2006, 12:27 PM // 12:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by darrengordon

Hi there Anarion when someone says to me "learn the game mechnics more then your know why", then yup sorry that is like someone calling me a noob hence yup flaming

Not really, he was encouraging you to learn more about how the game works. A teacher doesn't flame you at school, he/she encourages you to learn.

buy and die · Nov 17, 2006, 12:40 PM // 12:40

Hey Anarion. Can i touch you? RAWR!

Anyway i wish teachers would be encouraging me or anyone else but its usually them that need some encouragement to properly continue teaching in the broken public school system. Besides that i would have understood that as a flame as well.

Sertu · Nov 17, 2006, 01:06 PM // 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by darrengordon

...I have been playing with making my ranger imortal and finally got a substainable build and yup i cant do any good group damage. So i gave him an axe with cyclone chop and poison (axe at 12) and still he cant do as much damage as SOJ at around 45 per hit to the whole group.
Is it just me or is this somehow wrong?

So u are trying to make a ranger with great defence and give him cyclone axe + apply poison and expect to do a lot of dmg.
Its definitly u

First of all: rangers + axes = a DONT! let the warriors wield the axes. If u want a melee ranger go for a bunny thumper.
Second: rangers are versatile. They can be if u want dmg dealers but then can do so much more. Thats wat makes them great. They have great spiking potential, they make the best interupters, the have spirits, BM = overpowered its just 2 bad that petcontrol sucks, they can be trappers, they can do massive dmg 2 groups of people eg. Conjure flame + Barrage + FW + Winow + Fiery Bowstring... and last: expertise is the best attribute in GW

sage tank · Nov 17, 2006, 03:07 PM // 15:07

If you are play axe fighter try rely more on adreline skills, there is not many good axe skills that uses energy. Beside with the cheap cost of dismember that is an easy 120+ armor ignoring damage if you can inflict deep wound on many enemies.

In my opinion

Sword specialize in higher armour ignoring damaging attack from attack skill and stable DPS

Axe is for inflicting Deep Wound and high DPS with critical hits

Hammer is just for KD with high damage per hit (You can easily hit a 90+ on squishy with no attack skill with 16 hammer mastery and sundering)