Curse

Loki Seiguro · Nov 27, 2006, 12:27 AM // 00:27

heal for free think of them doing all the fighting and taking all the punches as a payment

Glints Bane · Nov 27, 2006, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effigy

Some of you need to put down the cross and realize that your time is valuable. If there are no other monks around and people are offering money, take it! Or don't. But don't feel obligated to help people for free just because you're the only monk. Why would you feel obligated to do something you don't want to do, in a game no less, simply because you're a monk?

People keep saying that others shouldn't have to pay for a monk's help, but why should the monk have to pay (in time wasted) just for others' benefit? You guys sell yourselves short.

Nicely said...Nicely said. Although in my first post i needed the quest

.

«Ripskin · Nov 27, 2006, 02:31 AM // 02:31

I monk for a living. I'd love to have tips, but sadly, everyone on gw is a cheapass

(

Nivryx · Nov 27, 2006, 03:26 AM // 03:26

I like what effigy has been saying, one of the few just not agreeing with the general population. I was getting quite bored reading over this thread as its pretty much the same thing (myself included).

I've started to think of it more as a service like running and soloing missions. I mean, sure, other people have to do their part still, but its all done for convienence (sp?). is thirsty river really that hard? no, but people are still willing to pay the what, 5k? for someone to run it with their IWAY or non IWAY builds. Sanctum Cay is another example, it really isn't that hard either, people just don't want to spend the time fighting through it. Running to droks, people are now paying what? 5k+? simply because they don't want to take the time to go through the entire campaign, or go as far as Lion's arch and travel to K-center for the same armor. It's all done to save time, like it has been said, monking for money saves time waiting for a monk.

I went to Hell's Precipice the other day when I needed it still, 5 groups immediately invited me, all with one slot left needed another monk, and this isn't largely uncommon in places like hells and THK, though normally not as bad as 5 groups, but i'd venture to say still enough to create impatience.

its just a question of how much you're willing to pay for a convienence

Xpl0iter · Nov 27, 2006, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effigy

People keep saying that others shouldn't have to pay for a monk's help, but why should the monk have to pay (in time wasted) just for others' benefit? You guys sell yourselves short.

I am wondering. Why were u there any way? Munching Popcorns? I do not recall mission towns having trading sessions for either weapon or material, neither any special merchants or related NPCs, so why?

If time waste is such a big issue for you, why are you wasting ur time in a MISSION town on a GAME where you have nothing really to do?

Just Wondering Effigy, Just Wondering.

To every one else, Get ur groupies to use HEROS, they will learn how to use them ONLY IF THEY USE THEM. I never use Actual Monks, Used to Henchies and now Heros. If any thing big, pull a guildy, They are better at times, they don't ask awkward questions like " How much am i going to get paid for my time? ".

As far as the CONVINENCE issue goes, HENCHIES work. I have done every single mission with henchies. The only reason i see for having a monk in ur group is to fix a problem, like a miss pull.
Even then, henchies can still take the abuse to some extent. If someone in your group is being a Leeroy, Do a /resign, and check the size of their tush with a kick.
Leeroys USUALY tend to show their traits at the beginning.

Monks, Remember, You can't do missions alone either. Just because you can get a group easier, doesn't mean you are the only one who calls the shot just because you heal.

Maybe Supply over demand issues? Maybe.

Well, that is where people really need to LEARN how to play their game and stop relying over others.

@Loki
Very Well Said.

Regardz
Darkest Elementalist.

Nivryx · Nov 27, 2006, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xpl0iter

If time waste is such a big issue for you, why are you wasting ur time in a MISSION town on a GAME where you have nothing really to do?

Just Wondering Effigy, Just Wondering.

and why do i bond dunes of despair bonus at least 2-3 times a week? quite simply, i enjoy to do it, plus its usually in a 30 min timeslot that i can't do anything else but RA or farm (which i loathe) with. i don't charge to do it because i enjoy doing it, but i wouldn't blame someone else if they did charge.

Effigy · Nov 27, 2006, 10:09 PM // 22:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xpl0iter

I am wondering. Why were u there any way? Munching Popcorns? I do not recall mission towns having trading sessions for either weapon or material, neither any special merchants or related NPCs, so why?

If time waste is such a big issue for you, why are you wasting ur time in a MISSION town on a GAME where you have nothing really to do?

Just Wondering Effigy, Just Wondering.

My point was in reference to people saying they'd choose to help a group for free, even though the didn't need to mission, just because the group offered them money and they felt guilty about accepting it. I'm saying that a monk's time is just as valuable as anyone else's and they should feel obligated to work for free when they gain no benefit from it.

