Curse

Arkantos · Nov 15, 2006, 03:02 PM // 15:02

This build is mainly PvP, but it has its uses in PvE.

Attributes

Divine Favor - 12 + 1 + 1/2/3
Protection Prayers - 8 + 1
Healing Prayers - 8 + 1
Earth Prayers - 7

[skill]Blessed Light[/skill]
[skill]Signet of Devotion[/skill]
[skill]Gift of Health[/skill]
[skill]Reversal of Fortune[/skill]
[skill]Shield of Absorption[/skill][skill]Protective Spirit[/skill][skill]Spirit Bond[/skill]
[skill]Mend Condition[/skill]
[skill]Vital Boon[/skill]
[skill]Conviction[/skill]

Discuss.

moko · Nov 15, 2006, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Veil of Thorns for Vital Boon. - all i gotta say.

probably not as effective as /A with the current skills you have, but that might change with Viel of Thorns. sure, i costs more energy, but crippled > extra hp with random health you might gain; at the wrong situation most likely..

Carth` · Nov 15, 2006, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Why not Aura of Thorns instead of Veil of Thorns? Aura works like Return in that it cripples adjacent foes, with the same recharge as well. Doesn't teleport you though, but it is cheaper. I prefer not to bring too many 10 energy spells on a monk.

I think it could be a good alternative to Mo/A. +24 armour is similar to taking half damage like Dark Escape, and Aura of Thorns is similar to Return. Similar... but not really better. Return is better than Aura of Thorns and Dark Escape is better than Conviction. I'd need to see some advantage of Mo/D to want to use it.

There are other Dervish skills that you could add in to help keep you alive, but the more of those you put in, the less you have to heal your allies.

pah01 · Nov 17, 2006, 04:21 PM // 16:21

First off, Your monk skill choices are not so good - or at least the way you presented them was not so good.

Blessed Light, reversal and gift of health are absolutely needed. The next choice is between spirit Bond and prot spirit - and you only bring one. In a two monk situation - one brings prot spirit and the other brings bond.

1. Shield of absorbtion doesnt replace rof as its recharge is too much to even consider on the same level. Consider replacing siggy of devotion perhaps but I prefer siggy as its a nice heal and you need that.

2. Nothing wrong with mend condition - but as monk you are a priority target so consider mending touch - very nice.

3. dervish skills are a good idea but cast time on return being 1/4 second and dark escape reducing *all* damage means that /a is always going to be a superior choice.

My three cents

Joe

Arkantos · Nov 17, 2006, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

1. Shield of absorbtion doesnt replace rof as its recharge is too much to even consider on the same level. Consider replacing siggy of devotion perhaps but I prefer siggy as its a nice heal and you need that.

I never said SoA replaced RoF. Look at the post again.

Rera · Nov 17, 2006, 05:21 PM // 17:21

Mending touch is touch-range, making it terrible condition removal for a monk. What happens when you need to pull blind off the warrior? Bring mend condition if the other monk has condition removal, dismiss condition otherwise.

Shield of absorption is good vs. the current thumper meta, but it's no replacement for Prot Spirit or Spirit Bond.

The problem with this Mo/D build is that the /D skills basically serve the same functions as /A skills - except that the /A skills are superior. Furthermore, a Mo/D is forced to spec 14/9/9/7, whereas a Mo/A can run 14/10/10/3.

moko · Nov 17, 2006, 05:47 PM // 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

I never said SoA replaced RoF. Look at the post again.

it confused me the first time as well; dont use the skill icons in a row, list them rather; its less confusion.

first time i looked at it i didnt notice the 1. before Blight, thinking 5a was RoF, 5b was SoA and 5c was Prot Spirit. looking at the second line makes you realise it, though; still easy to overlook. :P

EDIT: bum deleted his post :P <--- forum is buggy? x.x the post was gone for me..meh, nvm then :P

Quote:

Shield of absorption is good vs. the current thumper meta, but it's no replacement for Prot Spirit or Spirit Bond.

yeah it might be nice against the RaO spam, but honestly; RaO is probably one of the weakest things people are running lately. /A is plenty to go against them - id always prefer spirit bond for elementalist or shadow prison wars, really. altho preveil pwns them as well, so..

Kaida the Heartless · Nov 17, 2006, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Veil of Thorns costs too much energy (IMO) for it's duration. If you wanted to burn 10 energy, just run Stoneflesh aura, but who would do that?!

There is no doubt that in PvE, Mo/D wins the battle, but I think that PvP-wise, it is a matter of opinion.
D is going to win the DPS pressure fight, but A is going to win the Spike. I also think that the choice depends on the rest of your build.

