Curse

Mr Pvper · Dec 01, 2006, 02:21 AM // 02:21

I had this build for awhile, and i used it for Random Arenas purposes and it was better than any Thumper build out there so far, yet doesn't use a pet:P(pets are bad at changing targets anyhow)

R/W
12Hammer
10+1+3 Expertise
8Tactics

Skills-
Devastating Hammer {E}
On Your Knees
Crushing Blow
Irresistable Blow
Crude Swing
Lightning Reflexes
Heal Signet
Rez Signet

Suggest armor insignia -Stance+10armor

Hammer
15% Stance
20/20 sundering
+30 hp

Devastating Hammer combined with On Your Knees refreshes Lighting Reflexes constantly, giving u 33% atk speed and 75% evasion almost all the time.

Crushing Blow is a follow up of Devastating Hammer, to inflict a deep wound and to add extra dmg.

Irresistable Blow is used for dealing extra dmg to pressure ur target and is used contiously.

Crude Swing adds extra dmg and is not easily interuptable...... because ur under lightning reflexes, allowing the atk to swing faster as well as attacks against u being evaded 75% of the time.

Heal Signet is just used if u cant do anything atm, like being hexed with ineptitude or blinded for a duration of time.

Rez-self-explanatory...

-Tips-
Use a wand to build adreline if you need adreline or if u want to prepare for a combo attack.

Use Crude Swing against several targets adjacent to u or to attack a runner when the runner stops to use a skill, followed by irresistable blow.

Use crushing blow mainly on knockdowned foes for deep wound.

Use Devastating Hammer as ur interupt skill, and be sure to keep lightning reflexes on all the time by using devastating+on your knees.

Always use crude swing if u can before irresistable.

Never use heal signet unless u are out of battle range or u have lightning reflexes on.

LightningHell · Dec 01, 2006, 04:57 AM // 04:57

No (reliable) IAS, Crude Swing is easily interruptable, no speed buff.

Thanks, but I rather play with a normal Thumper.

Cathode_Reborn · Dec 01, 2006, 06:21 AM // 06:21

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/R/W_Lightning_Hammer

A similar build has been there for a while. This definitely does not do more damage than a RaO thumper. This build requires alot more skills to work. I tried it before, and it's kinda risky.....if you don't manage to get your adren up for Devastating hammer and use "On your knees!" to recharge Lightning reflexes, then you're open to attacks and attacking at the speed of a lazy man

RaO is an IAS and Speed boost in one. There's no way to chase kiters using this build since if you use a stance, you'll cancel Reflexes, and it's got a nice long recharge time. It's obviously better for 1v1'ing a war or sin, who arn't likely to run from you. Casters really have nothin to fear against this build. If I saw someone using this build, I'd wait for em to use lightning reflexes, then simply kite em untill it ends

On another note, why 20/20?

Go to the Isle of the namless outside Balth's temple, use Wild blow to test that 20/20 on the wooden targets......you might be surprised it's pretty damn weak and not worth it. You're better off usin vamp if you want damage, but I still prefer furious, especially in a build like this.

XvArchonvX · Dec 01, 2006, 06:28 AM // 06:28

While this build gives some defense it loses the most essentail parts of what makes a thumper effective. As Lightning pointed out, no (reliable) IAS and no speedboost ftl.

LagunaCid · Dec 01, 2006, 08:55 AM // 08:55

And no pet. Yes, pets do deal nice damage.

Silk Weaver · Dec 01, 2006, 10:34 AM // 10:34

I've used it before it's great fun.

But yeah, lack of reliable IAS is an issue. Actually, I don't know if it's much of an issue. Look at it like this, when teamed with other warriors/thumpers as thumpers usually are anyway, On Your Knees! will get lots of easy triggers. You can keep it up almost indefinetly.

Still restrictions are still there, so whatever.

LightningHell · Dec 01, 2006, 12:28 PM // 12:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Silk Weaver

I've used it before it's great fun.

But yeah, lack of reliable IAS is an issue. Actually, I don't know if it's much of an issue. Look at it like this, when teamed with other warriors/thumpers as thumpers usually are anyway, On Your Knees! will get lots of easy triggers. You can keep it up almost indefinetly.