The same is true of the runners you see camping in Beacon's Perch at all hours. They aren't there to do quests or look pretty (well, maybe to look pretty

), they're there to provide a service in exchange for payment. If warriors can market their services, why shouldn't monks be able to do the same? If people don't want to pay, no one is forcing them to. The bottom line is that when you say it's "wrong" to charge money as a monk, you're saying that a monk's time and effort is not valuable. That is what I take issue with.

Xpl0iter · Nov 28, 2006, 04:37 AM // 04:37

because u can't have henches run for u. Something that can only be done with a certain build by a certain person alone for moving u to one place from another is called RUNNING.

I still say it is wrong to ask for money because: The group can do the thing on its own, they just need support.

Runner can do entire thing on its OWN without them moving their tushes.

As far as i see, any thing where other people have to work is not considered being "Ran or soloed"

Just like when other people in certain missions need a nuker or a ranger, i bring the character to aid them, Not to mention i could charge for it. I do not see how charging is justified in a place where rest of the group is working with you.

As far as i go, Staying on game, and going to a mission place which you do not need is a bit awkward, don't you agree? If your not running the mission on your own, don't bother charging. It can't be justified. It is as simple as that. Go to thirsty river and spend sometime. If you help the runner do the mission, even though he is running YOUR character, how does your paying the runner justifies?

Zephyr Rose · Nov 28, 2006, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Of course the time of monks is valuable. They don't have to make the same decision I did. I just thought it was sad that someone offered to pay me. I guess I'm just one of those people who doesn't mind dropping what I'm doing to help someone out. But I'm not saying everyone should do that.

It's just my opinion that asking for payment to play your class is in bad taste. But if there's money to be had, guaranteed people will do it. To each their own....

I do apologize if something I said offended you though, Effigy.

Effigy · Nov 28, 2006, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Well, there's a difference between wanting to do something and feeling you have to or should do it. I help guildies and sometimes even PUGs for free all the time, but I'm not doing because I feel obligated. In truth, I don't think there's much of a market for paid monking, but I'm arguing this on an ethical level.

@Xpl0iter: There are any number of reasons a monk would be in a mission zone. I farm missions quite frequently.

Quote:

I still say it is wrong to ask for money because: The group can do the thing on its own, they just need support.

You contradicted yourself in the same sentence. If they can do it on their own, why would they need support? Obviously they can't do it on their own if they're begging every monk in the area to help them out.

Running or soloing missions is different in that the runner does all the work, but they are essentially providing the same service: helping someone accomplish what that person can't accomplish on their own, in exchange for money. If people could complete these missions without a monk's help, there would be no need for blind invites or begging or offering payment. Regardless of whether the other party members contribute to the task, they are asking for a service from the monk. If the monk has no other incentive to do that task, then accepting payment seems like a perfectly reasonable option.

Effendi Westland · Nov 29, 2006, 09:54 AM // 09:54

I'll pay a monk to help out on a mission.

He'd have to allow me to go afk though, payment afterwards.

Xpl0iter · Nov 29, 2006, 05:18 PM // 17:18

I assume eles and every other class that deals dmg is providing a service in some way, pay them all. If it is the number you are speaking of, then your ethical point won't work with this. Ethics apply to every single profession.

I did not contridict my self, your looking at it from a biased point of view, hence making a meaning which contridicts the idea in that line it self.

Support Is not Equal to Running or Soloing..
Soloing and Running are done by the person on their own, they do not need YOU to finish it. They can do it on their OWN even if they are the sole person in their team.

MONK is a SUPPORT, he can't do the mission on his own, or run it. As long as this remains true, i do not find this ethical for charging purposes. If he runs it with Henchies, its LEGIT.

My Opinion remains the same, and i guess You and I percieve ethics differently.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effendi Westland

I'll pay a monk to help out on a mission.

He'd have to allow me to go afk though, payment afterwards.

Well Said. Hence my point.

Regardz

Effigy · Nov 29, 2006, 07:06 PM // 19:06

Look up "supply and demand," then get back to me.

When did I ever say running/soloing is equal to support? I specifically said they are different, but similar in that the monk/runner/soloer is providing a service to the other players. If players can't get that service for free, then they have the option of paying for it. This is the same in all three cases.

I never said a monk could do the mission by himself (even though he usually can), but that's beside the point. The fact is, most people want a monk in their group. If the monk doesn't want to join them, offering payment may be a way to persuade him to join. If they don't want to pay, they can try to do it without the monk, with heroes/henchies or whatever.

I'm not talking about paying monks who actually need to do a mission. I'm talking about monks that don't need or want to do a mission, and therefore have no reason to do it other than for profit.

Xpl0iter · Nov 29, 2006, 07:23 PM // 19:23

If you mean all by himself as HIM alone, then no, i disagree.
To do something on your own, you need henchies. To keep henchies alive, pay attention to their health, hence, less time to work here and there. Best option is an ele who controls the henche since most of the ele bars have recharging time envolved.