Boon monks may get a little better of a synergy from D than A. Dismiss conditions also synergizes well with D secondary. D also has the added advantage of about 70 Max health, which can save one from a spike. The random heal is also nice since... 140 for 5 is pretty darn efficient.

Assassin secondary wins with evasion. Whereas the D secondary is going to get hit more, the A secondary is going to move faster or teleport away. The A is also probably slighty more energy efficient. Also, they are much better against spikes with thier Half Damage buff than the D with thier 70 Health.

I think it's a matter of opinion. I've seen alot of guilds move into builds with Harrier's Grasp characters (such as the ranger for example). I believe that a good ranger can keep conditions spread and keep warriors cripped (for the most part), making the A somewhat less effective. Then again, A secondary is tried and true. The choice is yours!

Also, never ever ever ever ever ever replace RoF with anything! You shouldn't even consider it! RoF is one of the most powerful heals in the game, and it is also one of the only ways a BL has to catch a spike. I usually run a bar that looks like this:
Blessed Light, RoF, Gift, Sig of Devo, PS, Dismiss Conditions, Vital, Conviction
Given the current metagame, it's probably safe to replace either PS or SB with SoA, but I would be somewhat hesitant with this.

On a side note, does anyone know if the reduction is applied before or after PS?

sunoke · Nov 17, 2006, 10:45 PM // 22:45

The reduction of SoA is applied after PS. My 105 hp monk gets first 5, then zero damage from attacks.

pah01 · Nov 18, 2006, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rera

Mending touch is touch-range, making it terrible condition removal for a monk. What happens when you need to pull blind off the warrior? Bring mend condition if the other monk has condition removal, dismiss condition otherwise.

Monks dont remove blinds of warriors. What you want is the ability to get conditions of yourself fast - I have been using touch in GVG for a bit and I like it because it helps a lot with split surviavabilty, though I probably will go back to mend condition after a bit.

Dismiss condition is only good if there are enchants around so you get the heal. Otherwise its trash.

Sorry Arkantos - I looked at your skillbar all wrong.

Prot spirit / Spirit Bond for GVG. Shield of absorbtion doesnt get on the bar with those unless you take out siggy IMO. Unless you only run one dervish skill.

Edit: Sunoke - cant you recognise that the build there is definitly not of the lets kill stupid monsters kind...

Joe

ubard · Nov 18, 2006, 09:52 PM // 21:52

i think sunoke was just answering kaida's question there sir.

i was looking at alternate defensive builds for monks a bit ago, one of the things i saw in dervish was Armor of Sanctity. could work in some sort of mass condition build, but otherwise not really worth it.

i havn't really tested Vital Boon or Conviction on a monk yet, but they seem like they would fit nicely, although they probably don't have all the flexability of /A.

dark escape reduces ALL damage.

return, aside from being a great way to avoid a spike, is just GREAT when you need a fast way to get past a bodyblock or just hop around quickly for whatever reason.

dervish secondary could be useful at replacing the dark escape portion of the defense, but return is just so great. Especially in RA, on any map that has any sort of raised/lowered portion it's amazing.

sunoke · Nov 19, 2006, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by pah01

Edit: Sunoke - cant you recognise that the build there is definitly not of the lets kill stupid monsters kind...

Joe

Sorry if I offended you by bringing my PvE farming experiences in to play. I thought it was relevant because Kaida the Heartless asked if SoA was applied before or after PS.

Kais Unduli · Nov 19, 2006, 03:01 PM // 15:01

I had a similar idea going Mo/D, using Veil of Thorns instead of Vital boon. Haven't really tried it yet in pvp or pve, but I'm guessing I'd drop prot spirit/spirit bond for a rez.

Nicolas Elensar · Nov 20, 2006, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Quote:

Monks dont remove blinds of warriors.

lolol

Mend Ailment will > mending touch in any 4 vs 4 scenario and Mend Condition is the condition removal spell of choice for anything else.

XvArchonvX · Nov 20, 2006, 06:54 AM // 06:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolas Elensar

lolol

Mend Ailment will > mending touch in any 4 vs 4 scenario and Mend Condition is the condition removal spell of choice for anything else.

Now that the skill Dismiss Conditions is available, why would you ever run Mend Ailment? I have seen some builds that run Mend Condition and Mending Touch together, but I personally see that as being a bit of overkill unless you don't have someone with Extinguish in the group (assuming PvP).

moko · Nov 20, 2006, 07:16 AM // 07:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolas Elensar

lolol

Mend Ailment will > mending touch in any 4 vs 4 scenario and Mend Condition is the condition removal spell of choice for anything else.

you dont play that much TA, do you?

first off all, theres no real reason to run Ailment; now that Dismiss exists, its a better self condition removal that Ailment, taking into consideration that there are enchantments around.

secondly; Mesmers, or even Eles, hell even Necros, run (or more likely, should or do run - if requested if the team is smart) Draw Conditions, which is the main "Blind" remover for Warriors (well, lately its flooded with RaOs).