Still restrictions are still there, so whatever.

You don't run (well, did anyway) Paragons because they're great fun. You run them because if you don't you drastically decrease your win chance.

Silk Weaver · Dec 01, 2006, 12:46 PM // 12:46

Strange, I play GW because it's fun, and I play cripshots because it's fun too. ^^

LightningHell · Dec 01, 2006, 01:24 PM // 13:24

You generally don't try to gimp yourself severely while at it.

Thom Bangalter · Dec 01, 2006, 01:49 PM // 13:49

a defensive thumper means that it just sucks compared to a regular thumper apparently. Thumpers are about beating the crap out of things. They don't care about healing themselves, that's the monk's job.

I suppose it works in RA because you have no way to reliably get a monk, but just play the game like you would regardless, instead of trying to get that precious glad point by running a gimped bar.

Dutch Masterr · Dec 01, 2006, 01:54 PM // 13:54

the thumper is a great damage dealer...the only problem is that they have absolutley no healing at all!....this one at least has some (minimal) healing and a good speed buff+blocking...the RaO build uses only hammer mastery, expertise and beast mastery. unless your relying 100% on a monk to heal you, you die too easy. what happens if you get hit with conditions and degen? i havent tried it yet, but im going to make a heal as one build and see how that works.....the thumper build i currently use is---irrisistable blow, crushing blow, hammer bash, escape, whirling defense, lighting reflexes, troll unguent. and occasionally swap one out for apply poison.

LightningHell · Dec 01, 2006, 02:03 PM // 14:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dutch Masterr

the thumper is a great damage dealer...the only problem is that they have absolutley no healing at all!....this one at least has some (minimal) healing and a good speed buff+blocking...the RaO build uses only hammer mastery, expertise and beast mastery. unless your relying 100% on a monk to heal you, you die too easy. what happens if you get hit with conditions and degen? i havent tried it yet, but im going to make a heal as one build and see how that works.....the thumper build i currently use is---irrisistable blow, crushing blow, hammer bash, escape, whirling defense, lighting reflexes, troll unguent. and occasionally swap one out for apply poison.

Who in serious gameplay doesn't rely on a monk to heal them?

Silk Weaver · Dec 01, 2006, 03:37 PM // 15:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Bangalter

a defensive thumper means that it just sucks compared to a regular thumper apparently. Thumpers are about beating the crap out of things. They don't care about healing themselves, that's the monk's job.

It doesn't actually work in RA. It has no dependable healing. What. Troll Unguent? You kidding me?

What it does have though, is a supposedly constant IAS with Devstating Hammer, which is a decent elite. With Irresistable Blow, and assuming your monks aren't total idiots, On Your Knees = almost indefinet IAS. So.... it's not really that bad is it? RaO owns it, yeah, but this isn't bad. It's not actually "overly defensive and no output". Honestly, even if, due perhaps to blind and busy monks, you miss devastating hammer, you could just build up again and you'll be able to use on your knees, not to mention On Your Knees! could actually trigger off your other thumper. Guardians/Aegis in case people still use it can be fixed with irresistable blow, of course.

Only real issue would be ward of stability and ward against melee, which owns "normal" thumpers already anyway, so what's the fuss?\

It's inferior in terms of output, but not really by as much as you say. It (lightning reflex + On Your Knees) has advantages over Tiger's Fury (old school thumper) simply due to 33% IAS.

Unless you're suggesting that your whole team managed to not kd something every 12 or so seconds (gale, shock, thumper, hammer warrior) to refesh reflexes, this is a R/W Hammer Ranger with IAS and 12 hammer mastery capable if spamming Irre Blow and Bull's Strike, etc just like any other thumper.

Obviously I'd actually use it if it was better than what's been done, but I don't think you should critisize the concept as horrible, as surely it is not. In fact, it's close enough, it's just that the restrictions make the already less versatile thumper even less so, so I prefer RaOs more. Otherwise...

XvArchonvX · Dec 01, 2006, 03:52 PM // 15:52

I think the greatest problem with the concept is that they whole reason Thumpers are around in the first place is because they are all out total damage dealers. If you want to hit something with a hammer and still have defense, then you might as well just use a warrior.