Supply and demand?
Ever had that thought passing ur mind in droks where every one charged 2-3k and had nearly 50 runners most of the time doing droks run?

I do not need to look up supply and demand. I mentioned it way before you did, hence stop teaching. Secondly, pay attention to what others have said. If a monk is doing equal amount of work as any other character in mission, it is not justified, regardless how neatly you place it infront of me.

Pursuading a person is different than Charging at your own will. There is a difference, shall i tell you to look it up?

Effigy · Nov 29, 2006, 07:38 PM // 19:38

By "himself," I mean a monk with heroes and/or henchies. Yes, a setup like this can be used to complete most or all of the game. A monk is more capable of doing this than some other classes because monking is a more delicate business than msot roles. AI characters can spam attacks skills and spells just fine and they are godlike at interrupting, but when it comes to intelligently healing/protting teammates and managing energy, they are terrible. As a player monk, I can let them do the killing while I focus on keeping them alive.

My comment about supply and demand was in reference to your claim that all classes should be paid for helping on a mission. The point is, most classes are not in that short of supply or that high of demand. Warriors and eles are everywhere. If one of them refuses to join your group, you can just as easily invite a dervish or a necro. Monks, on the other hand, are relatively few and are in disproportionately high demand. Skilled monks are even fewer, and these are exactly the type of players who tend not to want to join a random PUG. Thus, their services are (potentially) marketable. This is less true of the other classes, although I wouldn't be that surprised to see one of them get paid either.

Regardless of whether you mentioned supply and demand before, you don't seem to be grasping the essence of my argument here. Not all classes are in the same supply or the same demand, thus not all of them have the same "market value" if they wanted to be paid for their help.

Finally, there are many methods of persuasion. Offering payment is one of these methods. I don't understand how you could deny that fact.

Xpl0iter · Nov 29, 2006, 07:56 PM // 19:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effigy

By "himself," I mean a monk with heroes and/or henchies. Yes, a setup like this can be used to complete most or all of the game. A monk is more capable of doing this than some other classes because monking is a more delicate business than msot roles. AI characters can spam attacks skills and spells just fine and they are godlike at interrupting, but when it comes to intelligently healing/protting teammates and managing energy, they are terrible. As a player monk, I can let them do the killing while I focus on keeping them alive.

Your forgetting one of the most important ingredient of Henchway in missions.
YOU need to PLACE your heros and henchies properly, which you seems to have been missing in your argument. Ensign has mentioned it before in his posts in various other threads, an ele can do that job probably the best.
Unless otherwise, i have taken his meaning wrong.
For a monk who is healing every thing, positioning is definetly not the best option for a Monk in most cases. Neither meele based characters.
Casters other than monk see things differently and they have more time to view the foes and observe than a monk or meele character does.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effigy

By comment about supply and demand was in reference to your claim that all classes should be paid for helping on a mission. The point is, most classes are not in that short of supply or that high of demand. Warriors and eles are everywhere. If one of them refuses to join your group, you can just as easily invite a dervish or a necro. Monks, on the other hand, are relatively few and are in disproportionately high demand. Skilled monks are even fewer, and these are exactly the type of players who tend not to want to join a random PUG. Thus, their services are (potentially) markettable. This is less true of the other classes, although I wouldn't be that surprised to see one of them get paid either.

There are classes which are needed in certain missions exclusively. Those classes play a very very important role in missions, so yes, Supply and demand works with most classes.
Eles and Warriors are every where? I see necros and Warriors along with Dervishes and Paragons every where. Not as many eles as you claim.
Most people took their monks through nightfall as their first character just to get groups easily. Recall the early few weeks where you would see monks, and new classes nearly "Every where".

As the person said above, if the person is such highly skilled, he or she should be allowed to go afk since he is paying for the service he purchased. I do not see how their "skill" and "Pontential" alone is allowing the mission to be done.
People who claim that heros do not heal properly need to learn how to setup their heros. I for one, know for a fact how efficient they can get if you lead your group wisely. I mostly henche and hero missions, as an ele ofcourse.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effigy

Regardless of whether you mentioned supply and demand before, you don't seem to be grasping the essence of my argument here. Not all classes are in the same supply or the same demand, thus not all of them have the same "market value" if they wanted to be paid for their help.

I am definetly grasping the concept of your argument here, but what you are failed in realizing is that our arguments are "Biased". You are leading a view which is very different than what i do. I do not see how me dictating my view makes me not able to grasp your concepts.
Having not the same "market value" is much different than having no concept of valuation for certain professions though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Effigy

Finally, there are many methods of persuasion. Offering payment is one of these methods. I don't understand how you could deny that fact.