Touch is great for yourself; your the most important player as monk in a 4 vs 4, without you the others will die quicker.

if theres a Drawing caster, you might as well take Touch if you are playing Blight; for ZB (which is dominating 4 vs 4 :P) its out of question; you really need Dismiss (or Ailment if you know there arent many enchants on and you cant heal without the +health that Ailment would heal for sure rather than the conditional heal from Dismiss).

please, dont try to argue with pah01, he knows what hes saying, and i can bet that he > you. >_>

P.S, try checking the ladder for his guild.

TheTrueTroop · Nov 20, 2006, 07:29 AM // 07:29

The problem with the build u suggested, is that you are trying to design a monk that is able to have a high rate of self surviability.

like the Mo/A

now keepin in mind that u have absolutely no energy management, the possibilities for any sort of long term engagement of the enemy goes down.

vs the Mo/A at LEAST yo uhave sig of devotion, which if used correctly, can be semi-decent e management with a monks un-hindered energy regen

the problem you have, is you are creating a monk build with conviction, which for this to work, you need to have an enchant on you (doesnt work bad with vital boon though i guess) and u need to be taken dmg.

and if you are taken damage, without a snare, teleport, or speed boost on your bar you have no singular way to mitigate dmg other then thru conviction

which will lead to you having to use your monk skills to heal yourself

however when using Return / Dark Escape

using those two skills alone will greatly reduce the amount of the heals that YOU would need to cast on YOURSELF

if you dont go a Monk with energy management, i.e elite form, you have to answer the following questions:

1. would i be open to warrior training?
in your case, if the warriors/ anything high dps, attacks your midline, or since this is pve builds, attacks your heros, it is going to drain your energy, with no way to regain it back

2. in a long term battle, or anything that requires you constantly monk for extended periods of time, say for .... 10 minutes with you being spiked every 2 minutes, how does your survivability look?

it looks grim, because conviction requires you to be attacked to be effective, which means lower energy on your part, with no way to get away and no way to regain that energy

edit: i just seen u have sig of devo, sorry for saying u didnt, but the case for the two utility skills still stand

moko · Nov 20, 2006, 05:02 PM // 17:02

tried various stuff today, Aura of Thorns, Vital Boon, Conviction and Fleeting Stability

those are the skills from earth prayers you can take into consideration. havnt found a nice combo; but i cant say i really like it.

though, i looked at Wind Prayers..

Lyssas's Haste & Psious Restoration look like a good option to me.

ill test some more, but i think ill stay to /A

though, i havnt been using them with Blight (sucks for Arenas) - been using ZB with them.

pah01 · Nov 20, 2006, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nicolas Elensar

lolol

Mend Ailment will > mending touch in any 4 vs 4 scenario and Mend Condition is the condition removal spell of choice for anything else.

Monks dont remove blinds of warriors. Sorry I have to repeat myself. In TA someone else will do it the same as GVG. In RA I actually tend to do it with blessed light because a lot of the time the warrior needed a topup anyhow.

Mend ailment is not definitly greater than mending touch in 4v4, there are many times when you need to remove two conditions of yourself to get rid of a deepwound.

I have gone back to mend condition for gvg but I am much less splittable than before.

Also please think before posting.

Sam

Nicolas Elensar · Nov 21, 2006, 05:44 AM // 05:44

Quote:

please, dont try to argue with pah01, he knows what hes saying, and i can bet that he > you. >_>

Hey, you still have a bit of brown on your nose

Quote:

Monks dont remove blinds of warriors. Sorry I have to repeat myself. In TA someone else will do it the same as GVG. In RA I actually tend to do it with blessed light because a lot of the time the warrior needed a topup anyhow.

Oh yeah.. I mean, Blight is extremely spammable specially with the /A's sweet energy management. Not.

Quote:

Mend ailment is not definitly greater than mending touch in 4v4, there are many times when you need to remove two conditions of yourself to get rid of a deepwound.

Your point being..? I prefer to keep my whole party clean than to leave them all vulnerable to not only blind but other pressure conditions that can and will screw you up. Plus if they cover deep wound, you get a big healing boost with mend ailment when you take the cover condition off leaving you plenty of time to get DW off.

Guess it's personal preference..

Quote:

Also please think before posting.

Oh I did. Just because i don't share your mending touch preference doesn't means I'm wrong