Silk Weaver · Dec 02, 2006, 12:04 AM // 00:04

Yes, well what I'm essentially saying is that the combination of Lightning Reflexes and On Your Knees! means constant 33% IAS as long as an enemy is knocked down once every 11 seconds which, in a team game, isn't very rare. Even if there are sudden lapses for some reason (aforementioned wards), the downtime of IAS probably won't be much less than frenzy's in the longe run.

As for output... what? It has the same attacks as a normal thumper.

Irresistable Blow, Crushing Blow, Hammer Bash/Devastating Hammer, Protector's Strike, Bull's Strike, Distracting Blow, etc... it, in fact, has more slots of attack skills since this build doesn't use pet. And although pets do deal damage, you must admit that that's only part of the reason. The other half of the reason is that they provide IAS (TF/RaO). With this reason gone, it makes more sense to have more Hammer Attacks which, due to expertise, is what makes the R/W Thumper usable compared to a warrior to start with.

To sum up what I'm saying, using, the combination of Reflexes and On Your Knees gives you, quite reliably (seriously, not a single knock down in 11-15 seconds??):

Constant 33% IAS
7 Slots for Attack Skills spamming
Elite Attack
14 expertise, 12 Hammer

How does this "suck" compared to the other thumpers? Let's have a chart of those...

Near Constant 25% IAS
Pet
4 Attack Slots
Elite Attack
9 Expertise
12 Hammer
11 Beast Mastery

RaO
Constant 33 IAS
Constant 25% Speed Boost
4 Attack Slots
''

As you can see, RaO probably owns both of them, but this concept, when compared to the old thumper, isn't really all that bad. It has a more consistant and more effective IAS, more slots, more expertise to spam these attacks (energy does become an issue sometime), and no pet to bother about. Maybe it's me, but I think that 8% IAS is more than enough to make up for the loss of a pet who will almost definetly get itself killed... well depends I guess. But as you can see, it's not really "all defense" at all.

And that comparison looks only at output. While thumpers aren't prime targets, what this does mean is that this person can overextend, knockdown, deal a deepwound, then return relatively unscathed. How's that a bad thing?

XvArchonvX · Dec 02, 2006, 04:08 AM // 04:08

I think you are still missing the point of why thumpers don't bring self heals. If you substitute something in for a heal, you take away from the damage potential. When you take out the pet, you deal a big blow to the damage potential of the build.

LightningHell · Dec 02, 2006, 05:54 AM // 05:54

Something that "isn't really all that bad" against something that is "good" is "bad".

Dr Strangelove · Dec 02, 2006, 06:13 AM // 06:13

I guess it's worthwhile in RA, I'm not really sure how much that says though.

Silk Weaver · Dec 02, 2006, 07:09 AM // 07:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Something that "isn't really all that bad" against something that is "good" is "bad".

Actually, it would seem that it's better than the old thumpers, that is to say, after TF nerf, before Nightfall.

I think the gap is close enough that it's usable. Does skill and tactic matter more, or build? I think it has been agreed that build matters a great deal in the higher ranks and with gimmick builds/spikes, which would have to deal with luck, but in terms of output, I don't see this as nessesarily lesser. Afterall, pre-NF thumpers did not have speed boosts or self heal but was still popular...

The output sacrificed for 75% evasion (overextend/splits?) is so little (You're losing a pet, 25% speed, but gaining more attack slots) that you may be giving the concept less credit than it deserves. From the looks of it, it can be viable in a heavy melee/KD build-- if RaO is nerfed.

Irresistable Blow
Bull's Strike
To The Limit!
Crushing Blow

Devastating Hammer
"On Your Knees!"
Lightning Reflexes
Rez Signet

Compared to a thumper, you're really just switching TF for Reflexes, and losing a pet (2 slots) and gaining 1 more attack (1 slot).

Dutch Masterr · Dec 02, 2006, 05:38 PM // 17:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

Who in serious gameplay doesn't rely on a monk to heal them?

errr, all players should have some of their own healing skills, or have a very coordinated team....i dont know about you, but i wont be caught on any character in any situation without SOME self healing