There are not many methods of persuasion. if there are, kindly list them. Most noted ones are "Begging" or "Paying", ONLY if the two players are stranger to each other. If there are others, the percentage of those methods being applied is far too insiginificant for this discussion.

As Effendi Westland said:

Quote:

I'll pay a monk to help out on a mission.

He'd have to allow me to go afk though, payment afterwards.

Pick Me · Nov 29, 2006, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Does this mean it can work the other way too?

I've seen Monks saying, "monk lfg"

Can I go with my guild and pickup that monk and ask for x gold for each member?

Gotta love people in Canthas though. "Monk lfg for masters", and "glf monk for masters" in the same district. Merge the two together and both ask for money for their services.

Well, I think rare materials is better for payment than money, but everyone has money, but not rare materials.

The best barter is monk asks in lieu of payment ALL drops. Monk has armor, weapon and off-hand, a backpack and 2 bags. Ready to fill his/her bags with goodies. When the drops are for others, they must pickup and give to monk. Else Monk can just leave. This means possible greens.

The Monk becomes a greedy, but intelligent henchie.

Effigy · Nov 29, 2006, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Alright, I'll explain this once more. Monks are, more or less, needed to complete any quest/mission that's even moderately difficult. Is the same true of Elementalists? Necros? Assassins? Rangers? Ritualists? Paragons? Dervishes? Mesmers? No. Warriors maybe, but even then you have other options for tanks, like dervishes, which are in overabundance. Thus, monks have more cards in their hand when marketing their services for payment.

I fully realise that most players wouldn't pay a monk to help them. I never claimed they would. However, there are a fair number that would. I have seen this with my own eyes, as have many other people. This isn't some pet theory of mine--it's fact. Thus, I'm not arguing whether or not people would pay, but whether or not it's acceptable for a monk to charge. Hence, I'm arguing it "on an ethical level," as I already stated.

The reason someone would pay another person for help, generally, is a lack of better alternatives. If an elementalist or necro tried to charge money to help in a mission, I would laugh at them. Not for trying to charge, but for failing to see that they are expendable. I can replace that person with just about any other class and finish the mission without a problem. This is especially true when you consider the skill level of most players. Now what happens when a monk tries to charge money for his help? You can replace him with a hero or hench, but the class itself is largely irreplaceable. Theoretically, you can get by without a primary monk if you use self-heals and support characters like restoration rits, motivation paragons, and/or E/Mo healers. The reality, on the other hand, is that most players aren't knowledgeable or skilled enough to make use of these alternatives. So, they need a monk's help. If monks are in short supply and the only available ones want payment for their services, the group has limited options.

When people say they'd only pay a monk if they were allowed to go afk, they are not being reasonable. You can't expect someone to do what isn't being offered. If you tell a droks runner, "I'll pay you to run me, but only if you powerlevel my character as well," you are being unreasonable by expecting something that was not part of the bargain. Thus, if you pay a monk to help with a mission, you are paying them for what they can offer (help), not what they can't offer (doing the mission solo while you sit afk).

Please, if we're going to have this discussion let's be reasonable about it.

i Valinor · Nov 30, 2006, 02:21 AM // 02:21

really it comes down to as a monk i need the other players to do the damage and deal with the threats as much as they need me to heal them. sure i can take henchies and get most any mission or quest done but its not really fun. i play a monk because i enjoy playing with people, as soon as a person is charging for their efforts it changes the game to "work". I dont know about most of you but i already work a 46 hour week i dont really need to put in overtime when i get home. If you find yourself in a position that you have so little gold in the game that you are wanting to charge i would recomend starting to chip away at your exploration title, the coin you get for clearing each area is pretty descent and often you will find the item/mods/runes you are looking for or at least you will find somthing worth selling. and you get the added benifit of comming home to "work" for gold.

iV

p.s. UW and FoW runes are great for generating money i pull in 5-10k a run before i start selling any items to other players.

Rera · Nov 30, 2006, 05:36 AM // 05:36

There is nothing ethically wrong for anyone, regardless of class, to charge for joining a party. I never charge, but this is due to practical reasons rather than ethical ones.

There is no point comparing this to drok running, or to talk about how much work the monk does relative to other players, because that is all irrelevant. The question of whether anyone would actually pay you to join them is also irrelevant. Why? Because the key point is that you, the player, decide how you want to spend your time. There is no reason to join a group for free if you would rather charge for it instead.

Consider the extreme scenario: 7/8 group LF monk to go, with only one other monk in town. Would you argue that the lone monk is obligated to join the 7/8 party for free, simply because they need her? Would it be wrong for the monk to charge a fee in this scenario? If so, why? Would it be wrong for the monk to simply leave the town?